Put Away the Flags

[David Brider]

...your condescension toward Christians in America...

I don't know if you noticed Defensor Fidei's faith icon, but he's a Catholic. In other words, he is a Christian in America.

David.

 

[David Brider]

Does that mean its too late to say good riddance to him?

I don't think that's a particularly pleasant attitude to take towards anyone.

David.

 

[David Brider]

We need to assert our allegiance to the human race, and not to any one nation."

Makes good sense to me.

David.

 

[David Brider]

Unlike nationalism found in other countries American nationalism is based on principles and not allegiance to whoever happens to hold political power at the moment. To this Christian it is based on the Christian principles identified in the Declaration of Independence and reaffirmed in the Constitution...

Shouldn't Christian values be based primarily on the Bible? And that being the case...well, I've read the Bible cover to cover on many occasions and found nothing within its pages that justifies nationalism, or patriotism, or any other worldview along those lines. As Christians, our loyalty should be first and foremost to Jesus Christ. I realise that we're in a section of the forums to which non-Christians are allowed to contribute, so that obviously doesn't apply to them.

David.

 

[BondiHarry]

Shouldn't Christian values be based primarily on the Bible?

'Primarily'? No. Solely, yes.

And that being the case...well, I've read the Bible cover to cover on many occasions and found nothing within its pages that justifies nationalism, or patriotism, or any other worldview along those lines.

Have you found anything within the pages of the Bible to justify unwavering adherence to the gospel of Jesus Christ? I've written about adherence to Christian principles (and not adherence to men) in response to the anti-American tone in this thread. All nations have demonstrated the failings of carnal men (the United States is no exception) but I see purpose in the United States being singled out and that is to bring into doubt the Christian principles this nation was founded on and equate American patriotism with the blind devotion to country and not principle that is seen in so many other nations.

As Christians, our loyalty should be first and foremost to Jesus Christ.

'Foremost' to Jesus Christ? We cannot serve two masters and 'partial' support of Jesus Christ is in the end damning support ... for example the rich, young lord who kept the commandments except in the end his wealth was more important to him than following Jesus Christ to salvation.

I realise that we're in a section of the forums to which non-Christians are allowed to contribute, so that obviously doesn't apply to them.

David.

I repeat ... to this Christian it is based on the Christian principles identified in the Declaration of Independence and reaffirmed in the Constitution.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I repeat ... to this Christian it is based on the Christian principles identified in the Declaration of Independence and reaffirmed in the Constitution.

The so-called 'Christian principles' in the Declaration of Independence aren't owned by Christians, so out of respect for all non-Christians please stop pretending that those principles belong to you or were invented exclusively by you.

 

[TerranceL]

HECK NO!

Read the Declaration of Independence. Our Founding Fathers declared and sought the authority and sanction of God that we be freed from the tyranny of those who would enslave us.

It is as true today as it was then.

America is a blessed nation, blessed by God, allowed to be in existence by God. The gospel of Jesus goes into all the world from this nation. God uses this nation for His will and purpose.

We, the people, must worship and obey His will, rules and laws to continue in our Divine blessings. The fact that we have immoral, dishonest, and dishonorable leaders is a testament to our own lack of resolve in holding on to the founding principles, firm in Christianity and the Judeo-Christian beliefs.

We are to love God with all our heart and mind and love our neighbor as ourselves, having justice and freedom as our standard.
That is the command of Jesus and the foundation and very heart of America.

So that whole slavery deal, the genocide of the native populations, testing diseases on our own population, that was all with gods good will?

 

[Vasallus]

Or, one can have hopes that don't involve fecal matter. But whatever.

Well that's what you've decided to do to the 4th of July. Please let us know when you have a birthday, wedding or funeral so we can return the favor.

 

[RETS]

Makes good sense to me.

David.

Hmmm. Emergent church?

Well that's what you've decided to do to the 4th of July. Please let us know when you have a birthday, wedding or funeral so we can return the favor.

Heh... I have to admit having a chuckle over this one. Of course, now I almost feel guilty.

 

[BondiHarry]

So that whole slavery deal, the genocide of the native populations, testing diseases on our own population, that was all with gods good will?

There are other players besides God in American history. Then as now many men have had no use for God in their lives and the evils you mention spring from such as they and not those who follow the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Defensor Fidei]

Not according to the final destination of the attitude he espouses. While not many ever go that far, an NWO is, in fact, the end result.

I just had a sudden urge to dismiss you completely after reading this, but I'm pressing forward in the hopes that I misunderstood you.

So you are dismissing me because I would prefer to stick to facts rather than dwell on NWO conspiracy theories?

