Queen of heaven

[bbbbbbb]

You claimed the Catholic Church originally subscribed to Monergism. That was false.

As we all know, at one point St. Augustine believed and taught monergism, which was widely accepted at that time. This aspect of his theology survived within the Augustinian order of the Catholic Church. Had it not existed or survived, it is exceedingly unlikely that Martin Luther would have embraced it. Unlike other Protestant reformers, Luther's theology was not particularly original or unusual.

Please note that I did not state that the Catholic Church embraced St. Augustine's monergism. In fact, there was no Catholic church in his day, nor even Eastern Orthodox churches, for that matter. Those denominations developed much later.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I never said every single word you said was false, I called you out on a specific false statement you made about the Catholic Church, and I put it in quotes, and will repeat it for you: "unless God has specifically forbidden something, then it is acceptable." We have a Catechism posted online that well states our beliefs, and I have posted this before: If you are going to represent Catholic teaching then quote the Catechism. You can post your reasons for disagreement. Imagine if someone used your specific words to represent your religion.

“There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”

― Fulton J. Sheen

So, do you mean to tell me that the Catholic Church subscribes to the Regulative Principle of Worship (i.e. unless God has specifically commanded something in the Bible then everything else is irrelevant)? If so, I apologize sincerely and stand corrected. If so, then please address the various extrabiblical doctrines and practices given earlier by Major1 in light of the Regulative Principle.

 

[Major1]

As we all know, at one point St. Augustine believed and taught monergism, which was widely accepted at that time. This aspect of his theology survived within the Augustinian order of the Catholic Church. Had it not existed or survived, it is exceedingly unlikely that Martin Luther would have embraced it. Unlike other Protestant reformers, Luther's theology was not particularly original or unusual.

Please note that I did not state that the Catholic Church embraced St. Augustine's monergism. In fact, there was no Catholic church in his day, nor even Eastern Orthodox churches, for that matter. Those denominations developed much later.

Good stuff!

 

[bbbbbbb]

Good stuff!

Thank you.

 

[Major1]

Thank you.

Are you an x-Catholic or just well educated or both?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Are you an x-Catholic or just well educated or both?

I grew up as a Protestant in an extremely Catholic city. We had an archbishop, cathedral, numerous churches, motherhouses, convents, schools, a monastery, three seminaries, a grotto nearby. Thus, I had a large exposure to Catholicism. Needless to say, Protestants were not appreciated.

 

[Valletta]

I grew up as a Protestant in an extremely Catholic city. We had an archbishop, cathedral, numerous churches, motherhouses, convents, schools, a monastery, three seminaries, a grotto nearby. Thus, I had a large exposure to Catholicism. Needless to say, Protestants were not appreciated.

How sad. Protestants were well treated in my Catholic school, about the only way I know as to how they were differently treated was that one classmate told me that he was not required to attend religion class. Realize that if you told any Christian that their religion said that "unless God has specifically forbidden something, then it is acceptable" they might be insulted. The best attitude would be to assume you are merely ignorant of Catholicism rather than being malicious, but we all fall short of the forgiveness of Jesus as he was nailed to the cross. How about getting back to the discussion of Mary, Queen of Heaven? Do you call her blessed in your religion or is she just another person? Do you understand the role of Queen in the Davidic kingdom?

 

[prodromos]

Good stuff!

If by "good" you mean "contradictory", then yes, it's good stuff.

 

[bbbbbbb]

How sad. Protestants were well treated in my Catholic school, about the only way I know as to how they were differently treated was that one classmate told me that he was not required to attend religion class. Realize that if you told any Christian that their religion said that "unless God has specifically forbidden something, then it is acceptable" they might be insulted. The best attitude would be to assume you are merely ignorant of Catholicism rather than being malicious, but we all fall short of the forgiveness of Jesus as he was nailed to the cross. How about getting back to the discussion of Mary, Queen of Heaven? Do you call her blessed in your religion or is she just another person? Do you understand the role of Queen in the Davidic kingdom?

I didn't invent the Normative Principle of Worship and would have never heard about it had it not been for my Catholic neighbors and classmates. They were the ones who challenged me to find anything in the Bible which contradicted the dogmas of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, the Assumption of Mary into heaven, or her Immaculate Conception. Nor, might I add, there is nothing in the Bible that says Mary is not the Queen of Heaven or the Co-Redemptrix with Jesus Christ.

