Question about a married man who gets a vasectomy? Is this a sin?

JunkYardDog · Aug 4, 2005

beechy said:
You don't think it's possible to step into a street blindfolded, per ebia's example, and make it safely across? Are you going to get hit by a car every time? Why don't you just trust in God?

Once again you equate the possibility of a baby with a disaster. I do not tempt God by putting myself in danger, but it is not tempting God to open yourself to His blessings.

Chajara · Aug 4, 2005

JunkYardDog said:
Once again you equate the possibility of a baby with a disaster. I do not tempt God by putting myself in danger, but it is not tempting God to open yourself to His blessings.

How is blindly having children not putting yourself, or worse, your children, in danger if you don't have the means to support them or the skills to pass on to them? Kids need proper nutrition, outlets for their energy, an education (and many christian parents choose to send their children to private schools or homeschool, which require money and skills, respectively) and if you only have enough money to feed yourself and your spouse because you have to save up for a house or something then it's obviously not gonna work.

beechy · Aug 4, 2005

JunkYardDog said:
Once again you equate the possibility of a baby with a disaster. I do not tempt God by putting myself in danger, but it is not tempting God to open yourself to His blessings.

First of all, this was not my analogy. Second, of all you are mixing, matching, and blending together two different concepts in this discussion:

Concept A) Your contention that we should always be open to having a child because children are blessings.

Concept B) Your contention that our human attempt to influence a certain outcome represents a lack of faith in God.

The car crash, job keeping, street crossing analogies speak to Concept B. They aim to illustrate how we try to influence our outcomes on a daily basis in a variety of situations without anyone contending that doing so demonstrates a lack of faith. In other words, you seem to be saying that if God's will is for the outcome to be "X", then it will be "X" whether you want it to be "X" or not, so you should have faith that God knows what's best and don't try to act in a way to produce a different outcome, "Y".

The car crash/job/street crossing analogies are an attempt to illustrate how it is ok, and happens every day that we attempt to achieve the outcome we want, outcome "Y" (not being hurt in a car crash, keeping one's job, or not getting hit by a car when crossing the street), by acting in a certain way, even if it is true that God's will is for the outcome to be "X" (being killed in a car crash, losing one's job, or getting hit by a car when you cross the street).

I don't think you really take issue with this reasoning. I think you agree that you shouldn't blindfold yourself, pray to God that you won't get hit, cross the street and call it "faith".

Your real problem with this reasoning/analogy, goes back to Concept A. That is, you think having a kid is always a good thing, no matter when it happens, because it is a blessing. When people say that sometimes having a kid is not a good thing, you take issue with that statement because you think it goes against God's Word that every child is a blessing.

And here's where I see a disconnect. If I was married but my husband just lost his job, we had $25 in our bank account, and I was recently diagnosed with a disease that will require me to take medication known to produce birth defects, I would probably make the determination that it wasn't the best time for me to be having a kid. It's like the $1 million inheritance example I gave you earlier. $1 million cash might be a blessing in the hands of a 45 year old single mother of 8, but less so the hands of a 10 year kid.

So to use birth control during a time like I've just described would not be to deny God's blessing, but to express my desire to accept her later. I wouldn't be saying "God, I don't want my child". I would be saying "God, it would be great if I could get through this stuff first, get my home and body ready, and then have my child." It's not like your yet to be conceived child is suffering or neglected or languishing somewhere waiting for you. God's got her (if she exists). I don't see anywhere in the Bible that says God doesn't want you to be able to prepare your life and home to nurture these blessings he's giving you. And again, if God wants me to get pregnant in spite of what I want, than it's going to happen and I'm not going to hate my kid or deny her because of it because her human life is precious.

So, in sum, with respect to Concept A, I agree that children are always themselves a blessing, but I don't agree that this means having a preference as to the timing of their arrival is somehow a denial of that blessing. With respect to Concept B, as I explained above, I don't think even you truly agree with this idea -- it's just that you think no one should ever, for any reason, want to delay receipt of their "blessing" (again, a corollary of Concept A).

