Put Away the Flags

Defensor Fidei said:

Oh, don't worry, I am quite fearful. Not for myself, but for the innocent victims who will have to keep suffering to satiate the egos of my own countrymen.

Your doublespeak has grown old and stale, Peach.

To quote further from the good senator's speech (in turn quoting someone even greater):

I believe that the greatest contribution America can now make to our fellow mortals is to heal our own great but very deeply troubled land. We must respond -- we must respond to that ancient command: “Physician, heal thyself.”

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And is the answer to "healing thyself" to open old wounds, Defensor?

Instead of encouraging, helping, loving, you are posting a progressive liberal propaganda link that enforces fear, hatred of America, and brings up things that happened centuries ago.

Practice what you preach.

The whole idea of loving or hating a country seems rather vague to me. Everyone means something different when they invoke it. Some mean the system of governance or "founding documents" of the political entity called "the United States". Some mean all the people who live within the lines we have drawn on maps and labeled "United States." Some might be talking about the geography of the land itself. etc.. Many people like to keep it vague so it can employed as an effective attack that is hard to deflect because it can't be pinned down in the first place lol.

Depending on ones definition I could be said to both love and not love my country. Ultimately it's not that important of a question to me. My love is for my fellow man and I see no reason to reduce or increase it based on the happenstance of the location a person was born at.

Defensor Fidei said:

Yes, really. Forget all the brouhaha over the Dixie Chicks when they were blacklisted and denounced vigorously as unpatriotic in the media for voicing mild criticism of George W. Bush and his wars?

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The Dixie Chicks were free to voice their opinion and those who took offense at their comments were free to boycott their music and radio stations were free to play other artists. So what is your issue with this?

There is no need for revisionism.

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No revisionism was offered.

Everyone here lived through the time when questioning the wisdom of Bush and his wars was tantamount to treason.

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This claim of yours has no basis in reality. Bush was soundly criticized for many of his decisions and NO ONE was charged with treason.

And with the dangerous mentalities displayed in this thread, it can happen again. That is what scares me, and what should scare everyone regardless of nationality or religion.

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What is dangerous is the dismissal of the truth and in place of the truth a reliance on emotionalism. You have mistated the truth repeatedly and many of us are not buying your rhetoric. What scares me are those who do buy the leftist irrationality.

Those are not exclusively Christian principles, nor did those documents seriously embrace them except for rich white male landowners.

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As Christian precepts justice, liberty and freedom of conscience are not subject to the relativity that men add to such concepts. You leftists think it is unjust that there in not equality in results between the productive man and the slothful or incompetent man, you treat 'rights' as subject to the whims of a democratic majority (except when that majority turns against your agenda) and freedom of conscience for the Christian in leftist thought should be only in the home or church and has no place in public discourse while leftist thought is to be given unquestioned authority in public discourse.

No. I have one out back and one out front.

Don't think so... In fact, I stand by my argument on the issue- That such a stance is as dangerous to individual freedom as any tyrant has ever been.

You can have my flag... If you can kill me for it first. That's not me idolizing anything- That's me realizing that God has blessed me by putting me in a nation that is also blessed. I would be remiss in not appreciating and caring for such a gift.

5% of the mankind has ever known freedom as we do!

Owning a flag, setting off fireworks on the fourth (was fun, btw), and being patriotic isn't indicative of being a rabid, crazy person. Of course- after reading this thread- I think I'll go buy a flag since I don't currently have one. There's a flag pole slot next to my door- I might as well use it.

Defensor Fidei said:

Asserting individuality over nationalism is "dangerous to individual freedom"?

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From your quoted article:


This man you so idolize advocates the abolition of patriotism by calling it "Nationalism." He advocates the embrace of an attitude that can ultimately lead to a one world government as opposed to sovereign states. He suggests that our nation is not at all different from any other on this globe.

I disagree wholeheartedly.

Patriotism rallies behind a symbol during times of turmoil while demanding accountability. Patriotism states emphatically that "I will work with you, but I will remain separate from you." It does not so quickly and cowardly run towards the nearest, strongest neighbor and seek annexation. It recognizes that our nation IS, in fact, different- different in its approach to government, to liberty, and to religion, among other things.

Defensor Fidei said:

Nobody wants to kill you; the constant references to violence in this thread are really uncalled for.

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What your dear Mr. Zinn conveniently forgot to mention was that nationalism first and foremost requires a central, powerful figurehead. That figurehead then institutes the symbols of power, to which all subjects show complete and utter devotion to, without question. That is Nationalism simplified. That is NOT what is taking place, on the whole, here in the U.S.

We rally behind a flag, instituted before there was a central figurehead. We rally behind a supreme law, which negates Nationalism. While we rally, we question, criticize, debate, place and remove leaders- and even that one figurehead. THAT is patriotism.

