Question about a married man who gets a vasectomy? Is this a sin?

[No Swansong]

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[JunkYardDog]

So scripture doesn't say that children are always a blessing.

The scripture always says that children are a blessing. There are no scriptures qualifying that or saying there are exceptions.

And I have known two that died.

These are two women whose doctors told them that another pregnancy would kill them and they got prgnant anyway and the pregnancy did kill them, right? I'd say you must be in an unusual position to know even one -- much less two. Do you work in an intensive care unit?

I would not say that they consulted a crystal ball. Instead I would say that their 4 years college, 4 years medical school, 3 years residency, and 3 years extended residency in OB/GYN would make them expert enough to trust their judgement. Medicine is not witchcraft.

An educated guess is still a guess. It may have a somewhat greater accuracy rate, but not that much more. Pretending to KNOW the future for sure, may not be witchcraft, but it is close. Maybe you don't know about the "God Complex" doctors regularly suffer from.

You should know what you are talking about before you post. Every one that advised us is strongly committed to pro-life. Actually their main concern was based upon this; knowing that should she become pregnant only an abortion would save her life.

I ran a referral service for women wanting only pro-life doctors. They are extermely rare. Though many will attest they are pro-life, they still refer for abortions or recommend abortifacient birth control. Even then, a number still buy into overpopulation myths and it inflences their advice. They will often view children as interchangeable -- if you "lose" one, you can always have another. These things will greatly influence whether a doctor will serious look at the child (not just the mother) as a patient.

What that it was God's will that mommy die even though a simple procedure that every doctor we consulted recommended could have prevented it? I seriously doubt it would have been God's will to take their mother from them and I am sure that you cannot provide scripture that it would be.

You put words in my mouth. I made a simple statement, you turned it into a debat over something no one said.

 

[White Horse]

I think the conclusion we can reach from this discussion is that it's a sin for my brother JunkYardDog to have his family jewels cut, because he couldn't do it it good faith. As for the rest of us, then I reckon it's between us and our Lord, and if we're all cool with it in that regards, then what anyone else thinks really doesn't matter, eh?

 

[bigat]

I think the conclusion we can reach from this discussion is that it's a sin for my brother JunkYardDog to have his family jewels cut, because he couldn't do it it good faith. As for the rest of us, then I reckon it's between us and our Lord, and if we're all cool with it in that regards, then what anyone else thinks really doesn't matter, eh?

Ok - this post could've come several pages earlier. It would've made for a lot less reading. Geez!!

 

[indra_fanatic]

Babies happen!

Junkyard,

You are right about that--babies DO happen--to atheistic parents, to drug addicts, to unwed teenage mothers, to prostitutes, to people who are having affairs, and to rape victims. Of course those situations are not all the same (in particular, the last one I listed describes an innocent victim), but the point is clear--that whether you or I like it or not, babies are conceived and born every single day in circumstances clearly contrary to God's stated desires for the human family in Scripture.

If, strictly speaking, the conception of infants is always a completely unmitigated blessing, would it be wrong for a teenaged girl to specifically seek out to get pregnant? (Before you say this is absurd, many do. Many girls want to have someone to love them, someone to nurture, the appearance of adulthood, etc). If this view is indeed accurate, then God surely desires, or at least does not mind, teen or other unmarried pregnancies because they honor the supposed commandment to "increase in number".

Junkyard, before we go further, I would like to ask you, in all seriousness, what your denominational background is. I suspect that if we knew that, we would be much more able to understand where you are coming from. Are you a Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox believer? I am not trying to judge you--I'm just curious, and I suspect many others are as well.

Peace, Brian.

 

[JunkYardDog]

Junkyard,

You are right about that--babies DO happen--to atheistic parents, to drug addicts, to unwed teenage mothers, to prostitutes, to people who are having affairs, and to rape victims. Of course those situations are not all the same (in particular, the last one I listed describes an innocent victim), but the point is clear--that whether you or I like it or not, babies are conceived and born every single day in circumstances clearly contrary to God's stated desires for the human family in Scripture.

If, strictly speaking, the conception of infants is always a completely unmitigated blessing, would it be wrong for a teenaged girl to specifically seek out to get pregnant? (Before you say this is absurd, many do. Many girls want to have someone to love them, someone to nurture, the appearance of adulthood, etc). If this view is indeed accurate, then God surely desires, or at least does not mind, teen or other unmarried pregnancies because they honor the supposed commandment to "increase in number".

Junkyard, before we go further, I would like to ask you, in all seriousness, what your denominational background is. I suspect that if we knew that, we would be much more able to understand where you are coming from. Are you a Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox believer? I am not trying to judge you--I'm just curious, and I suspect many others are as well.

Peace, Brian.