JunkYardDog · Aug 4, 2005

beechy said:
First of all, this was not my analogy. Second, of all you are mixing, matching, and blending together two different concepts in this discussion:

Concept A) Your contention that we should always be open to having a child because children are blessings.

Concept B) Your contention that our human attempt to influence a certain outcome represents a lack of faith in God.

The car crash, job keeping, street crossing analogies speak to Concept B. They aim to illustrate how we try to influence our outcomes on a daily basis in a variety of situations without anyone contending that doing so demonstrates a lack of faith. In other words, you seem to be saying that if God's will is for the outcome to be "X", then it will be "X" whether you want it to be "X" or not, so you should have faith that God knows what's best and don't try to act in a way to produce a different outcome, "Y".

The car crash/job/street crossing analogies are an attempt to illustrate how it is ok, and happens every day that we attempt to achieve the outcome we want, outcome "Y" (not being hurt in a car crash, keeping one's job, or not getting hit by a car when crossing the street), by acting in a certain way, even if it is true that God's will is for the outcome to be "X" (being killed in a car crash, losing one's job, or getting hit by a car when you cross the street).

I don't think you really take issue with this reasoning. I think you agree that you shouldn't blindfold yourself, pray to God that you won't get hit, cross the street and call it "faith".

Your real problem with this reasoning/analogy, goes back to Concept A. That is, you think having a kid is always a good thing, no matter when it happens, because it is a blessing. When people say that sometimes having a kid is not a good thing, you take issue with that statement because you think it goes against God's Word that every child is a blessing.

And here's where I see a disconnect. If I was married but my husband just lost his job, we had $25 in our bank account, and I was recently diagnosed with a disease that will require me to take medication known to produce birth defects, I would probably make the determination that it wasn't the best time for me to be having a kid. It's like the $1 million inheritance example I gave you earlier. $1 million cash might be a blessing in the hands of a 45 year old single mother of 8, but less so the hands of a 10 year kid.

So to use birth control during a time like I've just described would not be to deny God's blessing, but to express my desire to accept her later. I wouldn't be saying "God, I don't want my child". I would be saying "God, it would be great if I could get through this stuff first, get my home and body ready, and then have my child." It's not like your yet to be conceived child is suffering or neglected or languishing somewhere waiting for you. God's got her (if she exists). I don't see anywhere in the Bible that says God doesn't want you to be able to prepare your life and home to nurture these blessings he's giving you. And again, if God wants me to get pregnant in spite of what I want, than it's going to happen and I'm not going to hate my kid or deny her because of it because her human life is precious.

So, in sum, with respect to Concept A, I agree that children are always themselves a blessing, but I don't agree that this means having a preference as to the timing of their arrival is somehow a denial of that blessing. With respect to Concept B, as I explained above, I don't think even you truly agree with this idea -- it's just that you think no one should ever, for any reason, want to delay receipt of their "blessing" (again, a corollary of Concept A).

My, my, my, beechy, you simply cannot refrain from comparing babies to disasters. The concepts here are inexorably mixed because they involve ONE THING -- receiving God's blessings (babies).

You say, "Your contention that our human attempt to influence a certain outcome represents a lack of faith in God." yet you mask the fact that the "certain outcome" you are speaking of is GOD'S BLESSING. Then you say, "I agree that children are always themselves a blessing . . ." ALWAYS? ALWAYS? You obviously don't believe that at all. You think they are a blessing when YOU want them, and a disaster (like being hit by a car on a highway) when you don't want them.

This is not about "spacing" or "delaying" as you will never have the exact same child if you delay -- different egg, different sperm = different child. What this is about is CONTROL. You want to CONTROL God and His blessings. If God dropped other unexpected blessings on you -- money cattle, lands, houses -- you would not be looking for this "spacing" or "delaying" of the blessings, would you!