 

[Valletta]

I didn't invent the Normative Principle of Worship and would have never heard about it had it not been for my Catholic neighbors and classmates. They were the ones who challenged me to find anything in the Bible which contradicted the dogmas of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, the Assumption of Mary into heaven, or her Immaculate Conception. Nor, might I add, there is nothing in the Bible that says Mary is not the Queen of Heaven or the Co-Redemptrix with Jesus Christ.

I don't recall a Catholic ever mentioning such a principle to me. But "worship" is different than "dogma."
For a Catholic, the ultimate form of worship is the Holy mass where we receive Jesus in the Holy Eucharist.
The Bible is very much a Eucharistic book. Covenant history culminates in this "New Covenant," or "New Testament." In fact, that is why we use the term "New Testament" for the new books of the Bible. As the Catholic Church was choosing those books the books began to be called "books of the New Testament." Before that it was not a term we used for books. Personal prayer is also a very important form of worship, to establish a personal relationship with Jesus. Of course, you can't get more personal than receiving Jesus in the Holy Eucharist.
As to "dogma," it is true that it does not have to be explicitly mentioned in the Bible. But no Catholic dogma can disagree with Holy Scripture.
I hope I explained that clearly for you.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I don't recall a Catholic ever mentioning such a principle to me. But "worship" is different than "dogma."
For a Catholic, the ultimate form of worship is the Holy mass where we receive Jesus in the Holy Eucharist.
The Bible is very much a Eucharistic book. Covenant history culminates in this "New Covenant," or "New Testament." In fact, that is why we use the term "New Testament" for the new books of the Bible. As the Catholic Church was choosing those books the books began to be called "books of the New Testament." Before that it was not a term we used for books. Personal prayer is also a very important form of worship, to establish a personal relationship with Jesus. Of course, you can't get more personal than receiving Jesus in the Holy Eucharist.
As to "dogma," it is true that it does not have to be explicitly mentioned in the Bible. But no Catholic dogma can disagree with Holy Scripture.
I hope I explained that clearly for you.

Thank you. You have expressed the Normative Principle quite succinctly when you wrote, "no Catholic dogma can disagree with Holy Scripture." This means, of course, that scripture does not need to be the source for Catholic dogma, but merely that Catholic dogma cannot contradict the Bible.

This opens quite a strange Pandora's box. Some of my Chinese friends who are syncretists, hold this view. As a result, because the Bible actually commands children to honor their fathers and mothers, ancestor worship is fully acceptable. Likewise, because the Bible does not contradict Confucian teachings, his teachings are perfectly acceptable.

 

[Valletta]

Thank you. You have expressed the Normative Principle quite succinctly when you wrote, "no Catholic dogma can disagree with Holy Scripture." This means, of course, that scripture does not need to be the source for Catholic dogma, but merely that Catholic dogma cannot contradict the Bible.

This opens quite a strange Pandora's box. Some of my Chinese friends who are syncretists, hold this view. As a result, because the Bible actually commands children to honor their fathers and mothers, ancestor worship is fully acceptable. Likewise, because the Bible does not contradict Confucian teachings, his teachings are perfectly acceptable.

There is no "Pandora's box" for Catholics. Catholics believe the Word of God whether passed down through the Apostles in oral or written form. After I explained the difference between worship and dogma I noticed you dropped the words "of Worship" from your "Normative Principle of Worship" and tried to apply it to dogma and liken the Catholic faith to a non-Christian religion since Catholics don't believe in your Bible-only religion. That you must resort to such tactics is telling. Why not take a quotation from the Catholic Catechism and start a new thread about worship, comparing your "Normative Principle of Worship" to what the Catechism says about worship?

 

[Major1]

If by "good" you mean "contradictory", then yes, it's good stuff.

NOPE!

As usual you change (Tried) the normal accepted use of the word.

 

[Major1]

I grew up as a Protestant in an extremely Catholic city. We had an archbishop, cathedral, numerous churches, motherhouses, convents, schools, a monastery, three seminaries, a grotto nearby. Thus, I had a large exposure to Catholicism. Needless to say, Protestants were not appreciated.

Well........you have learned well and I am blessed to see you stand up for the truth!!!

 

[Marumorose]

Is Mary the queen of heaven because Jesus id the king of the jaws and a king needs a queen or revelation 12 is symbolic for israel

God or Jesus Christ does not have a queen. If there was a queen then God would have trouble creating and managing the universe because he would now and then disagree with the queen.