With your penchant for study, I recommend "The Ultimate Resource" by Julian Simon. The "resource" in the book is people -- more and more people. I can tell you of all the good that has come from people born to atheists, drug addicts, etc. but the point is what God says. The child is a blessing. The circumstances may not be.

Your scenario might denote sin on the part of the mother, but like a good crop to an atheist farmer, ALL GOOD THINGS COME FROM ABOVE. He blesses the just and the unjust alike.

I fit none of those categories. I am a Christian. Period. I don't conform my beliefs by denomination. I usually tell people that i am an orthodox, fundamental, evangelical charismatic. This is not due to confusion, but because each of those groups has valuable things they have added to me.

 

[No Swansong]

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[No Swansong]

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[JunkYardDog]

And yet it still does not say that children are always a blessing. I believe a previous poster made a good argument that not all children are God's will. So if it is not God's will, how is it a blessing?

There is a huge difference between the circumstances being a blessing and the child being a blessing.

No I have worked in EMS most of my life; one young woman was a family member and the other a lifelong friend of the family. I was intimately aware of their circumstances and accompanied my family member to the Dr.'s office. Would you like to continue to question the honesty of my posts? I could just as easily question the honesty of yours.

Got your feelings on your sleeve, huh? Gee, I thought I just asked you a question about how you were involved and wheter it was becaise of your line of work. You have to acknowledege that such circumstances are rare. It is first of all, rare that a person would go against such advice of doctors because most people tend to think of them as authority figures. For the result AFTER refusing to go along to be death, would even be rarer.

Not how much more? Not enough more that we shouldn't consult or trust a consensus of physicians? It seems that your contention is that 14+ years of education only prepares physicians to make a little better guess than a layman.

Sure, I take their advice into consideration. I also take into account their biases. In the end, a well-informed layman often will have better information simply by virtue of it being his single-minded focus. Ever hear of Lorenzo's Oil?

Actually no ethical physician ever claims to know for sure but each of the 4 we consulted did use terms like "certainly", "without question", and "no doubt".

Can't get more certain than "certainly," nor unquestioningly than "without question."

Can I assume then that you do not utilize Physicians? There is a point at which Christians are called upon to use the brain that God gave them. If you feel that a trained physician is only giving an educated guess then there is nothing I can do to convince you otherwise.
I have a question for you. If you or one of your loved ones were suffering from testicular cancer would you oppose surgery or Chemotherapy? Both of which can cause sterilization, thus rendering you or your family member unable to produce little blessings? Hypothetically I cannot imagine telling one of my sons not to be treated as it may prevent his ability to father children.

Asked and answered as to my consutlation of doctors (or any professional).

Additionally I am quite aware of The God Complex. What does that have to do with this situation? I know the physicians involved you do not.

Fine.

I am not sure where you are from but it is not difficult finding pro-life physicians. Two of the physicians that we consulted with refused to prescribe any abortifacient form of birth control and a third admitted she would do so only in the case of necessary hormone therapy. We did not ask the 4th. The physicians we consulted were all pro-life, and your implication that we do not know the difference is condescending.

You really need to get your feeilings off your shirtsleeves, you know. In my expereince most people do not know. I post on this board in general terms with application to "most people." If you are more knowlegable then most, fine. However, you are awfully defensive about it. "Methings you protest too much."

What you are accusing me of is making a strawman argument and you are correct. But you did not answer the question I was referring to. How do I explain to two children that their mother died and it could have been prevented? In essence you would have me tell them that it was God's will to not prevent their mothers death. Before you respond that this is another strawman argument look at the posts and see that this is the logical end of your reasoning.

It is still an invalid straw-man argument. Each person and situation is different. If you want me to write a book on what EVERYONE should at all times give for advice under such circumstances, you have come to the wrong person. I would not be so bold as to advise people on what they should tell their own children. They know their children best and will, I'm sure, do fine without my "help." Nor will I fall into the bog that you have so carefully created for me.

 

[indra_fanatic]

The "resource" in the book is people -- more and more people. I can tell you of all the good that has come from people born to atheists, drug addicts, etc. but the point is what God says. The child is a blessing. The circumstances may not be.

Junkyard, the point wasn't that God raises up wonderful brethren out of despicable circumstances (which is obviously true), but that there are circumstances when, at least at the moment, pregnancy isn't hardly a blessing. If childbearing always were a blessing, then surely a drug-addicted teenage prostitute who makes absolutely no effort to clean up her life should be commended, or at least not judged, for continuing to have irresponsible sex for money.

God ALLOWS children to be born into these wretched circumstances because Free Will is one of the laws of nature that He has set into motion, and He does not, as a general rule, interrupt those laws. Obviously he does not want any of these little ones to be aborted, but can you give me some Scriptural evidence that He says "yes, I want all humans, regardless of marital circumstances, to go forth and make babies for me"?