I think it is the devil's own plan to fool God's people into denying themselves this best of all blessings. I pity the children broght into a world with parents who think only the children they want at the moment are blessings.

beechy · Aug 4, 2005

JunkYardDog said:
My, my, my, beechy, you simply cannot refrain from comparing babies to disasters. The concepts here are inexorably mixed because they involve ONE THING -- receiving God's blessings (babies).

You say, "Your contention that our human attempt to influence a certain outcome represents a lack of faith in God." yet you mask the fact that the "certain outcome" you are speaking of is GOD'S BLESSING. Then you say, "I agree that children are always themselves a blessing . . ." ALWAYS? ALWAYS? You obviously don't believe that at all. You think they are a blessing when YOU want them, and a disaster (like being hit by a car on a highway) when you don't want them.

This is not about "spacing" or "delaying" as you will never have the exact same child if you delay -- different egg, different sperm = different child. What this is about is CONTROL. You want to CONTROL God and His blessings. If God dropped other unexpected blessings on you -- money cattle, lands, houses -- you would not be looking for this "spacing" or "delaying" of the blessings, would you!

I think it is the devil's own plan to fool God's people into denying themselves this best of all blessings. I pity the children broght into a world with parents who think only the children they want at the moment are blessings.

I'll say once again that I view all children as blessings. But I don't have the same sentiments for unconceived, unborn, non-existent, potential pre-children -- the kind I would be affecting through use of birth control. Of course once a child is born you love her and thank God for her, and you acknowledge that her life is the work of God and God's will. But I take issue with the idea that by preventing egg and sperm from meeting you are by-passing a specific child's life:

JunkYardDog said:
This is not about "spacing" or "delaying" as you will never have the exact same child if you delay -- different egg, different sperm = different child.

I submit that when egg and sperm don't meet, there is no child at issue at all, but only an unconceived, unborn, non-existent, potential possibility of a pre-child. In other words, nothing.

As for your money, cattle, land, house "blessings," I'll simply say that yes, I would definitely like to be able to choose when I was going to receive any of those things if I could. I'd be in real trouble if I got blessed with a herd of cattle right now ... but instead of going into the details of when/how/why I'd be more or less interested in each of your proposed "blessings" at any given time, I'll say this. The difference between all of these things and a child, of course, is that I would have a serious responsibility to a child that far outlasts and outweighs what my responsibility to, say, a cow would be. So although I absolutely view children as blessings, I take my responsibility to care for one very seriously, and would appreciate the opportunity to be as prepared as possible to commence that blessed challenge. For the millionth time, if I got pregnant unexpectedly, I would still love the kid. And I would still consider her a blessing. But if I use a condom during sex and don't get pregnant as a result, I'm not going to mourn the non-kids that I didn't have which never existed.

Finally, no one can control God and I wouldn't dream of trying. But that doesn't mean God doesn't want me to exercise some control over my life. And I think preparing myself to receive His blessings is a good exercise of that control.

JunkYardDog · Aug 4, 2005

beechy said:
I'll say once again that I view all children as blessings. But I don't have the same sentiments for unconceived, unborn, non-existent, potential pre-children -- the kind I would be affecting through use of birth control.

IOW, you view children you ALLOW God to give you as blessings, not all the ones He may WANT to give you.

Chajara · Aug 4, 2005

Blah, this is going nowhere fast. What do you want us to say, JunkYardDog? That we'll stop using birth control and have kids right after marrying regardless of ability to provide? I don't believe that God wants us to do that. So I'm not going to. Ever.

What about people who don't think of children as blessings at all? What about those who hate kids? Some people just don't have the patience to deal with children, their talents lie elsewhere. Are they too obligated to make as many babies as they can even though they don't want kids and won't care for them? Or are they just wrong in not liking kids?

beechy · Aug 4, 2005

JunkYardDog said:
IOW, you view children you ALLOW God to give you as blessings, not all the ones He may WANT to give you.