 

[bbbbbbb]

There is no "Pandora's box" for Catholics. Catholics believe the Word of God whether passed down through the Apostles in oral or written form. After I explained the difference between worship and dogma I noticed you dropped the words "of Worship" from your "Normative Principle of Worship" and tried to apply it to dogma and liken the Catholic faith to a non-Christian religion since Catholics don't believe in your Bible-only religion. That you must resort to such tactics is telling. Why not take a quotation from the Catholic Catechism and start a new thread about worship, comparing your "Normative Principle of Worship" to what the Catechism says about worship?

I am not misrepresenting Catholicism. We are in full agreement the Catholicism rejects the Regulative Principle of Worship and also rejects monergism, are we not?

 

[Valletta]

I am not misrepresenting Catholicism. We are in full agreement the Catholicism rejects the Regulative Principle of Worship and also rejects monergism, are we not?

No. Your statement that I quoted about Catholicism was absolutely false and I think would be offensive to most Christian religions if you chose to apply it to them. I don't recall ever hearing about your Regulative Principle of Worship before, and as I have explained to you worship and dogma are two different things. Like I said, you can open a new thread on the topic, perhaps you can tell everyone about the origin of the principle and what it means. You did not answer my question, do you understand the role of Queen in the Davidic kingdom?

 

[Valletta]

God or Jesus Christ does not have a queen. If there was a queen then God would have trouble creating and managing the universe because he would now and then disagree with the queen.

It is interesting to ponder the role of Mary. Just at Church an hour and a half ago our priest spoke about the wedding at Cana. When Mary said they were out of wine and Jesus said His time had not yet come, Mary said "Do as he tells you." Asking God is one type of prayer, I know I ask God for many things that I do not receive, at least at the moment, I don't consider it giving God trouble at all. I pray and trust that someday He shall remove all sin from me forever.

 

[bbbbbbb]

No. Your statement that I quoted about Catholicism was absolutely false and I think would be offensive to most Christian religions if you chose to apply it to them. I don't recall ever hearing about your Regulative Principle of Worship before, and as I have explained to you worship and dogma are two different things. Like I said, you can open a new thread on the topic, perhaps you can tell everyone about the origin of the principle and what it means. You did not answer my question, do you understand the role of Queen in the Davidic kingdom?

To address your question I will reply with precisely what is written in the Bible about David's Queen(s).

Queen #1 - Michal

I Samuel 18:20 Now Michal, Saul’s daughter, loved David. When they told Saul, the thing was agreeable to him. 21 Saul thought, “I will give her to him that she may become a snare to him, and that the hand of the Philistines may be against him.” Therefore Saul said to David, “For a second time you may be my son-in-law today.” 22 Then Saul commanded his servants, “Speak to David secretly, saying, ‘Behold, the king delights in you, and all his servants love you; now therefore, become the king’s son-in-law.’” 23 So Saul’s servants spoke these words to David. But David said, “Is it trivial in your sight to become the king’s son-in-law, since I am a poor man and lightly esteemed?” 24 The servants of Saul reported to him according to these words which David spoke. 25 Saul then said, “Thus you shall say to David, ‘The king does not desire any dowry except a hundred foreskins of the Philistines, to take vengeance on the king’s enemies.’” Now Saul planned to make David fall by the hand of the Philistines. 26 When his servants told David these words, it pleased David to become the king’s son-in-law. Before the days had expired 27 David rose up and went, he and his men, and struck down two hundred men among the Philistines. Then David brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full number to the king, that he might become the king’s son-in-law. So Saul gave him Michal his daughter for a wife.

However, that was not the end of the Michal story.

I Samuel 25:44 Now Saul had given Michal his daughter, David’s wife, to Palti the son of Laish, who was from Gallim.

II Samuel 3:12 Then Abner sent messengers to David in his place, saying, “Whose is the land? Make your covenant with me, and behold, my hand shall be with you to bring all Israel over to you.” 13 He said, “Good! I will make a covenant with you, but I demand one thing of you, namely, you shall not see my face unless you first bring Michal, Saul’s daughter, when you come to see me.” 14 So David sent messengers to Ish-bosheth, Saul’s son, saying, “Give me my wife Michal, to whom I was betrothed for a hundred foreskins of the Philistines.” 15 Ish-bosheth sent and took her from her husband, from Paltiel the son of Laish. 16 But her husband went with her, weeping as he went, and followed her as far as Bahurim. Then Abner said to him, “Go, return.” So he returned.

II Samuel 6:12 Now it was told King David, saying, “The Lord has blessed the house of Obed-edom and all that belongs to him, on account of the ark of God.” David went and brought up the ark of God from the house of Obed-edom into the city of David with gladness. 13 And so it was, that when the bearers of the ark of the Lord had gone six paces, he sacrificed an ox and a fatling. 14 And David was dancing before the Lord with all his might, and David was wearing a linen ephod. 15 So David and all the house of Israel were bringing up the ark of the Lord with shouting and the sound of the trumpet.