 

[Shizzle]

is not the base disagreement here the primary purpose of sex?

if you say that you cant getting married if you dont want children,
then why are you not saying that someone who cant have children cant get married?
to which would be easily disagreed, correct?
for using birth control makes you as someone who cant have children.

however permanent sterilization bring up question of limiting your availibility to be used for gods will and such.

 

[indra_fanatic]

is not the base disagreement here the primary purpose of sex?

if you say that you cant getting married if you dont want children,
then why are you not saying that someone who cant have children cant get married?

Shizzle, you just hit the nail on the head.

Question for Junk Yard Dog and the Roman Catholic/Eastern Orthodox/LDS members who may be browsing: Is it a sin for two knowingly infertile or sterile (by natural means like the mumps, PID, chromosomal defects, etc) to marry knowing that there is absolutely no way for them to bring new life into the world?

 

[JunkYardDog]

Shizzle, you just hit the nail on the head.

Question for Junk Yard Dog and the Roman Catholic/Eastern Orthodox/LDS members who may be browsing: Is it a sin for two knowingly infertile or sterile (by natural means like the mumps, PID, chromosomal defects, etc) to marry knowing that there is absolutely no way for them to bring new life into the world?

You would be sadly mistaken if you think this opinion is even close to limited to the named groups.

When Jesus was asked about a central issue of marriage -- divorce -- He said, in essence, "Let's go back to the beginning and see what God designed." I take my cue from that. There were two purposes made clear "in the beginning" -- unity and procreation. Neither was more important than the other, but neither should be denied or avoided. Infertile couples may not be able to fulfill the latter, but they do fulfill the former. (Before we get off into an agrument on "unity" the sex act IS an essential to the unity though other types of unity are sought.) The point is that sex should be OPEN TO both every time. Even an infertile couple are surprised fairly regularly with a child they never believed they could have had. Even age is not a barrier to God.

In the end, I cannot make a dead-bang case that vasectomy is universally a sin, but I can make a dead-bang case that any abortifacient b/c is a sin. My hope is to challenge this muckracker attitude that only sees the dung of the world and never lifts its eyes in faith to see what God offers. It just seems sad somehow that the Enemy is able to convince so many believers from having one of the greatest belssings available on the face of this earth just because they are worried about making the payment on their BMW (or even their Kia). They lose, the church loses, the world loses, and God loses.

It is like the children of Israel when after a few weeks in the desert had the chance to enter the promised land -- a land so rich in produce that it took two men holding a pole between them to carry A SINGLE BUNCH of grapes. But the worry-warts couldn't trust the same God who had sent 10 plagues to Egypt to deliver them and parted the Red Sea and were afraid to step in because of what MIGHT happen in the future. ("After all, Moses, God gave us a BRAIN, man!) They lost the promised land that day. Even when they returned 40 years later, it was not the same. There were no more two-man bunches of grapes. It is sad, that's all. It is the same kind of unbelief we are warned about in the NT that Israel of old ran on all the time. Yeah, go ahead and use your "brain" -- and lose the promise.

 

[indra_fanatic]

You would be sadly mistaken if you think this opinion is even close to limited to the named groups.

I'm aware of that, and I did not mean any offense. I merely listed them because they are the three biggest denominations with this as stated doctrine. Yes, there are many smaller denominations that teach this as well, as well as individuals, such as yourself, that have come to these beliefs on your own.

 

[indra_fanatic]

(Before we get off into an agrument on "unity" the sex act IS an essential to the unity though other types of unity are sought.) The point is that sex should be OPEN TO both every time.

Again, just like procreation, sexual unity is not a principle limited to believing marriages. Scripture teaches that every sexual union produces spiritual unity, even homosexual sex acts and sex with prostitutes (1 Cor 6: 15-16). Clearly not all union is beneficial, but it's unavoidable when the genitals of two humans come together.

In the end, I cannot make a dead-bang case that vasectomy is universally a sin, but I can make a dead-bang case that any abortifacient b/c is a sin.

I am in complete assent with you on the latter. I really invite you to contribute to my IVF thread located right here. I'd love to hear your contributions on the subject.

My hope is to challenge this muckracker attitude that only sees the dung of the world and never lifts its eyes in faith to see what God offers.

I don't quite understand this... please explain.

It just seems sad somehow that the Enemy is able to convince so many believers from having one of the greatest belssings available on the face of this earth just because they are worried about making the payment on their BMW (or even their Kia). They lose, the church loses, the world loses, and God loses.

JunkYard, I still am not sure how it is that any one person can know what every single believer's family life and pattern should be like. Is it possible that you yourself were called to have a large family and have assumed that it's a "one size fits all" plan?