While I agree that certain corporations and banks around the globe have had a hand in the degradation of society as a whole, such events and entities do not fall upon the shoulders of the US alone. In fact, stating that all of these entities are supported by the US is amazingly bigoted and short-sighted.

The U.S. supports them and they support the U.S. government in return. The corporations that benefit from government-forced 'globalization' in turn finance the politicians who implemented such policies.

The IMF and World Bank are both headquartered in Washington. When they force nations around the world to liberalize and open up their markets to U.S. corporations, it is not for the benefit of the people who live there.

I do have a suggestion for you, however. Get the exact number of just how many of these countries specifically requested our presence, or in which we are present at the request/demand of the UN.

That really doesn't matter. Having the UN or NATO support militarism does not justify it. Even worse is having a corrupt tyrannical regime "request our presence" like our friends the Saudis.

I prefer these colors to any other- I prefer to salute and hold high these colors more than any other combination, but the flag of the United States is what we're talking about. It could be purple, cerulean and convict orange- If it's the flag of the United States, I support it. Why? Because that's the country I live in, and for better or worse, it is the ONE country I love.

Rather a shame it is to limit one's love for others to only those living on the same mass of dirt.

I don't believe I've ever heard a rational person claim that we are singularly blessed by God, but uniquely I agree with. Every single individual is uniquely blessed by God, because we are all unique- How much more a country?!

You're right, individuals are unique. God created human beings, not countries.

Furthermore, the US is the best country to live in- In my opinion. Someone from Denmark will have a different opinion, as will someone from Singapore. Every country claims that, and every country's citizens, in general, feel that way to some degree or another.

Nationalists in every country feel that way. Patriots can love their country without insisting on how much better it is than other countries.

Now, to say that these beliefs are unique to the US... THAT is asininity.

I don't believe anyone here claimed that.

Precisely. Which is one reason I thank God daily I was born here, and not somewhere else.

Let me ask you something- How many people immigrate to the US on a daily basis? How many leave to claim citizenship elsewhere on a daily basis?

There are plenty of places to be born that are worse than the U.S. There are also plenty of places to be born that would be different, but not necessarily worse than the U.S.

With the possible exception of Canada, every one of those countries was forged via military tactics, underhanded dealings, and sycophantic methodology. In fact, even Canada joined with us in Afghanistan, as did Australia. Speaking of Australia, they just recently admitted to attempted genocide.

Canada and Australia sending along a few token troops to OUR aggressive war somehow makes them equal to our 130 country military empire?

I also find it interesting that you list Switzerland, Norway, Denmark, Finland, Austria and Sweden. Every one of these countries except Sweden have mandatory military service; Sweden made theirs subject to a Conscientious Objector clause just over a year ago.

Even more interesting- Each of the countries you list are members of the United Nations, and all but Switzerland have their forces pledged to the UN for "peacekeeping missions."

So, to answer your last three questions simply: Yes.

Again, you are trying to equivocate a country simply having a military to defend itself, with the U.S. having bases in 130 countries and having initiated multiple wars of aggression in recent years.

Not true- SOME people fawn over Obama just as SOME people fawned over Bush. With the possible exception of George Washington, there has never been a single person for whom the entire country was starry-eyed.

So both sides have their party and president to fawn over. And both parties/presidents represent the same things.

Understand something very clearly, because it may affect your desire to continue dealing with me:

I will call any man, woman or child a liar if their terms do not match up with their definitions- And it is done intentionally. Zinn describes patriotism, and labels it Nationalism. Zinn, by his intentional misdirection, was a liar.

If you are going to accuse someone of being a liar, I think it would be best if you had some evidence rather than mere musings.

 

[David Brider]

Hmmm. Emergent church?

No, just fairly basic Methodist.

Why - does that make a difference?

 

[TerranceL]

There are other players besides God in American history. Then as now many men have had no use for God in their lives and the evils you mention spring from such as they and not those who follow the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Hilarious.

God has blessed this country! We are blessed by God! Unless you bring up the horrible things done, that was somebody else.

 

[RETS]

So you are dismissing me because I would prefer to stick to facts rather than dwell on NWO conspiracy theories?

You'll notice I responded to you- Ergo, I did not dismiss you. I was tempted to do so, however, because you've exhibited a rather dim view of this country beyond simple "I don't approve of ____."

Every fact I've seen you present here has been... Well, multi-interpretive, to say the least.

Also, I am not the one dwelling on the NWO angle. I mentioned it once- You've continued to perpetuate its resurrection in this discussion.

