Question about Calvinism

[adforhim]

Hello everyone, my name is Aaron.
I have been studying Calvinism as of late and have had a hard time understanding the third point of the five main points(T.U.L.I.P.)
"Limited Attonement"
I am not sure I understnad this point. My question is this, What is meant by attonement, is it salvation or is it Christ's death on the cross?

If anyone could help me out, I would greatly appreciate it.


In Him,
Aaron

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

It is my understanding that "Limited atonement" is the belief or interpretation that Christ died only for the Elect, those chosen in Christ before their birth (or creation of the world for that matter). He did not pay the price for sin of those who are not the Elect (and who do not have saving faith in Christ).

Unlimited atonement would mean that Christ died for even those who reject Him and go to Hell.

See this link: http://www.gospeloutreach.net/limited_atonement.html

Jeff

 

[Kristen287]

Like Jeff said, Limited Atonement means that Christ’s death on the cross atoned for the sins of the elect, and not for the sins of the whole world. The Calvinistic line of thinking tends to be that if Christ died for the sins of the whole world (not just the elect), then He would have atoned for the sin of unbelief, and in that case, everyone, including non-believers would go to Heaven.

 

[Glorthac]

If I'm understanding correctly, Aaron is trying to understand the atonement itself, not so much the universality of it.

Aaron, in Calvinism the atonement is substitutionary. That is, the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) so somebody has to die. Either you, or somebody who doesn't have any sin (Jesus). Therefore, when Jesus died, he replaced you and took your punishment.
So, if Jesus took everybody's sins, then everybody would go to heaven. But if Jesus died only for the elect, only they would go to heaven.

 

[adforhim]

I understand that. But if the word atonement is defined as the removal of sins, then I believe that it is limited. (the Bible is clear that not all will come to Christ) However, if the word is defined as Christs death, not having to do with the removal of sins, then I believe that it is not limited. (The Bible clearly states that Christ died for all, He doesn't save all but He died for all)

This differentiation is what I am trying to clarify. Can anyone help?

 

[chrisnu]

Calvinism teaches that the elect are guaranteed salvation, and it is Christ's death which procured and guaranteed their salvation. Thus, the atonement must be limited to the elect. Four-point Calvinists (who do not hold to Limited Atonement) would say that Christ's atonement was provided for everyone, but that none would have faith on their own, and thus God chose to elect some to saving faith.

 

[Glorthac]

I understand that. But if the word atonement is defined as the removal of sins, then I believe that it is limited. (the Bible is clear that not all will come to Christ) However, if the word is defined as Christs death, not having to do with the removal of sins, then I believe that it is not limited. (The Bible clearly states that Christ died for all, He doesn't save all but He died for all)

This differentiation is what I am trying to clarify. Can anyone help?

If you make a seperation between "removal of sins" and "Christ's death", you're an Arminian. But Calvinists say they are inseperable, so if you say they are inseperable, then you're a Calvinist.

I take it you think they are seperate things, so you're Arminian. However, the Calvinist would respond: "So Christ can die for someone and their sins aren't removed?"

 

[Epiphoskei]

I understand that. But if the word atonement is defined as the removal of sins, then I believe that it is limited. (the Bible is clear that not all will come to Christ) However, if the word is defined as Christs death, not having to do with the removal of sins, then I believe that it is not limited. (The Bible clearly states that Christ died for all, He doesn't save all but He died for all)

This differentiation is what I am trying to clarify. Can anyone help?

The question the Calvinist would have here is: if Christ's death for someone does not remove his sins, what does it do, and how is it "for" him?

The Calvinist sees the verses surrounding the universiality of the atonement as indicating that no racial or ethnic affiliation can close off the way of salvation. The atonement is for everyone as opposed to just for Jews, as the Old Covenant operated. But that does not mean that God actually effected a substitutionary payment for everyone's sins that reconciles everyone to Him. "Atonement" comes from a french word meaning "to make one" and translates a Hebrew word meaning "to cover up sins" and a Greek word meaning "to remove an offense between a man and a deity." We do not believe any of these three terms can be properly applied to anyone who will not actually have his sins covered and be reconciled to the Father.

 

[adforhim]

//The Calvinist sees the verses surrounding the universiality of the atonement as indicating that no racial or ethnic affiliation can close off the way of salvation. The atonement is for everyone as opposed to just for Jews, as the Old Covenant operated. But that does not mean that God actually effected a substitutionary payment for everyone's sins that reconciles everyone to Him.//

I agree with this. I believe that christs death and the forgivness of sins cannot be seperated. You cannot have one without the other.
I think what I was asking for was clarification on what it means for Christ to die for all. The quote above really helped my understanding.

Thank you.

 

[adforhim]

//I take it you think they are seperate things, so you're Arminian.//

No, I'm not an Arminian. I would call myself a Calvinist except for the doctrine of Limited Atonement which, up untill this point, I have not understood.

 

[mannysee]

Hebrews explains things pretty well.
Read through it and ponder on the work of the high priest.

Hint:-
In the OT the high priest made atonement for Israel (who existed as a group within the world).
In the NT the high priest (Jesus) made atonement for ????

 

[Foghorn]

Hello everyone, my name is Aaron.
I have been studying Calvinism as of late and have had a hard time understanding the third point of the five main points(T.U.L.I.P.)
"Limited Attonement"
I am not sure I understnad this point. My question is this, What is meant by attonement, is it salvation or is it Christ's death on the cross?

If anyone could help me out, I would greatly appreciate it.


In Him,
Aaron

Christ death on the cross was an atoning sacrifice.

 

[Easystreet]

1First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time. 7For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. 8Therefore I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and dissension.

The doctrines as taught by John Calvin are false. The passages above clearly teach that Atonement is for everyone. For atonement to be effective for anyone they must believe. When a person hears the Gospel and the Holy Spirit convicts them they either believe or not.

 

[Christ's Armor Bearer]

I found this in another thread which I feel explains Unlimited Atonement rather nicely:

"In fact your doctrine [Calvinism], blinds you to the most powerrful reality of the true gospel itself.... That truth being that salvation, healing and deliverance can all be found in the atonement. That Christ came to SAVE ALL, to HEAL ALL, to DELIVER ALL.

For further proof, you need to research the greek word "SOZO". By definition it means to be restored to it's original state, to be made completely whole. Whenever you read about the ministry of Christ in the four gospels, whenever Christ forgave, healed or delivered someone, one word was used to describe all three. That word is "SOZO". That is why Christ often forgave the sins of those who came for healing (ie. "Your faith has made you well. Now go and sin no more!"). The reason why we have lost touch with this biblical reality is that neither the Latin or English (nor most other European) languages have one word that can encompass all three (forgiveness, healing & deliverance) thus when the gospels were being interpreted into these languages the interpreters used which ever word, be it forgiveness, healing or deliverance, according to the context of the scenerio found in scripture.

Now go back and re-read the Gospels applying the concept of SOZO to every instance where you find Jesus forgiving someone, healing someone, or delivering someone. Then you will have no doubts to the reality that Jesus came FOR ALL! Jesus even saw fit to honor the faith of gentiles even at a time when the gospel was given primarily to Jews! All we need to do to accept this truth is to receive the fact that 'God so loved the WORLD He gave His only begotten Son and WHOSOEVER shall believe in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.' (John 3:16) This is truly what it means to have saving faith!"