Pursuing a Man vs. Waiting to be Pursued

[Paulie079]

Well said, jess. According to the model given to us by Christ, leadership and submission are exactly the same thing. That's the whole point: leadership by example, and mutual submission. And that is where any attempt to provide moral backing for culturally-founded gender roles hits a wall and breaks into pieces.

I agree to an extent, except that the word "submission" isn't used when describing the husband's role.

So while I would say that there is a mutual submission on the part of each, it looks different for the man and for the woman. I think that's important to make clear.

 

[jess9450]

I agree with the idea that "a marriage should be a partnership with both husbands and wives giving and taking in the relationship," however, submission on the part of the wife goes right along with that. Also, you really have to be aware of what your definition of submission is.

Biblical submission is not:
-Being quiet
-Withholding opinions
-Mindlessly following and obeying
-Tirelessly serving
-Applicable to non-Christians

Biblical submission is:
-Trusting
-Following leadership
-Applicable only to believers

And just to provide the other side of things...

Biblical headship/leadership is not:
-Domineering/over-powering
-Self-serving
-Beligerent
-Lazy
-Passive

Biblical headship/leadership is:
-Servanthood
-Selfless
-Responsible
-Caring and gentle
-Courageous
-Christ-centered

Two things are incredibly important here:
1. This applies in a Christian context. Women have no reason to follow the leadership of men who are not truly Christ-following Christians. Does this mean that non-Christian men can't be good husbands? No. But it does mean that their leadership is lacking, even if it's good.

2. It is absolutely not the job of the man to play Holy Spirit and make sure the wife is fulfilling her role as wife. And it is absolutely not the job of the woman to play Holy Spirit and make sure the husband is fulfilling his role as husband. Is it okay to approach them and challenge them to be better? Not at all. But the man should be always mainly concerned about loving and serving his wife while the woman should be always mainly concerned about loving and serving her husband. (And how they love and serve the other will look different because *spoiler alert* men and women are different. )

Yep, and I can understand where you're (well, other guys too ) coming from as well. Maybe it's the wording that some men use "I'm a man therefore I have authority over you" that really gets to me. I was raised in a family of very strong and sometimes opinionated women, so I can get rankled by hearing that...

 

[Paulie079]

Yep, and I can understand where you're (well, other guys too ) coming from as well. Maybe it's the wording that some men use "I'm a man therefore I have authority over you" that really gets to me. I was raised in a family of very strong and sometimes opinionated women, so I can get rankled by hearing that...

Yeah, that's a misunderstanding of authority. Authority/headship doesn't mean that men have the right to tell women what to do. And any man saying anything to the tune of "I'm a man therefore I have authority over you" is violating the very last point I made in my last post. It's not his job to enforce someone else's practice of their roles. In fact, his shutting up and fulfilling his role in a biblical and godly way will likely cause her to want to fulfill hers in a biblical and godly way. That's the beauty of the complementarian model of marriage that the Bible lays out.

 

[MacFall]

How does it look different? And what, if any, are the substantive, spiritual differences behind how it looks? How, in fact, could any such difference exist once one recognizes that Christian leadership and Christian submission are the same thing?

 

[Paulie079]

How does it look different? And what, if any, are the substantive, spiritual differences behind how it looks? How, in fact, could any such difference exist once one recognizes that Christian leadership and Christian submission are the same thing?

Because men and women are different. Men are primarily satisfied within the context of marriage in different ways than women are primarily satisfied.

 

[Nilloc]

Good lord... It's kind of annoying when you act like a crime is being committed against humanity and it's up to you to stop it.

I'm curious: how would you react if someone said the same thing, except about race instead of sex? Like if I said, "God created Race X to have authority over Race Y and to be the leader"? Would you react like a crime was committed against humanity?

 

[MacFall]

Because men and women are different. Men are primarily satisfied within the context of marriage in different ways than women are primarily satisfied.

But now you're talking biology. I'm talking about spiritual differences, as in responsibility and privilege.

 

[ImperatorWall]

Bible says wives submit to husbands, not the other way around. This is a spiritual and practical obligation that the wife performs differently than the husband.

 

[Paulie079]

I'm curious: how would you react if someone said the same thing, except about race instead of sex? Like if I said, "God created Race X to have authority over Race Y and to be the leader"? Would you react like a crime was committed against humanity?

Probably. Except that would be a very different situation.

 

[Paulie079]

But now you're talking biology. I'm talking about spiritual differences, as in responsibility and privilege.

Well, you could say the responsibilities are the same from a bird's eye view. The husband and wife should love and respect each other. But the way those responsibilities are carried out looks very different. And the differences between men and women really are not just biological.

 

[Nilloc]

Probably. Except that would be a very different situation.

How is it different?

 

[Toro]

Bible says wives submit to husbands, not the other way around. This is a spiritual and practical obligation that the wife performs differently than the husband.

It depends on the submission the wife must submit to.

A man and a woman are joined as one in marriage, it is more about two people working as one. NOT who wears the pants.

Will I give in to my wife if I have one, sometimes YES. When something really matters, NO I will not bend.

Example, I like blue say she likes purple and wants a purple dress to wear instead of blue. I am not going to tell her TAKE IT BACK AND GET BLUE!! Now say she wants to have sex with another man. I will say GOOD BYE without hesitation.

Yes that example are extremes but it was to illustrate a point. Women still have free will, they are not robots or slaves to men. If God meant them to be subservient slaves they would not have minds of their own, they would not have free will of their own.

