Purgatory

[Major1]

Well that’s a rather rude way to put it. You misunderstood me. I wasn’t talking about praying for someone before they die hence the reference to God’s omniscience and omnipresence. When you pray for someone after they have died did God know about your prayer before that person died or does He have to wait until you actually make the prayer?

My apologies! I thought you meant praying for someone after they had died.
IMO.....death closes the door to prayer for that dead person. What ever that person choose in his lifetime then becomes his reality at death.....eternally as there will be no changes after death.

 

[Major1]

Until 1 Corinthians 15:55-56 and Revelation 20:12-15 are FULFILLED, ALL the Dead Go to Hades, Righteous and Wicked, Separated by a gulf, but encompassed in Hades.
hades is not emptied by any means besides RESURRECTION.

You have no scripture that teaches any souls in any part of hades are RAISED to Heaven PRIOR to their Resurrection.
Not even one.
I realize you WANT it to be that way, and it may FEEL GOOD to think that what you claim is true, but Desires and Feelings are no substitute for Solid scriptural teaching.

Your futurism forces you to create two of everything separated by thousands of years and pointing to different referents. Futurism seeks anything other than letting the scriptures interpret the scriptures.

You claim the righteous get raised to heaven and are granted eternal life upon physical death, and then get a second "raising and eternal life" granted at the Parousia. Your futurism mandates you take a single concept and make two out of it and assign it to separate things, one for you now and one for you somewhere down the line, perhaps even thousands of years away.

That said, Does God hear and respond to the Cries of the righteous in Hades/Sheol?
Jonah 2:2
“Out of the belly of Sheol I cried,
And You heard my voice.

NO my friend. I have NO WANTS or NEEDS and I do not need to FEEL anything. Neither do I CLAIM anything!!

Neither do I have a need to argue anything and all I do is post CHRISTIAN Bible teachings.

The Bible reports that sometime between His crucifixion and His resurrection, Jesus went to hell. In fact, Ephesians 4:9 says that Jesus .....
“first descended into the lower parts of the earth.”

Why? The Bible says it was to set the captives free and to take the very keys to hell away from Satan. Otherwise, how could we ever claim to have victory over death?

That’s what Jesus meant when He said in Revelation 1:18......
“I am he who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.”

Since that is what the Scriptures actually say, then how could Jesus have been in two places at the same time? After all, He told the thief on the cross in Luke 23:43....“Today you will be with me in Paradise.”

You might find it a little surprising, but the Bible records that Paradise was in Hades.
That is the GREEK word for the Hebrew word Sheol which is the place of the dead's spirits. That’s right. Jesus spoke about it when He told the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16:22-23.......

“So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.”

The truth is that Scripture supports that Hades included both hell AND heaven (Abraham’s bosom, or what Jesus and many of the everyday Jews of his day referred to as Paradise).

According to Jesus, in between the two was Luke 16:26.....
“A great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.”

There’s even more biblical evidence that Paradise may not have been in heaven at that time. Remember, just three days after Jesus told the thief that he would be in Paradise with Him, He asked Mary Magdalene, who first saw Him in resurrected form, in John 20:17.........
“Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the My Father.”

If had not yet ascended to the Father, then Paradise was not located in heaven.

It certainly makes you think, doesn’t it? Maybe not!!!!

Even more thought provoking is what Paul said to the Church at Corinth. Paul also referred to Paradise, but spoke of it synonymously with the third heaven in
II Corinthians 12:2-4.......

“I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago – whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows – such a one was caught up in the third heaven. And I know such a man – whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows – how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.”

Could it be that there were two places called Paradise? I don’t think so.

Now, I admit that a lot of what I read you posting cannot be found in Scripture, what I do know IS FOUND in Scripture is that what happened between the death of Jesus and His resurrection, is that He went to the very jaws of hell to make sure that we could have victory over sin and death by WHAT HE DID FOR US ON THE CROSS!

 

[Albion]

Again, what are sins, but bad or wicked works (see Matthew 7:21-23, John 8:40, Galatians 5:19-21)

There are thoughts that are sinful, and omissions that are sinful, and more besides overt doings. And the latter probably would better be termed "actions." When "works" are referred to, it usually means--as in the scripture you cited--meritorious deeds AKA "good works."

 

[parousia70]

When "works" are referred to, it usually means--as in the scripture you cited--meritorious deeds AKA "good works."

So these Works in the scripture I cited, are "Good Works"?:
Galatians 5
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]: fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousies, wraths, factions, divisions, parties, 21 envyings, drunkenness, revellings, and such like; of which I forewarn you, even as I did forewarn you, that they who practise such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Really?

 

[parousia70]

Sin is anything that is contrary to the law or will of God. For example: if you lie, you have sinned.

You asked...............
"Can you give me an example of a "work" of a Christian that would be found insufficient and in need of burning away into nothing ?"