It is like the children of Israel when after a few weeks in the desert had the chance to enter the promised land -- a land so rich in produce that it took two men holding a pole between them to carry A SINGLE BUNCH of grapes. But the worry-warts couldn't trust the same God who had sent 10 plagues to Egypt to deliver them and parted the Red Sea and were afraid to step in because of what MIGHT happen in the future. ("After all, Moses, God gave us a BRAIN, man!) They lost the promised land that day. Even when they returned 40 years later, it was not the same. There were no more two-man bunches of grapes. It is sad, that's all. It is the same kind of unbelief we are warned about in the NT that Israel of old ran on all the time. Yeah, go ahead and use your "brain" -- and lose the promise.

Not everyone, and certainly not all believers, have been called to live in one place (Israel in this case). Not everyone was called to have the same job, car, hobbies, etc. It might be a tremendous blessing for a 6'8" high school basketball star to get picked in an NBA draft, but how could that be applicable for a 5'3" math whiz who deals with severe asthma?

 

[JunkYardDog]

Again, just like procreation, sexual unity is not a principle limited to believing marriages. Scripture teaches that every sexual union produces spiritual unity, even homosexual sex acts and sex with prostitutes (1 Cor 6: 15-16). Clearly not all union is beneficial, but it's unavoidable when the genitals of two humans come together.

Homosexual "sex" does no such thing.

I don't quite understand this... please explain.

Have you ever read Pilgrim's Progress? You should. Pay attention to the House of the Interpreter.

JunkYard, I still am not sure how it is that any one person can know what every single believer's family life and pattern should be like. Is it possible that you yourself were called to have a large family and have assumed that it's a "one size fits all" plan?

I don't. Some believers are single, some are married but are barren, others are married and have small families, others are married and have large families. It isn't "one size fits all" but "God's size fits you." God, who knows the hairs on your head, knows the size that fits you. Have you no faith?

Not everyone, and certainly not all believers, have been called to live in one place (Israel in this case). Not everyone was called to have the same job, car, hobbies, etc. It might be a tremendous blessing for a 6'8" high school basketball star to get picked in an NBA draft, but how could that be applicable for a 5'3" math whiz who deals with severe asthma?

After describing the incidents of rebellion by Israel in the wilderness, Paul says:

1 Corintians 10:11
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

In a similar description of the unbelief of Israel in the wilderness, the writer of Hebrews records:

Hebrews 4:11
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

If God has promised blessings and we refuse them, we are missing the example of Israel who, because they were afraid of a fight against the giants in the land, refused to trust God and paid the price with 40 years worth of trips around the mountain.

Nor is the "place" the same for all. It is individually tailored by a wise, all-knowing, heavenly Father. Have you no trust in His care?

 

[charityagape]

It's just a method of BC, with its own pros and cons, the only way it could be wrong is if the wife was unaware and planning on having children.

 

[indra_fanatic]

Homosexual "sex" does no such thing.

Did you read the verse citations I gave you? Paul says we must avoid perverse sex acts specifically BECAUSE they create unity with the person you are doing them with.

Have you ever read Pilgrim's Progress? You should. Pay attention to the House of the Interpreter.

No, I don't believe I have. Can you please tell me the gist?

I don't. Some believers are single, some are married but are barren, others are married and have small families, others are married and have large families. It isn't "one size fits all" but "God's size fits you." God, who knows the hairs on your head, knows the size that fits you. Have you no faith?

Up until modern medicine (say, the 19th century or so), the leading cause of death in young women was childbirth. In the Middle Ages, exhausted, spent, ruined women as young as 30 would frequently die hideous deaths from uterine prolapse or rupture while trying to push out their twelfth or fifteenth child. Others died considerably more painful, slower deaths from terminal uterine infections in this pre-antibiotic era. Is this really something we want to go back to?

What is your opinion on medical care in general (not just contraception)?

1 Corintians 10:11
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

In a similar description of the unbelief of Israel in the wilderness, the writer of Hebrews records:

Hebrews 4:11
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Are you insinuating that anyone who practices contraception is an unbeliever?

If God has promised blessings and we refuse them, we are missing the example of Israel who, because they were afraid of a fight against the giants in the land, refused to trust God and paid the price with 40 years worth of trips around the mountain.

JY, the reason we are not coming to any agreement is that we have differing opinions of what "blessing" means. If you have reason to believe that what Scripture calls a blessing was originally "commandment" in the original Hebrew, explain that, but otherwise, I see no reason not to take our translations of the Word at face value.

Nor is the "place" the same for all. It is individually tailored by a wise, all-knowing, heavenly Father. Have you no trust in His care?

Have you no trust in the ability of other married people to discern what His care means for them?

 

[No Swansong]

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[No Swansong]

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