Now we're just getting wacky. Where does it say that God lines up potential kids He wants you to have -- Julie, Jimmy, Jennifer, and Jack -- and by using birth control you deny, strand, and snuff out of existence poor little Jack, or maybe Jennifer AND Jack if you use a condom too many times? What happens to them? Is there a special place in Heaven for the waiting non-children that were never conceived? Are these children out there now existing in a bizarre dimension of non-existence because someone used a condom?

And the Bible says children are blessings, not that God wants to give you a certain number of them, or that every person is somehow thereby compelled to live their lives such that they maximize their chances to receive that particular type of blessing. God characterized lots of things as blessings that you're probably not preparing yourself to receive. In Deuteronomy 28:4, God tells the Israelites that if they obey God he will bless their flocks of sheep with lambs. Clearly He is characterizing lambs as blessings -- do you own a flock of sheep, or are you disallowing God from giving you the blessing of lambs that He may want to bestow on you?

JunkYardDog · Aug 4, 2005

beechy said:
Now we're just getting wacky. Where does it say that God lines up potential kids He wants you to have -- Julie, Jimmy, Jennifer, and Jack -- and by using birth control you deny, strand, and snuff out of existence poor little Jack, or maybe Jennifer AND Jack if you use a condom too many times? What happens to them? Is there a special place in Heaven for the waiting non-children that were never conceived? Are these children out there now existing in a bizarre dimension of non-existence because someone used a condom?

And the Bible says children are blessings, not that God wants to give you a certain number of them, or that every person is somehow thereby compelled to live their lives such that they maximize their chances to receive that particular type of blessing. God characterized lots of things as blessings that you're probably not preparing yourself to receive. In Deuteronomy 28:4, God tells the Israelites that if they obey God he will bless their flocks of sheep with lambs. Clearly He is characterizing lambs as blessings -- do you own a flock of sheep, or are you disallowing God from giving you the blessing of lambs that He may want to bestow on you?

God says He will provide, but doesn't list a salary either. I don't see you out there putting a condom around your wallet and refusing all but one in four paychecks. I don't see people refusing when they get an unexpected windfall or telling their bosses not to give them that raise. We don't resist God's blessings unless they are babies.

If God gave me livestock, I'd grab it up in a second. I grabbed every baby he gave to my wife and me the same way.

beechy · Aug 4, 2005

JunkYardDog said:
If God gave me livestock, I'd grab it up in a second. I grabbed every baby he gave to my wife and me the same way.

How can He give you lambs if you don't go out and buy some sheep? If you really want to be blessed with lambs, shouldn't you go out and get your flock started? Or are you saying that you only want lambs when you're ready to have them? Why are you putting stumbling blocks before God by not starting up your sheep farm? Do you expect lambs to just appear on your doorstep?

Chajara · Aug 4, 2005

Alright, well, everything I've said in this thread has gone ignored, so I'm ducking out while I can still retain my sanity. Peace guys.

JunkYardDog · Aug 4, 2005

beechy said:
How can He give you lambs if you don't go out and buy some sheep? If you really want to be blessed with lambs, shouldn't you go out and get your flock started? Or are you saying that you only want lambs when you're ready to have them? Why are you putting stumbling blocks before God by not starting up your sheep farm? Do you expect lambs to just appear on your doorstep?

I could inherit them or be given them as gifts. I don't however take measures to PREVENT it from happening. Name one stumbling block I have set up to stop myself from getting livestock. I can name ways in which people set up stumbling blocks to prevent being blessed with children -- like all of your recommended methods.

beechy · Aug 4, 2005

JunkYardDog said:
I could inherit them or be given them as gifts. I don't however take measures to PREVENT it from happening. Name one stumbling block I have set up to stop myself from getting livestock. I can name ways in which people set up stumbling blocks to prevent being blessed with children -- like all of your recommended methods.

The simplest way that you could facilitate receiving the blessing of lambs would be to buy sheep. The simplest way that Jane and John Doe could facilitate receiving the blessing of children would be to have heterosexual vaginal sex without birth control.

