Question 3

[Togowack]

There is only doctrine. Doctrine is the words that come out of a preachers mouth that aren't right out of the book. Church in North America, in 99% of the situations, is a club. It is an organization of man, in fact its a government ordained charitable organization, and its relation to the bible hinges upon the work it does to the poor, while most of their money goes overseas and our country starves spiritually.

Faith is obedience, but it is also action, there is evidence for faith, and that evidence is made clear in the book of James, and he doesn't mention church at all.

The only venue that I see for organized religion, which is what we have turned Christianity into, is a place where the holy spirit will come (because of expectation). However, far too many people are only sunday morning Christians and do very little that the bible commands for the rest of the week.

the word epidemy also works in its native definition.

 

[Philothei]

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[Jerushabelle]

There is only doctrine. Doctrine is the words that come out of a preachers mouth that aren't right out of the book. Church in North America, in 99% of the situations, is a club. It is an organization of man, in fact its a government ordained charitable organization, and its relation to the bible hinges upon the work it does to the poor, while most of their money goes overseas and our country starves spiritually.

Faith is obedience, but it is also action, there is evidence for faith, and that evidence is made clear in the book of James, and he doesn't mention church at all.

The only venue that I see for organized religion, which is what we have turned Christianity into, is a place where the holy spirit will come (because of expectation). However, far too many people are only sunday morning Christians and do very little that the bible commands for the rest of the week.

the word epidemy also works in its native definition.

I was making a play on the words epidemy/epitome. LOL You must forgive my weird sense of humor.

Well, I'm not sure why you're jumping on doctrine when all I've suggested is that you read posted Scripture. Regardless of what you think or feel about churches, Sunday go to meeters, etc. the "church" is Scriptural, the church government is Scriptural and the tithes and offerings for the welfare of the needy and support of clergy is Scriptural. Our behavior in obedience to God is up to each individual and we are judged individually by God for it. While James may not mention church, there is much in Scripture that does. We need to read the whole word, not just the parts that get us all fiery!

 

[Jerushabelle]

So noted Philothei.

 

[Svt4Him]

"I the Lord do not change."

"So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people," (Exodus 32:14, NASB).

Weird what happens when you apply one verse out of context.

 

[Barefooter]

I didn't read all the posts, but I would just like to mention in reply to the original question about what pastors say, it doesn't matter who says what, we need to be like the Bereans and search the scriptures daily to see if its the truth.

 

[Jerushabelle]

"So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people," (Exodus 32:14, NASB).

Weird what happens when you apply one verse out of context.

God will have mercy on those He will have mercy on. They asked, He gave. That's not God changing; that's God being who He is, a merciful God. My verse was most certainly not taken out of context. Actually, God's words there are a constant regardless of where it is located in Scripture. He didn't say, "I the Lord don't change my mind". God said, "I the Lord do not change." What He expects from us He expects from us; obedience, worship, honor.

 

[Jerushabelle]

I didn't read all the posts, but I would just like to mention in reply to the original question about what pastors say, it doesn't matter who says what, we need to be like the Bereans and search the scriptures daily to see if its the truth.

I definitely agree with this Brother Barefooter.

 

[Svt4Him]

God will have mercy on those He will have mercy on. They asked, He gave. That's not God changing; that's God being who He is, a merciful God. My verse was most certainly not taken out of context. Actually, God's words there are a constant regardless of where it is located in Scripture. He didn't say, "I the Lord don't change my mind". God said, "I the Lord do not change." What He expects from us He expects from us; obedience, worship, honor.

Just so I understand, the Lord doesn't change, but does change His mind but that's not changing, cause it's only His mind?

 

[Togowack]

God will have mercy on those He will have mercy on. They asked, He gave. That's not God changing; that's God being who He is, a merciful God. My verse was most certainly not taken out of context. Actually, God's words there are a constant regardless of where it is located in Scripture. He didn't say, "I the Lord don't change my mind". God said, "I the Lord do not change." What He expects from us He expects from us; obedience, worship, honor.

You have been heavy on doctrine, and I've been instructed to ask pointed questions, which is fine with me. Can you give me an example, after our previous discussion, of something you do in your private life outside of the people and church events, that you see as evidence for your faith and an outreaching to the lost?

