Question 3

[Mr. Donut]

No it is not. The Levitical priesthood have some strict rules and regulations, so no, it's nowhere near our church. Actually, gatekeepers are more in line with church, as that is the origin of the word, in part.

Acts 3:1-4:4, Peter and John were speaking/teaching where?

Matthew 4:23,
Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the good news of the kingdom and curing every disease and every sickness among the people.



Matthew 9:35,

Then Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and proclaiming the good news of the kingdom, and curing every disease and every sickness.

Matthew 12:9,
He left that place and entered their synagogue;

Matthew 13:54,
He came to his home town and began to teach the people in their synagogue, so that they were astounded and said, ‘Where did this man get this wisdom and these deeds of power.

Mark 1:21,
They went to Capernaum; and when the sabbath came, he entered the synagogue and taught.


Mark 1:39, And he went throughout Galilee, proclaiming the message in their synagogues and casting out demons.



Mark 6:2,
On the sabbath he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were astounded. They said, ‘Where did this man get all this? What is this wisdom that has been given to him? What deeds of power are being done by his hands!


Luke 4:15,
He began to teach in their synagogues and was praised by everyone.


Luke 4:16-19,

When he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up,
he went to the synagogue on the sabbath day, as was his custom.
He stood up to read, and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him.
He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written:
‘The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he has anointed me
to bring good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives
and recovery of sight to the blind,
to let the oppressed go free,
to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.'

Luke 4:44, So he continued proclaiming the message in the synagogues of Judea.



Luke 6:6,
On another sabbath he entered the synagogue and taught, and there was a man there whose right hand was withered.



Luke 13:10,

Now he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath.



Further research will reveal that our modern "church service" follows a pattern set in the Synagogue and Temple worship. If that pattern is acceptable to Yeshua, then it should be acceptable today.

Sure do. I also know what God says about those who, through their traditions, make the word of God useless. I heard a pastor say the tithe goes to God, first, and if you can help others after, that is alms. Therefore if you can just afford a bit, give to the church then if you should have anything left, help your mother, help the widow.

In what way does this church spend your money?
Is this a large and rich congregation? Small and poor?
Does this church you mention have mission programs that reach those in need?
This pastor said the money goes to God first, and he's right.
It is the local church body that decides how, what and why it's spent, not the pastor.
What percent of the money given is used for the building fund?
The pastors salary, other staff salary?
If you do not know the answers to these questions, upon what do you base your criticisms?

As for parts needing each other, I agree, although I have no idea what you're getting at with the unfruitful part. If the belief is that because one tithes to the church they are fruitful...well, enjoy the kool-aid.

If I were to plant a single seed of corn how many ears am I likely to get at harvest?
The answer is...none.
Corn plants need others to produce fruit.
Very much like Christians.
Are there many homeless in your community?
How many can one person help alone?
Just one, one persons time, one persons money?
Now, how many can be helped through the resources of a Godly church?

I love that Kool-Aid jab, I get it however I do like the "Fruit Punch" flavor.
I do wonder if there is any real fruit in it though...

 

[Jerushabelle]

"Churches" as tradition defines them don't get my money. Needy people get my money--- and my kids' outgrown clothing and toys, coats, shoes, etc. I don't belong to any clubs or lodges that require membership dues. If I find a teacher I really learn from, I buy their books or send them donations.

How do you know you're learning anything from said teacher? By that I mean what clues you in to whether you're being taught Godly things? The Holy Spirit, correct? Problem with that is the Holy Spirit would not go against Scripture and the tithe and support for pastors is clearly part of Scripture.

A church is not a club requiring membership dues so your statement regarding clubs or lodges doesn't apply to this discussion.

 

[Mr. Donut]

Not all churches teach tithing as a commandment.

In previous posts you have said that it has been your experience at all the churches you have attended

I've done no such thing.

Did you not say in post 64, "When I say "mandatory" I don't mean that they force anyone (though one Baptist pastor tried to get people to give their checking acct. numbers for automatic withdrawals!). What they do is browbeat people and fill them with guilt by claiming that not tithing means "robbing God". It's mandatory as in failure to do so is a sin against God, because they say the Bible commands Christians to tithe. This is beyond "encouragement". That is what has been done in every church I was ever in, over several denominations."?

"Churches" as tradition defines them don't get my money. Needy people get my money--- and my kids' outgrown clothing and toys, coats, shoes, etc. I don't belong to any clubs or lodges that require membership dues. If I find a teacher I really learn from, I buy their books or send them donations.