The U.S. supports them and they support the U.S. government in return. The corporations that benefit from government-forced 'globalization' in turn finance the politicians who implemented such policies.

Uh-huh. I'll say it once more for the cheap seats. The US is not the only country who plays host to several multinational/global financial and business organizations.

The IMF and World Bank are both headquartered in Washington. When they force nations around the world to liberalize and open up their markets to U.S. corporations, it is not for the benefit of the people who live there.

The IMF and the World Bank are United Nations creations. They are both headquartered in the US, but they are hardly US tools for corruption- The direction you seem to be heading in.

The World Bank is traditionally headed up by an American, true; however, the IMF is headed, traditionally, by a European.

Furthermore, are you aware that the US is on the verge of losing a case before the WTO? Indonesia brought charges against it for the banning of kreteks- And neither of your evil entities have leveled their considerable power against Indonesia.

That really doesn't matter. Having the UN or NATO support militarism does not justify it. Even worse is having a corrupt tyrannical regime "request our presence" like our friends the Saudis.

...Again, you are trying to equivocate a country simply having a military to defend itself, with the U.S. having bases in 130 countries and having initiated multiple wars of aggression in recent years.

...Canada and Australia sending along a few token troops to OUR aggressive war somehow makes them equal to our 130 country military empire?

Regardless, we are not there as an expansionist force- Rather, by request or command. This is directly in controversy with your initially stated portrayal of the US and their presence.

Furthermore, you and I are never going to budge the other regarding the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. I would recommend neither of these be used in the future.

In Regards to Canada and Australia, you are espousing a writer who states that only impotent countries, those without military might, can afford patriotism. (Or "nationalism," as he calls it.) They have enough military power to offer aid and still be comfortable as only a well defended country can.

I also noted that you did not, or could not, respond to the rest of my post regarding your country listings...

Selah.

Rather a shame it is to limit one's love for others to only those living on the same mass of dirt.

You're placing words in my mouth. I never said anything about love of others. AT ALL.

You're right, individuals are unique. God created human beings, not countries.

Mhmmm. Yet God has also blessed countries, and done so for the people it was made up of. The US is one of several... Cuz, you know... There's only a *few* countries on the planet.

Nationalists in every country feel that way. Patriots can love their country without insisting on how much better it is than other countries.

I believe it is better than any other place I could be. Period. That's my opinion. The guy I know in Germany believes his country is better than mine, but only because he would not want to live here.

One of the many differences between patriots and nationalists is the militant nature of their conviction. We both can feel that way and live at peace with one another. Let one take up arms to "prove" their view is right, though...

I don't believe anyone here claimed that.

Not directly.

There are plenty of places to be born that are worse than the U.S. There are also plenty of places to be born that would be different, but not necessarily worse than the U.S.

Which is your opinion, and I say you're welcome to it. I've got no problem with your views- Until you would rather turn the US into another country, instead of moving to the country you want to turn it into.

So both sides have their party and president to fawn over. And both parties/presidents represent the same things.

And if I've ever given you the impression that I care deeply for one party more than another, I repent. I think each of these major parties ought to be abolished and reformed... Possibly. Might be better off without either.

However, that was not the point. The point was that a large group of people can support the country, and feel it's the best one they could ever live in, without having to say a flattering word about their leadership- Ever. They can trash talk those in leadership without fear of being silenced in one way or another... That freedom does not exist in a Nationalist country.

If you are going to accuse someone of being a liar, I think it would be best if you had some evidence rather than mere musings.

All the evidence I need to possess you've already presented. Read his article and compare the terms he used to the description he gave.

Thanks for supplying that for me.

 

[RETS]

No, just fairly basic Methodist.

Why - does that make a difference?

It's just been my personal experience that the majority of Humanist Christians have come from the Emergent Church movement.

I was merely curious, not making a personal slam.

 

[DeaneRenata]

Guys I am just bothered by politics in general.

 

[GigageiTsula]

As a Native American, I find this whole discussion rather interesting.

 

[revanneosl]

By Lloyd Stone (to be sung to the tune Finlandia, by Sibleius)

This is my song, Oh God of all the nations,
A song of peace for lands afar and mine.
This is my home, the country where my heart is;
Here are my hopes, my dreams, my sacred shrine.
But other hearts in other lands are beating,
With hopes and dreams as true and high as mine.

My country’s skies are bluer than the ocean,
And sunlight beams on cloverleaf and pine.
But other lands have sunlight too and clover,
And skies are everywhere as blue as mine.
Oh hear my song, oh God of all the nations,
A song of peace for their land and for mine.