 

[His_disciple3]

Tithes are freely given to the storehouse out of obedience to the Will of God; not because the pastor tries to manipulate the congregation to give. Besides, one might as well keep their 10%(+) if the pastor has to beg them for it. The Word of God is clear...regarding the tithes and offering. We as Christians have faith that the Lord will supply all of our needs according to His riches in Glory. Keep in mind that paying your tithes is not a man made command; that command comes from the Lord. Some pastors do ask for an amount; but as long as you are being obedient to the Lord by paying your tithes and offerings; the Lord will rebuke the devour on your behalf. "I have never seen the righteous forsaken or his/her seed begging for bread".

there was three basic things that the people of God did before the law; keeping the Sabbath, paying tithes, and circumcision, there were three basic things during the Law; keeping the Sabbath, paying tithes and circumcision. there was only one of these three that people would still have us to be under, us being; the ones that Jesus set free. Some still want to put His people under the bondage of paying the tithe. Jesus said come unto to me all ye that labour and are heavy laden I will give you rest, He didn't destory the law of the Sabbath, but fulfilled it. the fleshly circumcision as determined by the disciples to mean nothing, but the heart circumcision that is what is was all about. and we get sanctification from Jesus, again He didn't destory the law but fulfilled it, So I wonder why it is that most religious folk feel that He couldn't fulfilled the law of tithe/firstfruits as well? Well He did.

1 Corinthians 15:17
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
KJV

So Jesus fulfilled the Law for me in all these three basic principles for the Children of God, sorry that He didn't for you, the Only place that Jesus said to tithe, He was talking to the scribes; who by the way were still under the Law, everywhere else it is a heart issue as well as circumcision, the little lady at the treasurery gave all of HER WANT! when ask if His followers were to pay taxes Jesus said what is God's is God's. So what is God's? T-totally 100% of what I have is His! It is as the opening post says, pastors can't trust God to support their ministry, they feel they have to put people under bondage to pay tithe, the sad thing about this is that widow ladies are being put under this bondage as well, and they are already having to make a decision either buy medicine or buy food, while the Pastors drive around in their cady's or town cars. You have never seen a righteous man begging for food, so why 30 to 45 minute sermons on why we should go back under the LAW and pay tithes. Is this not a plea to the people to step up their giving?

Galatians 5:17-18
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
KJV

so which is it, we listen to the Holy Spirit in our giving or do we go back under the law? but please keep these verses that Paul spake just before telling us to be led of the Spirit!



Galatians 5:2-4
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
KJV

wow look, if I go back under the Law of tithe as you just instructed me to, I fall from grace. Well no thank You, I believe I will stay free In Christ. preachers who still preach that we are to tithe, didn't get it as the scribes didn't get it.

James 1:27
27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
KJV

 

[Togowack]

ok i would consider this to be theological debate

 

[His_disciple3]

people who would have us under the law, would have us fall from grace Gal. 5! Obedience is better than sacrifice, was found in the Old Testament, Jesus said I no longer call ye servants but call ye friends, if Friends have to be told/commanded to do what is best for our friends, then are we friends or back as servants? If you see a friend in need, do we have to be told/commanded on what to do? days ago, when we saw someone broke down on the side of the road we stopped and helped, now no way can we stop, for fear they are going to steal our car or money, or even harm or kill us. but if we see a friend broke down, no one has to tell us to stop and help them. After all That God has done for us to show that He loves us, and we still have to be commanded on how to treat or please Him?? motives or intentions, do we love God (which is keeping the law) for it is pleasing to God, or do we love God, for we know that we will be better off. I think this is the difference between being a servant or being a friend, is there any among us who could say, God regardless of how you bless me, I will Love You, God regardless if I ever get to see heaven I will serve You, God You can bless all my evil friends and never help me in any way, and I will still be there for You. wow talk about preaching to ones self. do we enter a relationship thinking of what we can get out of it? yeah we do, However God enters the relationship with us thinking what He can give to us, how He can better us, how He can love us and also show that love! for you see in the eyes of God it is Better to give than to receive. Help us Father !

 

[Jerushabelle]

Just so I understand, the Lord doesn't change, but does change His mind but that's not changing, cause it's only His mind?

Perhaps that's a question you should ask Him. I'm not in the habit of questioning God's words.