So the poor get the second best?
This bears re-posting:
"If I were to plant a single seed of corn how many ears am I likely to get at harvest?
The answer is...none.
Corn plants need others to produce fruit.
Very much like Christians.
Are there many homeless in your community?
How many can one person help alone?
Just one, one persons time, one persons money?
Now, how many can be helped through the resources of a Godly church?"

What I don't do is pay the salaries of professional orators or musicians, vacations, buildings, new carpet, sound systems, ...

When you buy your favorite acceptable teachers newest book, aren't you paying "some professional" of one sort or another?
A professional author?
A professional publisher?
A professional lawyer?

 

[2thePoint]

In previous posts you have said that it has been your experience at all the churches you have attended

Yes. I have not attended all churches that exist.

Did you not say in post 64, "When I say "mandatory" I don't mean that they force anyone (though one Baptist pastor tried to get people to give their checking acct. numbers for automatic withdrawals!). What they do is browbeat people and fill them with guilt by claiming that not tithing means "robbing God". It's mandatory as in failure to do so is a sin against God, because they say the Bible commands Christians to tithe. This is beyond "encouragement". That is what has been done in every church I was ever in, over several denominations."?

Yes. I have not attended all churches that exist.

So the poor get the second best?

They're in good condition, hardly "second best". You'd prefer that I sell the clothes and make the poor pay for them? I find your attitude here snarky and judgmental, as if I am robbing God by not buying brand new, fashion-designer clothing. I'd like to see you sell your home and live on the street to prove that you don't live better than they do.

This bears re-posting:
If I were to plant a single seed of corn how many ears am I likely to get at harvest?
The answer is...none.
Corn plants need others to produce fruit.
Very much like Christians.

What makes you think I don't assemble with other Christians? This is a very common straw man.

Are there many homeless in your community?
How many can one person help alone?
Just one, one persons time, one persons money?

Another straw man: one does not require joining a church-club to pool resources with others.

When you buy your favorite acceptable teachers newest book, aren't you paying "some professional" of one sort or another?
A professional author?
A professional publisher?
A professional lawyer?

You're completely missing the point, and I despair of ever getting it across.

A person who pastors is exercising a spiritual GIFT. What part of GIFT isn't making sense here? What scripture sets up this alleged salaried business position and states the scale God has decreed? Who gets "single honor" compared to this "double honor"? Is the church a business, a club, a lodge, an entertainment venue? I'd expect to pay dues or admission fees to see/hear professionals. But that is not what Jesus came to establish. At all.

 

[Svt4Him]

Acts 3:1-4:4, Peter and John were speaking/teaching where?

Matthew 4:23,
Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the good news of the kingdom and curing every disease and every sickness among the people.



Matthew 9:35,

Then Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and proclaiming the good news of the kingdom, and curing every disease and every sickness.

Matthew 12:9,
He left that place and entered their synagogue;

Matthew 13:54,
He came to his home town and began to teach the people in their synagogue, so that they were astounded and said, ‘Where did this man get this wisdom and these deeds of power.

Mark 1:21,
They went to Capernaum; and when the sabbath came, he entered the synagogue and taught.


Mark 1:39, And he went throughout Galilee, proclaiming the message in their synagogues and casting out demons.



Mark 6:2,
On the sabbath he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were astounded. They said, ‘Where did this man get all this? What is this wisdom that has been given to him? What deeds of power are being done by his hands!


Luke 4:15,
He began to teach in their synagogues and was praised by everyone.


Luke 4:16-19,

When he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up,
he went to the synagogue on the sabbath day, as was his custom.
He stood up to read, and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him.
He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written:
‘The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he has anointed me
to bring good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives
and recovery of sight to the blind,
to let the oppressed go free,
to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.'

Luke 4:44, So he continued proclaiming the message in the synagogues of Judea.



Luke 6:6,
On another sabbath he entered the synagogue and taught, and there was a man there whose right hand was withered.



Luke 13:10,

Now he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath.



Further research will reveal that our modern "church service" follows a pattern set in the Synagogue and Temple worship. If that pattern is acceptable to Yeshua, then it should be acceptable today.

That is actually not what I said. What I said was our pastors do not follow the levitical priesthood. Does your pastor own property?

Who was the only group able to collect the Biblical OT tithe? Every three years it was shared with the levites because they couldn't own anything. To say that is the same as our pastors is wrong, the levitical priesthood had very strict rules. My statement stands. As for the statement that if it's good enough for Yeshua, I guess if we truly believed that we'd walk everywhere we went, would only study the OT and wouldn't own a home eh? (although I do think Jesus had a house)

In what way does this church spend your money?