Within reason a man is to submit to his wife as his wife is submitted to him. It is not just "Man says, woman doesn't matter"

What would be better, a household to be run by an immature child in a mans body or a woman that is responsible and intelligent?

Why is an intelligent woman so intimidating to some men. Seriously.

Now if you would like to say God never intended woman to drive, you might have a case as he didn't seem to give most of them the ability to do so.

 

[Strider1002]

They should submit to each other, for one reason alone: love.

 

[Paulie079]

How is it different?

Races of humanity are totally equal in terms of their duties and responsibilities on earth. Genders of humanity are equal in dignity and worth, but not in terms of their duties and responsiblities. Men and women are asked by God to do different things because they are created to do different things.

And aside from that, I think MacFall was raising an issue where there is none. He simply read what he wanted to out of Spunkn's post and then jumped down his throat for it, which he has a frequent tendency to do. The annoying part about it is that it's the internet. Jumping down someone's throat and acting like a jerk about it isn't exactly pressing forward your cause effectively (assuming there was a cause to press forward, which in this case there was not) and talking about it on the internet doesn't do much either.

 

[MacFall]

Well, you could say the responsibilities are the same from a bird's eye view. The husband and wife should love and respect each other. But the way those responsibilities are carried out looks very different. And the differences between men and women really are not just biological.

So, answer my original question then. How do they look different? What spiritual differences are there that cause the difference in the way they look?

(I'm going to tell you up front though, I don't believe in such spiritual differences. Both man and woman are made in God's image, and God is One God.)

 

[Nilloc]

Races of humanity are totally equal in terms of their duties and responsibilities on earth.

Says who? There are plenty of southern preachers prior to the mid-twentieth century who would dispute that.

Men and women are asked by God to do different things because they are created to do different things.

So if there was a Bible verse that said that one race was to lead and another to follow, you would have no problem with that?

 

[Paulie079]

So, answer my original question then. How do they look different? What spiritual differences are there that cause the difference in the way they look?

(I'm going to tell you up front though, I don't believe in such spiritual differences. Both man and woman are made in God's image, and God is One God.)

God is also three Persons, each with distinct roles

Spiritually, men are called primarily to provide leadership. They are also called to provide for their families financially, which is more spiritual than you might think. They are called to lay down their lives for the family. This is a different type of submission than the submission that wives are called to.

Spiritually, women are called primarily to be helpers and to submit to their husbands' leadership.

And God has created men and women with the spiritual ability to fulfill these roles if their relationship is centered around Christ.

And as you might notice, you can't just separate spiritual traits from physical, emotional, and mental traits, because they're all tied together.

 

[Paulie079]

Says who? There are plenty of southern preachers prior to the mid-twentieth century who would dispute that.

So? They're bigots with no biblical basis for their belief. What's your point anyways?

So if there was a Bible verse that said that one race was to lead and another to follow, you would have no problem with that?

Well, I would hesitate to develop a whole understanding of something like that based off of one verse. I would rather read the one verse in light of the whole work of Scripture, but in general, if that principle was laid out in Scripture, I would be challenged to address and agree with it. But that isn't in Scripture, sooooo....

 

[MacFall]

God is also three Persons, each with distinct roles

Are you saying it would be improper for any of God's three persons to do what the other persons do? I would say rather that it is logically impossible. Which is clearly not the case with men and women, who regularly defy gender roles (and not with ill-effect, for that matter).

Spiritually, men are called primarily to provide leadership.

And leadership is service, and women are also called to serve. So this doesn't prove anything.

They are also called to provide for their families financially

This is not evident in scripture unless you're willing to reinstate the entire Old Testament system. Nor is it the case that men are inherently better than women at providing financially.

They are called to lay down their lives for the family. This is a different type of submission than the submission that wives are called to.

No it is not. It is EXACTLY the kind of submission that ALL CHRISTIANS are called to. A wife who would not lay down her life for her family does not love as Christ loved.

Spiritually, women are called primarily to be helpers and to submit to their husbands' leadership.

Helping one another is an aspect of love, and her husband's leadership is nothing other than one half of mutual submission. So again, this doesn't prove anything.

And as you might notice, you can't just separate spiritual traits from physical, emotional, and mental traits, because they're all tied together.

Do you think that our spiritual natures derive from our biological natures? You'd find good company with atheist psychologists if you do...

The simple fact is that gender roles as we know them are only a few hundred years old, and they're already archaic. There's nothing inherent about them. It's tradition for tradition's sake.

 

[Nilloc]

So? They're bigots with no biblical basis for their belief.

And some can (and have) say the same thing about your belief. Of course, Paul addresses this issue in Galatians, where the Jews thought that Gentiles couldn't have table fellowship with everyone else (different roles). Paul argues against that, yet in that same epistle, Paul asserts the equality of men and women in the same place that he does Jews and Gentiles, so you probably wouldn't want to rely on that.

What's your point anyways?

That the arguments you're using follow the exact same formula as those who asserted that one race was above another.

Pastor Gives Anti-Gay Rights Speech With Surprise Twist Ending - YouTube

Well, I would hesitate to develop a whole understanding of something like that based off of one verse. I would rather read the one verse in light of the whole work of Scripture, but in general, if that principle was laid out in Scripture, I would be challenged to address and agree with it.

I think I'll let that speak for itself--the Divine Command Theory at its worst.