 

[Jerushabelle]

You have been heavy on doctrine, and I've been instructed to ask pointed questions, which is fine with me. Can you give me an example, after our previous discussion, of something you do in your private life outside of the people and church events, that you see as evidence for your faith and an outreaching to the lost?

Why do you ask this of just me? Because you don't agree with me? I'm not heavy on doctrine. I'm heavy on God's word. There's a big difference. I get the impression you want me to believe as you believe. I believe in what the Holy Spirit has taught me through Scripture.

You're asking me to prove or tout my fruit of the Spirit. That's a bit odd, if you ask me. I'm not offended but I would never ask that of you. You have implied by your faith icon that you claim the blood of Jesus for salvation and I readily accept that. You can not do the same for me simply because you do not agree with what the Holy Spirit has taught me?

 

[Jerushabelle]

there was three basic things that the people of God did before the law; keeping the Sabbath, paying tithes, and circumcision, there were three basic things during the Law; keeping the Sabbath, paying tithes and circumcision. there was only one of these three that people would still have us to be under, us being; the ones that Jesus set free. Some still want to put His people under the bondage of paying the tithe. Jesus said come unto to me all ye that labour and are heavy laden I will give you rest, He didn't destory the law of the Sabbath, but fulfilled it. the fleshly circumcision as determined by the disciples to mean nothing, but the heart circumcision that is what is was all about. and we get sanctification from Jesus, again He didn't destory the law but fulfilled it, So I wonder why it is that most religious folk feel that He couldn't fulfilled the law of tithe/firstfruits as well? Well He did.

1 Corinthians 15:17
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
KJV

So Jesus fulfilled the Law for me in all these three basic principles for the Children of God, sorry that He didn't for you, the Only place that Jesus said to tithe, He was talking to the scribes; who by the way were still under the Law, everywhere else it is a heart issue as well as circumcision, the little lady at the treasurery gave all of HER WANT! when ask if His followers were to pay taxes Jesus said what is God's is God's. So what is God's? T-totally 100% of what I have is His! It is as the opening post says, pastors can't trust God to support their ministry, they feel they have to put people under bondage to pay tithe, the sad thing about this is that widow ladies are being put under this bondage as well, and they are already having to make a decision either buy medicine or buy food, while the Pastors drive around in their cady's or town cars. You have never seen a righteous man begging for food, so why 30 to 45 minute sermons on why we should go back under the LAW and pay tithes. Is this not a plea to the people to step up their giving?

Galatians 5:17-18
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
KJV

so which is it, we listen to the Holy Spirit in our giving or do we go back under the law? but please keep these verses that Paul spake just before telling us to be led of the Spirit!



Galatians 5:2-4
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
KJV

wow look, if I go back under the Law of tithe as you just instructed me to, I fall from grace. Well no thank You, I believe I will stay free In Christ. preachers who still preach that we are to tithe, didn't get it as the scribes didn't get it.

James 1:27
27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
KJV

Fulfill does not mean replace. I am free in Christ. Free to be obedient and honoring of His Father and I choose to be. What is it to you if I choose to be obedient to God? "Where then is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law." (that does not mean instead of observing the law). "Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncercumcised through that same faith. Do we then nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law." God through Paul to Romans 3:27-31.

I do not look to the law for my salvation but rather to the blood of Jesus Christ. Obedience to and honoring of God is not the same as looking to the law for salvation or being "under the law" for salvation. If a pastor acts in an unGodly fashion he will face judgment for it. If he teaches against Scripture no one is required to listen and he will answer to God for it. I know a pastor who drives a Cadillac. His father died in possession of a life insurance policy so he bought the Cadillac with the money. It was cheaper than the pickup truck he thought to purchase. Did he give a tenth of the insurance money to the poor or to the church? I don't know. That's between him and God but I'm certainly not going to assume he didn't. My current pastor drives a small Chrysler vehicle. My old pastor drove a Dodge Caravan. The one before that drove a Nissan pick up truck. Whoopdeedo! If it will make you feel better, go find a widow and give her one tenth of your earning or paint her house for her or drive her to the grocery or pick up her medications for her or just give her a hug if that's all you have to give. No, I don't see a pastor preaching on the Scripture regarding the tithe as a plea to step up giving.

 

[Philothei]

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