If you are truly open to receiving God's gift of lambs you will therefore buy some sheep and allow them to have heterosexual vaginal sheep sex without birth control. If the Doe's are truly open to receiving God's gift of children they will therefore have heterosexual vaginal sex without birth control.

You, however, have chosen not to buy a flock of sheep and thereby your nonexistent herd won't be having heterosexual vaginal sheep sex without birth control. The Doe's have chosen not to have heterosexual vaginal sex without birth control.

However, your conscience is clear because you may still, as you cleverly point out, end up with sheep as a gift or through inheritence (you have a sheep herding uncle or something?) and you have made clear that you would take care of those sheep if they came to you that way. Similarly, the Doe's feel fine with their decision because they would gladly take care of any kids they might have if their birth control fails, as we know it is often wont to do, or when their niece's parents die (Jane's brother and sister in-law, that is) and they designate the Doe's as her legal guardian, or when Mrs. Doe, who is a nurse in a local Children's Hospital, decides to adopt the recovering crack baby that was abandoned by its birth mother.

But if the Doe's really wanted to give God every opportunity to bless them with child, they would have heterosexual vaginal sex without birth control. And if you really wanted to give God every opportunity to bless you with lambs, you would go out and buy the flock of sheep through which He could produce them.

ebia · Aug 4, 2005

JunkYardDog said:
Once again, like beechy, your anti-child mentality betrays you. You simply cannot make an argument with comparing having a child with some kind of disaster.

On the contrary, I'm comparing it with not having a disaster.

Now, can you please stop avoiding the question and actually answer it?

JunkYardDog · Aug 4, 2005

ebia said:
On the contrary, I'm comparing it with not having a disaster.

In your illustration, the thing one wants to avoid is being hit by a car and you do that by not being blindfolded and watching traffic and taffic signals to avoid it. You compare having a child without use of b/c to being blindfolded and risking being hit by a car -- er, having a dreaded baby.

Now, can you please stop avoiding the question and actually answer it?

If you are talking about the OP, see post #2.

ebia · Aug 4, 2005

JunkYardDog said:
In your illustration, the thing one wants to avoid is being hit by a car and you do that by not being blindfolded and watching traffic and taffic signals to avoid it. You compare having a child without use of b/c to being blindfolded and risking being hit by a car -- er, having a dreaded baby.

If you want to make that connection, that's up to you, just stop avoiding the question and answer it:
Do you just shut you eyes and trust God to get you across the road? Or do you take responsibility for getting across safely yourself?

JunkYardDog · Aug 4, 2005

beechy said:
The simplest way that you could facilitate receiving the blessing of lambs would be to buy sheep. The simplest way that Jane and John Doe could facilitate receiving the blessing of children would be to have heterosexual vaginal sex without birth control.

No. the simplest way for me to be blessed with sheep is for god to GIVE them to me. As to heterosexual vaginal sex (the ONLY kind of real sex) without birth control, my wif and I NEVER used birth control.

JunkYardDog · Aug 4, 2005

ebia said:
If you want to make that connection, that's up to you, just stop avoiding the question and answer it:
Do you just shut you eyes and trust God to get you across the road? Or do you take responsibility for getting across safely yourself?

I do not tempt God. However, it is not tempting God to be always welcoming any blessing He sends. He does not send a car crash as a blessing. You simply have to stop seeing babies as disasters.

ebia · Aug 4, 2005

JunkYardDog said:
I do not tempt God. However, it is not tempting God to be always welcoming any blessing He sends. He does not send a car crash as a blessing. You simply have to stop seeing babies as disasters.

So you don't trust God. Thankyou.

(BTW, if you knew anything about me in real life you realise how absurd it is to suggest I see babies as disasters.)

JunkYardDog · Aug 5, 2005

ebia said:
So you don't trust God. Thankyou.

(BTW, if you knew anything about me in real life you realise how absurd it is to suggest I see babies as disasters.)

"Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh."

-- Jesus

Question about a married man who gets a vasectomy? Is this a sin?

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