Is this a large and rich congregation? Small and poor?
Does this church you mention have mission programs that reach those in need?
This pastor said the money goes to God first, and he's right.
It is the local church body that decides how, what and why it's spent, not the pastor.
What percent of the money given is used for the building fund?
The pastors salary, other staff salary?
If you do not know the answers to these questions, upon what do you base your criticisms?

Again I fail to see the point in this. How does it relate to the OT tithe? And where exactly do you get the idea that the local church body makes decisions not the pastor, as that seems more a denominational teaching than anything to do with a tithe. By the way, I do have an answer to those questions, but still fail to see how it's in any way relevant.

If I were to plant a single seed of corn how many ears am I likely to get at harvest?
The answer is...none.
Corn plants need others to produce fruit.
Very much like Christians.
Are there many homeless in your community?
How many can one person help alone?
Just one, one persons time, one persons money?
Now, how many can be helped through the resources of a Godly church?

I love that Kool-Aid jab, I get it however I do like the "Fruit Punch" flavor.
I do wonder if there is any real fruit in it though...

Again a bit of faulty logic. How many can one person help? Tons. Look at what happens after a world tragedy, that is not only a church, that's individuals who make up the community doing what they can. You do what you can and if you helping two people who then go help two people who then go out and help two people, you can change the world.

And I do love the fact that you quantify the church, saying it must be "Godly". I live in a Bible Belt. One of our old friends wife just died and he's three months behind in his rent. Apparently we don't have those "Godly Churches" here because, even though they worked in the church for years, no one will help them. How much can one person help?

But regardless of all this, it still doesn't address the issue that money was not required to go to the church until the RCC made it that the tithe expanded beyond what God asked for in the early 5th to 8th century. Those are facts. The good other people are able to do with your money doesn't change the fact that a. God never required you to give the first 10% of all your money b. the tithe was eaten by you and shared with the levites because they couldn't own property c. you can be generous with your money any way you feel God lead you to be d. you don't have to give to a church e. The earliest churches did not distinguish between “clergy” and “laity” for several centuries. Gifted lay members preached and carried out other functions which were later restricted to full-time ordained clergy. For example, a gifted “administrator” may have been in charge while another gifted person “preached” and another gifted person “taught” the Word. This fact would preclude giving tithes when numerous laity exercised their spiritual gifts f. It is very likely that even slaves held leadership roles as elders and bishops in the early church. The noted scholar, F. F. Bruce, says that “Pius, bishop of the Roman church towards the middle of the second century, if not a slave himself, was at any rate the brother of a slave; and Callistus, bishop of the same church in the early part of the third century, was an ex-slave” Slaves would certainly not accept tithes for their sustenance! (F. F. Bruce, The Spreading Flame (Waynesboro: Pater Noster Press, 1958), 192.)

 

[Jerushabelle]

A person who pastors is exercising a spiritual GIFT. What part of GIFT isn't making sense here? What scripture sets up this alleged salaried business position and states the scale God has decreed? Who gets "single honor" compared to this "double honor"? Is the church a business, a club, a lodge, an entertainment venue? I'd expect to pay dues or admission fees to see/hear professionals. But that is not what Jesus came to establish. At all.

Pastors are exercising more than a Spiritual gift but also a Spiritual calling. Note the capital "S" to denote the Holy Spirit as opposed to the small "s" with the capitalized "GIFT". The role of pastor is not a salaried business position and from the Levites in the Temple on forward through time the role is Scriptural (for men). The support of the church and the workers in it through tithes and offerings is also Scriptural. All Scripture has already been put forth. Just as Jesus supported/supports and obeyed/obeys His Father, He supported/supports His Father's word as found in Scripture. He calls us to do the same.

 

[dies-l]

Regardless of how one feels about "tithing" or giving or any such thing, one thing I can say is this: The best way to really see what your values and priorities is to look at where your money and your time goes. If you find that you are spending most of your free time and money on things other than advancing the Kingdom of God, then it is worth asking yourself why that is.

 

[2thePoint]

Pastors are exercising more than a Spiritual gift but also a Spiritual calling. Note the capital "S" to denote the Holy Spirit as opposed to the small "s" with the capitalized "GIFT". The role of pastor is not a salaried business position and from the Levites in the Temple on forward through time the role is Scriptural (for men). The support of the church and the workers in it through tithes and offerings is also Scriptural. All Scripture has already been put forth. Just as Jesus supported/supports and obeyed/obeys His Father, He supported/supports His Father's word as found in Scripture. He calls us to do the same.

There is absolutely no correlation between OT priests and those with the gift of pastoring. They are allowed to own land, they are not of a certain Israelite tribe, there is no "storehouse" mapped to the OT temple, etc. No connection whatsoever. This has all been pointed out and won't be endlessly repeated.