The difference is that the mindset and standard for which you are stomping and Zinn writing is the same as was shown prior to the annexation of Austria by Germany; the same attitude which propelled Germany into a frenzied hunger for conquest; and the same attitude which ultimately made it necessary for the United States and others to place a heavy check on their expansionist direction.

The only people who would be interested in killing me, and those like me, would be those with the same mindset, and are willing to move to the next level of their conviction.

The reference to violence is far from uncalled for only if you do not have an understanding of the ultimate danger such a mindset advocated truly is.

Edwin said:

But this is Politics Ringo - where would you have me go? To a parade?

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A place where you're not trying to turn the Fourth of July into a partisan holiday.

Steve said:

It is funny to hear people say that they love their country and then continuously bad mouth it.

Could you do the same thing with a spouse and still call it love?

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Love of country is not dissimilar to love of parents. When you're young, you think your parents can do no wrong. Then you get a bit older and think that your parents can do no right - everything they do is stupid.

But when you finally grow into an adult, you are able to take the good with the bad and recognize your parents' faults - and point them out - while continuing to love them for what they do right. Patriotism is like that.
Ringo

Ringo84 said:

A place where you're not trying to turn the Fourth of July into a partisan holiday.

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Excuse me? Can I call shenanigans on that statement?

One can only hope that on a day important to the OP, someone craps all over it.

Defensor Fidei said:

He is not advocating some sort of nightmarish "one world government" conspiracy. You are attacking a strawman.

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Interesting take, considering I specifically worded that to show that it had potential to go as far as singular global government.

There is no strawman. There is only the truth of the statement.

Defensor Fidei said:

Every country is unique in some ways, but our nation IS NOT better than every other nation in the world. There are plenty of nations with similar forms of government, similar attitudes toward liberty, and similar religious traditions.

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Similar perhaps, but not clones. Thus the reason I would prefer to live here, regardless of our failings as a nation.

Defensor Fidei said:

There are many countries out there today with higher qualities of life for their people, and they do it all without the war crimes too.

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Boy, are you idealistic. Show me one single country without war crimes in their history. I'll wait.

Defensor Fidei said:

This is all meaningless rhetoric. We may change the figurehead, but the worshipful attitude toward him and toward the U.S. federal government does not change.

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I'm pretty sure I've yet to see the entire nation fawn over ANY president, let alone the federal government as a whole. Now, that's just personal observation over the course of more than a few elections, but I gotta wonder... Where are you getting your information?

Defensor Fidei said:

Those who defend the nationalist mindset condemned by Zinn are the ones putting this country on the road to a repeat of Nazi Germany.

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Prove it. Zinn is not condemning Nationalism. By his own descriptions, he condemns patriotism, which something wholly different.

Going back to the thoughts on why the Dixie Chicks were ousted for their comments, I think they were ousted by the country media for those comments (in another country), but very much welcomed into the mainstream for a short time.

Moreso, I hadn't thought of what happened to them as a result of blind nationalism but as a result of conservative Christian people being mad at ANYTHING that was a threat to their values. That was to me those dark times Defensor. Not nationalism, but a combination of ideology and bigotry by a good portion of the population at the time. Some have changed. Some have criticized (several Libertarians and a few Republicans on the board for example back in Bush's time had criticized Bush for his actions) but those dark days were hardly a result of nationalism to me.

So I feel it is ok to be proud of your country even if you don't agree with it. I still don't understand why we need a holiday. I'm proud of my country every day. And I enjoyed the fireworks show.

Just my two cents on an analysis there.

Harpuia said:

Going back to the thoughts on why the Dixie Chicks were ousted for their comments, I think they were ousted by the country media for those comments (in another country), but very much welcomed into the mainstream for a short time.

Moreso, I hadn't thought of what happened to them as a result of blind nationalism but as a result of conservative Christian people being mad at ANYTHING that was a threat to their values. That was to me those dark times Defensor. Not nationalism, but a combination of ideology and bigotry by a good portion of the population at the time. Some have changed. Some have criticized (several Libertarians and a few Republicans on the board for example back in Bush's time had criticized Bush for his actions) but those dark days were hardly a result of nationalism to me.

So I feel it is ok to be proud of your country even if you don't agree with it. I still don't understand why we need a holiday. I'm proud of my country every day. And I enjoyed the fireworks show.

Just my two cents on an analysis there.

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Like that there, Harpuia.


Just wanted to make a side comment real quick:
I had no problem with the Dixie Chicks speaking out against the president; I just had an issue with the timing and location. Shoot, they'd have received a boost in their popularity in this country!

Regardless, even though I disagreed with them, I still liked their music and opposed, with great disdain I might add, the burnings and trash talk. It's the same with Pink- Love her music, and greatly admire the woman she is. I disagree with nearly every political view, but that's all right. That's why this nation rocks.

Defensor Fidei said:

A 'one world government' is the exact opposite of what Zinn is advocating.