16 Then it happened as the ark of the Lord came into the city of David that Michal the daughter of Saul looked out of the window and saw King David leaping and dancing before the Lord; and she despised him in her heart.

17 So they brought in the ark of the Lord and set it in its place inside the tent which David had pitched for it; and David offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the Lord. 18 When David had finished offering the burnt offering and the peace offering, he blessed the people in the name of the Lord of hosts. 19 Further, he distributed to all the people, to all the multitude of Israel, both to men and women, a cake of bread and one of dates and one of raisins to each one. Then all the people departed each to his house.

20 But when David returned to bless his household, Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David and said, “How the king of Israel distinguished himself today! He uncovered himself today in the eyes of his servants’ maids as one of the foolish ones shamelessly uncovers himself!” 21 So David said to Michal, “It was before the Lord, who chose me above your father and above all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the Lord, over Israel; therefore I will celebrate before the Lord. 22 I will be more lightly esteemed than this and will be humble in my own eyes, but with the maids of whom you have spoken, with them I will be distinguished.” 23 Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to the day of her death.

Queen #2 - Abigail

I Samuel 25:1 Then Samuel died; and all Israel gathered together and mourned for him, and buried him at his house in Ramah. And David arose and went down to the wilderness of Paran.

2 Now there was a man in Maon whose business was in Carmel; and the man was very rich, and he had three thousand sheep and a thousand goats. And it came about while he was shearing his sheep in Carmel 3 (now the man’s name was Nabal, and his wife’s name was Abigail. And the woman was intelligent and beautiful in appearance, but the man was harsh and evil in his dealings, and he was a Calebite), 4 that David heard in the wilderness that Nabal was shearing his sheep. 5 So David sent ten young men; and David said to the young men, “Go up to Carmel, visit Nabal and greet him in my name; 6 and thus you shall say, 'Have a long life, peace be to you, and peace be to your house, and peace be to all that you have. 7 Now I have heard that you have shearers; now your shepherds have been with us and we have not insulted them, nor have they missed anything all the days they were in Carmel. 8 Ask your young men and they will tell you. Therefore let my young men find favor in your eyes, for we have come on a festive day. Please give whatever you find at hand to your servants and to your son David.’”

9 When David’s young men came, they spoke to Nabal according to all these words in David’s name; then they waited. 10 But Nabal answered David’s servants and said, “Who is David? And who is the son of Jesse? There are many servants today who are each breaking away from his master. 11 Shall I then take my bread and my water and my meat that I have slaughtered for my shearers, and give it to men whose origin I do not know?” 12 So David’s young men retraced their way and went back; and they came and told him according to all these words. 13 David said to his men, “Each of you gird on his sword.” So each man girded on his sword. And David also girded on his sword, and about four hundred men went up behind David while two hundred stayed with the baggage.

14 But one of the young men told Abigail, Nabal’s wife, saying, “Behold, David sent messengers from the wilderness to greet our master, and he scorned them. 15 Yet the men were very good to us, and we were not insulted, nor did we miss anything as long as we went about with them, while we were in the fields. 16 They were a wall to us both by night and by day, all the time we were with them tending the sheep. 17 Now therefore, know and consider what you should do, for evil is plotted against our master and against all his household; and he is such a worthless man that no one can speak to him.”

18 Then Abigail hurried and took two hundred loaves of bread and two jugs of wine and five sheep already prepared and five measures of roasted grain and a hundred clusters of raisins and two hundred cakes of figs, and loaded them on donkeys. 19 She said to her young men, “Go on before me; behold, I am coming after you.” But she did not tell her husband Nabal. 20 It came about as she was riding on her donkey and coming down by the hidden part of the mountain, that behold, David and his men were coming down toward her; so she met them. 21 Now David had said, “Surely in vain I have guarded all that this man has in the wilderness, so that nothing was missed of all that belonged to him; and he has returned me evil for good. 22 May God do so to the enemies of David, and more also, if by morning I leave as much as one male of any who belong to him.”

23 When Abigail saw David, she hurried and dismounted from her donkey, and fell on her face before David and bowed herself to the ground. 24 She fell at his feet and said, “On me alone, my lord, be the blame. And please let your maidservant speak to you, and listen to the words of your maidservant. 25 Please do not let my lord pay attention to this worthless man, Nabal, for as his name is, so is he. Nabal is his name and folly is with him; but I your maidservant did not see the young men of my lord whom you sent.