May truth and freedom come to every nation;
may peace abound where strife has raged so long;
that each may seek to love and build together,
a world united, righting every wrong;
a world united in its love for freedom,
proclaiming peace together in one song.

 

[Defensor Fidei]

Uh-huh. I'll say it once more for the cheap seats. The US is not the only country who plays host to several multinational/global financial and business organizations.

The IMF and the World Bank are United Nations creations. They are both headquartered in the US, but they are hardly US tools for corruption- The direction you seem to be heading in.

The World Bank is traditionally headed up by an American, true; however, the IMF is headed, traditionally, by a European.

And, once again, "other countries do it too" is not a valid excuse for anything. I said the U.S. has flaws; I never said other countries were perfect.

Furthermore, are you aware that the US is on the verge of losing a case before the WTO? Indonesia brought charges against it for the banning of kreteks- And neither of your evil entities have leveled their considerable power against Indonesia.

A dispute over a flavored cigarette ban?

I'm talking about major policy initiatives that transform a nation's economic status. 'Free trade' agreements like NAFTA, advocated by U.S. politicians and corporate interests, harm the people of other countries, but they also harm Americans themselves. Now Obama is pushing for more 'free trade' agreements with Korea that will benefit multinational corporations and North Korea at our own expense.

Regardless, we are not there as an expansionist force- Rather, by request or command. This is directly in controversy with your initially stated portrayal of the US and their presence.

We are there as an imperial force propping up illegitimate regimes.

It would be like the Vichy France regime requesting Nazi German 'presence' to put down free French resistance.

Furthermore, you and I are never going to budge the other regarding the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. I would recommend neither of these be used in the future.

Anyone who still supports those disastrous wars is clearly immune to facts and logic, so what else is there to say?

In Regards to Canada and Australia, you are espousing a writer who states that only impotent countries, those without military might, can afford patriotism. (Or "nationalism," as he calls it.) They have enough military power to offer aid and still be comfortable as only a well defended country can.

Canada and Australia do not have "military might". Let's stop being disingenuous here. None of the countries I mentioned have launched wars of aggression in recent times. No other country in the world spends what we spend on military expenditures.

I also noted that you did not, or could not, respond to the rest of my post regarding your country listings...

What are you talking about? I addressed the point several times now. There is no reasonable comparison to be made between the militaristic and aggressive U.S. empire, and any of the other countries I mentioned. When's the last time Sweden or Switzerland invaded another country?

You're placing words in my mouth. I never said anything about love of others. AT ALL.

You said the U.S. is "the ONE country" that you love. What is a country besides people? You just love the abstract idea of "America"?

Mhmmm. Yet God has also blessed countries, and done so for the people it was made up of. The US is one of several... Cuz, you know... There's only a *few* countries on the planet.

Sorry to break it to ya, but God was not there to sign the Declaration of Independence. He did not author the Constitution, nor has he appointed our congresspeople and presidents.

I believe it is better than any other place I could be. Period. That's my opinion. The guy I know in Germany believes his country is better than mine, but only because he would not want to live here.

Nationalism is always harmful regardless of which particular nation an individual is from. Fortunately Germany is no longer in a position where nationalist fervor gets translated into aggressive warmongering. The U.S. has picked up where Nazi Germany left off.

Which is your opinion, and I say you're welcome to it. I've got no problem with your views- Until you would rather turn the US into another country, instead of moving to the country you want to turn it into.

And once again we see the phoniness of nationalism as opposed to patriotism. Your love of country is conditional on it pursuing policies you agree with as opposed to ones I would advocate?

The changes I would like to see in American society are positive ones; is progress not allowed?

However, that was not the point. The point was that a large group of people can support the country, and feel it's the best one they could ever live in, without having to say a flattering word about their leadership- Ever. They can trash talk those in leadership without fear of being silenced in one way or another... That freedom does not exist in a Nationalist country.

They "trash talk" only within the spectrum of acceptable debate. Creating the illusion of diverse viewpoints is exactly the goal of the power elites in America. Democrats and Republicans are divided and attack each other over petty nonsense, but the gatekeepers on both sides ensure that their followers remain obedient to the State on all issues that matter. It is controlled opposition.

Nationalism does not require a single all-powerful leader-for-life.

All the evidence I need to possess you've already presented. Read his article and compare the terms he used to the description he gave.

Thanks for supplying that for me.

Well I disagree. What he describes and condemns is nationalism, and that is what I am talking about too. Flag-waving while blowing up other countries is not true patriotism, but a very shallow nationalism.

 

[Vasallus]

OK, it's the 5th. The holiday is over. The flag bashing can stop now. Horse....dead.