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Not according to the final destination of the attitude he espouses. While not many ever go that far, an NWO is, in fact, the end result.

Defensor Fidei said:

If you are looking for someone to blame for trying to create world government, look no further than the multinational corporations and international banks, all supported by the U.S. It is the U.S. that has destroyed the sovereignty of Iraq, Afghanistan, and countless other nations over the decades. It is the U.S. that has military bases in 130 countries around the world. There is your world government, trampling on sovereign peoples everywhere.

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I just had a sudden urge to dismiss you completely after reading this, but I'm pressing forward in the hopes that I misunderstood you.

While I agree that certain corporations and banks around the globe have had a hand in the degradation of society as a whole, such events and entities do not fall upon the shoulders of the US alone. In fact, stating that all of these entities are supported by the US is amazingly bigoted and short-sighted.

I do have a suggestion for you, however. Get the exact number of just how many of these countries specifically requested our presence, or in which we are present at the request/demand of the UN.

We're beginning to stray off course, so I'll move on.

Defensor Fidei said:

Red, yellow, and blue are colors. Some might prefer red, some yellow, some blue. But for someone to claim that his personal preference is somehow better than the others is idiotic.

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I prefer these colors to any other- I prefer to salute and hold high these colors more than any other combination, but the flag of the United States is what we're talking about. It could be purple, cerulean and convict orange- If it's the flag of the United States, I support it. Why? Because that's the country I live in, and for better or worse, it is the ONE country I love.

Defensor Fidei said:

Saying that the United States is the best country in the world and uniquely blessed by God is asininity, not true patriotism.

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I don't believe I've ever heard a rational person claim that we are singularly blessed by God, but uniquely I agree with. Every single individual is uniquely blessed by God, because we are all unique- How much more a country?!

Furthermore, the US is the best country to live in- In my opinion. Someone from Denmark will have a different opinion, as will someone from Singapore. Every country claims that, and every country's citizens, in general, feel that way to some degree or another.

Now, to say that these beliefs are unique to the US... THAT is asininity.

Defensor Fidei said:

In any event, people do not get to choose where they are born.

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Precisely. Which is one reason I thank God daily I was born here, and not somewhere else.

Let me ask you something- How many people immigrate to the US on a daily basis? How many leave to claim citizenship elsewhere on a daily basis?

Defensor Fidei said:

We are talking about today, RETS. What nations consistently rank among the happiest and healthiest? Denmark, Canada, Australia, Finland, Sweden, Switzerland, Austria, Norway...do these have countries have military empires? Are they engulfed in wars of aggression around the world in order to maintain their way of life? Are they enthralled by the corporate neoliberalism that dominates American policy-making?

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With the possible exception of Canada, every one of those countries was forged via military tactics, underhanded dealings, and sycophantic methodology. In fact, even Canada joined with us in Afghanistan, as did Australia. Speaking of Australia, they just recently admitted to attempted genocide.
I also find it interesting that you list Switzerland, Norway, Denmark, Finland, Austria and Sweden. Every one of these countries except Sweden have mandatory military service; Sweden made theirs subject to a Conscientious Objector clause just over a year ago.

Even more interesting- Each of the countries you list are members of the United Nations, and all but Switzerland have their forces pledged to the UN for "peacekeeping missions."

So, to answer your last three questions simply: Yes.

Defensor Fidei said:

The people fawn over Obama just as they fawned over Bush in his heyday. My information is derived from living in this country.

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Not true- SOME people fawn over Obama just as SOME people fawned over Bush. With the possible exception of George Washington, there has never been a single person for whom the entire country was starry-eyed.

Defensor Fidei said:

Zinn mentions the word "patriotism" not once. He is condemning nationalism, and I see no reason to call him a liar.

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Understand something very clearly, because it may affect your desire to continue dealing with me:

I will call any man, woman or child a liar if their terms do not match up with their definitions- And it is done intentionally. Zinn describes patriotism, and labels it Nationalism. Zinn, by his intentional misdirection, was a liar.

Wolseley said:

I say again: if you don't like it, leave. If America is such an unjust horrible place, there are 194 other countries plus Antarctica in the world for you to choose from. Don't let the door hitcha on your way out. Seeya.

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Maybe we're here because we love America and want to make it a better place.

Frater Chad said:

I don't mean to step on any toes here, but I think there's a significant difference between blind nationalism and a thankfulness to be living in a country that grants many rights and freedoms that other countries do not give their citizens. I am happy to live in America and proud of the rights that I have as well as acknowledging the fact that America isn't the greatest nation of all time, God's chosen nation, or other such nonsense. You can be thankful and proud of where you live without it turning into idolatry.

*Shrug* Those are my two copper pieces, at least.

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I love America. I love the history of America, and yes, I can even get teary-eyed around national holidays given the right situation. It doesn't mean I have to agree with everything it does, and that doesn't make me any less of an American.