 

[Jerushabelle]

Oh, I forgot to post this:
"The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, 'Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain," and 'The worker deserves his wages.' Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning."
1Timothy 5:17-20

So here is God's word through Paul to Timothy regarding the role of elder/pastor while looking to the OT Law for guidance. It's also a heads up that elders/pastors are human just like the rest of us and despite their Spiritual calling are subject to sin and God stipulates how the church is to address the rebuke of elders/pastors.

 

[Jerushabelle]

There is absolutely no correlation between OT priests and those with the gift of pastoring. They are allowed to own land, they are not of a certain Israelite tribe, there is no "storehouse" mapped to the OT temple, etc. No connection whatsoever. This has all been pointed out and won't be endlessly repeated.

"I the Lord do not change."

 

[2thePoint]

Last time to repeat this: God does not change, but his rules for people do. It's real simple.

 

[Jerushabelle]

Hebrews 13:7-8 -- "Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever."

Hebrews 13:15-17 -- "Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise -- the fruit of lips that confess his name. And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased. Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you."

1Cor. 9:13-14 -- "Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel."

Proverbs 14:15 -- "A simple man believes anything, but a prudent man gives thought to his steps."

 

[Togowack]

Pastors enjoy luxurious salaries, churches have more money than they know what to do with. My new philosophy is to use money to help the lost on my own, and if I fail to find a lost person to help with that money then I have failed in my Christian walk

why let the church do all the head work and missionary work? do some missionary work on the streets, find someone who will appreciate your ministry to them and your ability to help them make ends meet

think about your needy friends, and if you dont have any make some. Then spend your money on them, rather into the black hole that is the church mission fund. Grow in your christian walk, obey Jesus suggestion to use money to make friends in this world, and make awesome friends by spending on them

when you spend on them, they pay attention to you, you can minister to them...

money is a powerful tool and this method will get you much further in life than adding the brainless 10% church offering into your monthly budget.

 

[Jerushabelle]

Pastors enjoy luxurious salaries, churches have more money than they know what to do with. My new philosophy is to use money to help the lost on my own, and if I fail to find a lost person to help with that money then I have failed in my Christian walk

why let the church do all the head work and missionary work? do some missionary work on the streets, find someone who will appreciate your ministry to them and your ability to help them make ends meet

think about your needy friends, and if you dont have any make some. Then spend your money on them, rather into the black hole that is the church mission fund. Grow in your christian walk, obey Jesus suggestion to use money to make friends in this world, and make awesome friends by spending on them

when you spend on them, they pay attention to you, you can minister to them...

money is a powerful tool and this method will get you much further in life than adding the brainless 10% church offering into your monthly budget.

Brainless? That's a bit harsh especially since there has been quite a lot of Scripture put forth to show that tithes for the welfare of the needy and support of the clergy is God's will. The aim of every Christian should not be to get far in life Brother, but to get far in death through obedience to God's will. Jesus said that only those who do His Father's Will will be in heaven.

LOL, next time I see my pastor, I'll be sure to remind him that he's earning a luxurious salary so he can quit his job through the week and relax in the lap of luxury! I'm sure he'll appreciate it!

 

[Togowack]

it is brainless in that so many Christians will commit 10% of their income to the church without committing anything else, like their time or ability to minister to the lost, its much cleaner and much more convenient to simply tithe to an organization that says its doing the right thing.

I think something is missing there, the majority of America IS lukewarm, and dead. I never mentioned a specific organization, but my goal is to fire up people to get out there and use their brain, and time, and skills, which is more valuable to God than a part of their monthly budget where God is put in a corner on an envelope on Sunday morning.

There is no risk in laying down money in the bucket but there is real risk (for real growth) in using that same money to build relationships with people that you would otherwise want nothing to do with. (or possibly they want nothing to do with you, but you're willing to buy them a drink and talk)

ps. and these beautiful buildings, and comfortable salaries for pastors, is a sign that your 10% is easily taken advantage of.

oh, and the last thing you said, just remember the going rate for a pastor is $40k a year and that IS quite comfortable middle class salary.

 

[Jerushabelle]

it is brainless in that so many Christians will commit 10% of their income to the church without committing anything else, like their time or ability to minister to the lost, its much cleaner and much more convenient to simply tithe to an organization that says its doing the right thing.

I think something is missing there, the majority of America IS lukewarm, and dead. I never mentioned a specific organization, but my goal is to fire up people to get out there and use their brain, and time, and skills, which is more valuable to God than a part of their monthly budget where God is put in a corner on an envelope on Sunday morning.

ps. and these beautiful buildings, and comfortable salaries for pastors, is a sign that your 10% is easily taken advantage of.