26 “Now therefore, my lord, as the Lord lives, and as your soul lives, since the Lord has restrained you from shedding blood, and from avenging yourself by your own hand, now then let your enemies and those who seek evil against my lord, be as Nabal. 27 Now let this gift which your maidservant has brought to my lord be given to the young men who accompany my lord. 28 Please forgive the transgression of your maidservant; for the Lord will certainly make for my lord an enduring house, because my lord is fighting the battles of the Lord, and evil will not be found in you all your days. 29 Should anyone rise up to pursue you and to seek your life, then the life of my lord shall be bound in the bundle of the living with the Lord your God; but the lives of your enemies He will sling out as from the hollow of a sling. 30 And when the Lord does for my lord according to all the good that He has spoken concerning you, and appoints you ruler over Israel, 31 this will not cause grief or a troubled heart to my lord, both by having shed blood without cause and by my lord having avenged himself. When the Lord deals well with my lord, then remember your maidservant.”

32 Then David said to Abigail, “Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, who sent you this day to meet me, 33 and blessed be your discernment, and blessed be you, who have kept me this day from bloodshed and from avenging myself by my own hand. 34 Nevertheless, as the Lord God of Israel lives, who has restrained me from harming you, unless you had come quickly to meet me, surely there would not have been left to Nabal until the morning light as much as one male.” 35 So David received from her hand what she had brought him and said to her, “Go up to your house in peace. See, I have listened to you and granted your request.”

36 Then Abigail came to Nabal, and behold, he was holding a feast in his house, like the feast of a king. And Nabal’s heart was merry within him, for he was very drunk; so she did not tell him anything at all until the morning light. 37 But in the morning, when the wine had gone out of Nabal, his wife told him these things, and his heart died within him so that he became as a stone. 38 About ten days later, the Lord struck Nabal and he died.

39 When David heard that Nabal was dead, he said, “Blessed be the Lord, who has pleaded the cause of my reproach from the hand of Nabal and has kept back His servant from evil. The Lord has also returned the evildoing of Nabal on his own head.” Then David sent a proposal to Abigail, to take her as his wife. 40 When the servants of David came to Abigail at Carmel, they spoke to her, saying, “David has sent us to you to take you as his wife.” 41 She arose and bowed with her face to the ground and said, “Behold, your maidservant is a maid to wash the feet of my lord’s servants.” 42 Then Abigail quickly arose, and rode on a donkey, with her five maidens who attended her; and she followed the messengers of David and became his wife.

And some more queens -

I Chronicles 3:1 Now these were the sons of David who were born to him in Hebron: the firstborn was Amnon, by Ahinoam the Jezreelitess; the second was Daniel, by Abigail the Carmelitess; 2 the third was Absalom the son of Maacah, the daughter of Talmai king of Geshur; the fourth was Adonijah the son of Haggith; 3 the fifth was Shephatiah, by Abital; the sixth was Ithream, by his wife Eglah. 4 Six were born to him in Hebron, and there he reigned seven years and six months. And in Jerusalem he reigned thirty-three years. 5 These were born to him in Jerusalem: Shimea, Shobab, Nathan and Solomon, four, by Bath-shua the daughter of Ammiel; 6 and Ibhar, Elishama, Eliphelet, 7 Nogah, Nepheg and Japhia, 8 Elishama, Eliada and Eliphelet, nine. 9 All these were the sons of David, besides the sons of the concubines; and Tamar was their sister.

Then there were ten more -

II Samuel 20:3 Then David came to his house at Jerusalem, and the king took the ten women, the concubines whom he had left to keep the house, and placed them under guard and provided them with sustenance, but did not go in to them. So they were shut up until the day of their death, living as widows.

And, finally, there was Bathsheba, the wife of Uriah, who David had killed in order to cover his adultery with Bathsheba. Poor Bathsheba didn't even make it into the official list of queens cited in I Chronicles 3 above.

 

[Valletta]

And, finally, there was Bathsheba, the wife of Uriah, who David had killed in order to cover his adultery with Bathsheba. Poor Bathsheba didn't even make it into the official list of queens cited in I Chronicles 3 above.

The Davidic line of of queens started with Solomon's mother. The importance of this office of queen is expressed in 1 Kings 2:19 “So Bathsheba went Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adonijah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat brought for the king’s mother; and she sat on his right.” Note the difference with King Solomon's wives, they bowed down before him. This shows just how important was the office of the queen.