I'm not sure where you've pulled your "so many Christians" numbers from but the sad truth is that most Christians do not tithe and certainly not out of convenience. Most of those envelopes of which you speak, end up colored or scribbled on by children during the service (not good parental sterwardship of the tithes and offerings). I will agree with you, however, that many American Christians have gotten very lukewarm. Whether the majority or not, I can't say. Tithing of money, time and talent is Scripturally supported though, as has been exhibited in this thread.

 

[Togowack]

yeah but it doesnt say to do it to any organization, says it should go right to the poor. Therefore, it is scripturally legal to do it yourself. Also, the 10% rule comes from the OT, we use it as a guide but again the NT precedes it and if you aren't 100% positive that your 10% is going to feed the hungry, there is no call to give it to an organization.

The two were meant to go hand in hand. The early church literally saw the poor getting fed and taken care of in the same buildings. We hardly do that now... we leave that to downtown buildings to take care of the bums who are uneducated and dont belong in our very theologically correct churches.

Statistics show that 90% of American Christians don't even have a biblical world view.

 

[Jerushabelle]

yeah but it doesnt say to do it to any organization, says it should go right to the poor. Therefore, it is scripturally legal to do it yourself. Also, the 10% rule comes from the OT, we use it as a guide but again the NT precedes it and if you aren't 100% positive that your 10% is going to feed the hungry, there is no call to give it to an organization.

The two were meant to go hand in hand. The early church literally saw the poor getting fed and taken care of in the same buildings. We hardly do that now... we leave that to downtown buildings to take care of the bums who are uneducated and dont belong in our very theologically correct churches.

Statistics show that 90% of American Christians don't even have a biblical world view.

Perhaps you should hunker down and read from page 1 of this thread on forward to get the Scriptural skinny on tithing but I agree that churches should be much more proactive in feeding the poor. One of our elders takes his grill down to an area where some homeless folks are known to hang out and starts cooking up burgers and hot dogs. Our church has a program that assists people with their utility bills when they fall on tough times so they can focus on their mortgage or rent payments and keep roofs over their heads. It's not the government's job to aid the poor and needy. It's the work of the church.

 

[Togowack]

We get too caught up in theology and think 9 pages of debate in a thread is supposed to educate someone. Exactly what I mean.

Why would you expect a political move, by the pastor (or other deemed authority of man in the church), with a barbecue stand surrounded with poor people to mean something? You aren't getting this. I want to encourage people to get themselves involved, not connected with a church at all. If anyone does make friends with people who are in need, they will quickly see that their message of the gospel has a greater effect based on how much monetary help they give to this person.

And this is the NT. There is no 10%, the woman with the small coin gave more than all the rich people that went before her. The church does not mean a building or a club that you sign up to that has its own constitution. The church is made up of people we probably even consider unsaved.

If you don't act on your own, separate from any church (read: club) entity, you never have anything to talk about as a Christian except to say ''i give 10% like a good christian'' and there is no fire, no real action as a result of your faith. No people except for your fellow church goers, who are all lukewarm and believe that ''living in death'' is the epidemy of the church, which is why our country has become such a failure.

 

[Jerushabelle]

We get too caught up in theology and think 9 pages of debate in a thread is supposed to educate someone. Exactly what I mean.

Why would you expect a political move, by the pastor (or other deemed authority of man in the church), with a barbecue stand surrounded with poor people to mean something? You aren't getting this. I want to encourage people to get themselves involved, not connected with a church at all. If anyone does make friends with people who are in need, they will quickly see that their message of the gospel has a greater effect based on how much monetary help they give to this person.

And this is the NT. There is no 10%, the woman with the small coin gave more than all the rich people that went before her. The church does not mean a building or a club that you sign up to that has its own constitution. The church is made up of people we probably even consider unsaved.

If you don't act on your own, separate from any church (read: club) entity, you never have anything to talk about as a Christian except to say ''i give 10% like a good christian'' and there is no fire, no real action as a result of your faith. No people except for your fellow church goers, who are all lukewarm and believe that ''living in death'' is the epidemy of the church, which is why our country has become such a failure.

Brother, there is a world of difference between theological debate and observance of God's word as found in Scripture. Read the Scripture references. Church is not a club. Faith, isn't always characterized by fiery action but by steadfast obedience, although I do love the fiery presence of the Holy Spirit. You've misquoted me, by the way, and the word is "epitome." That's okay. It's late...or early depending...