Yes I can......Matthew 5:22...The Lord Jesus Himself tells YOU the answer -
"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire. "

Unrepentant Sin Condemns. I agree.
What's your Point?

You asked this ...........
"a Good work sufficient but still in need of purifying (like Gold) after a person dies but before they are saved"

THINK about what you just said...."AFTER a person dies but before they are saved"!

Am I the only one who does not grasp this idea?

Perhaps you are the only one?
You would be the very first Christian of ANY sect I know of who even attempts to deny this text speaks of the judgment of God where the works of the faithful will be tested after death. It says our works will go through “fire,” figuratively speaking. In Scripture, “fire” is used metaphorically in two ways: as a purifying agent (Mal. 3:2-3; Matt. 3:11; Mark 9:49); and as that which consumes (Matt. 3:12; 2 Thess. 1:7-8). So it is a fitting symbol here for God’s judgment. Some of the “works” represented are being burned up and some are being purified. These works survive or burn according to their essential “quality” (Greek. hopoiov – of what sort).

Matthew Henry, again with some fine scholarship:

But of those that hold the foundation, and embrace the general doctrine of Christ’s being the mediator between God and man, there are two sorts:—I. Some build upon this foundation gold, silver, and precious stones (v. 12), namely, those who receive and propagate the pure truths of the gospel, who hold nothing but the truth as it is in Jesus, and preach nothing else. This is building well upon a good foundation, making all of apiece, when ministers not only depend upon Christ as the great prophet of the church, and take him for their guide and infallible teacher, but receive and spread the doctrines he taught, in their purity, without any corrupt mixtures, without adding or diminishing.II. Others build wood, hay, and stubble, on this foundation; that is, though they adhere to the foundation, they depart from the mind of Christ in many particulars, substitute their own fancies and inventions in the room of his doctrines and institutions, and build upon the good foundation what will not abide the test when the day of trial shall come, and the fire must make it manifest, as wood, hay, and stubble, will not bear the trial by fire, but must be consumed in it. There is a time coming when a discovery will be made of what men have built on this foundation: Every man’s work shall be made manifest, shall be laid open to view, to his own view and that of others. Some may, in the simplicity of their hearts, build wood and stubble on the good foundation, and know not, all the while, what they have been doing; but in the day of the Lord their own conduct shall appear to them in its proper light. Every man’s work shall be made manifest to himself, and made manifest to others, both those that have been misled by him and those that have escaped his errors. Now we may be mistaken in ourselves and others; but there is a day coming that will cure all our mistakes, and show us ourselves, and show us our actions in the true light, without covering or disguise: For the day shall declare it (that is, every man’s work), because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is, v. 13. The day shall declare and make it manifest, the last day, the great day of trial; see ch. 4:5

There is a day coming that will as nicely distinguish one man from another, and one man’s work from another’s, as the fire distinguishes gold from dross, or metal that will bear the fire from other materials that will be consumed in it. In that day, 1. Some men’s works will abide the trial —will be found standard. It will appear that they not only held the foundation, but that they built regularly and well upon it—that they laid on proper materials, and in due form and order. The foundation and the superstructure were all of a piece. The foundation-truths, and those that had a manifest connection with them, were taught together. It may not be so easy to discern this connection now, nor know what works will abide the trial then; but that day will make a full discovery. And such a builder shall not, cannot fail of a reward. He will have praise and honour in that day, and eternal recompence after it. Note, Fidelity in the ministers of Christ will meet with a full and ample reward in a future life. Those who spread true and pure religion in all the branches of it, and whose work will abide in the great day, shall receive a reward. And, Lord, how great! how much exceeding their deserts! 2. There are others whose works shall be burnt (v. 15), whose corrupt opinions and doctrines, or vain inventions and usages in the worship of God, shall be discovered, disowned, and rejected, in that day-shall be first manifested to be corrupt, and then disapproved of God and rejected. Note, The great day will pluck off all disguises, and make things appear as they are: He whose work shall be burnt will suffer loss. If he have built upon the right foundation wood and hay and stubble, he will suffer loss. His weakness and corruption will be the lessening of his glory, though he may in the general have been an honest and an upright Christian. This part of his work will be lost, turning no way to his advantage, though he himself may be saved. Observe, Those who hold the foundation of Christianity, though they build hay, wood, and stubble, upon it, may be saved.

I welcome the opportunity to examine ANY commentary you can produce that, like you, does not place this purification by fire "AFTER DEATH".

I'm Happy to review Any Scholarly, published Christian opinion that agrees with your claim that this scripture does not speak of a time "After the death" of the Christian.

Can you point us to one?

If you can't, then you just may have the answer to your question as to whether or not you are the only one.

 

[parousia70]

You may have tried to give me "YOUR" opinion my friend, but you have not pointed out in any way where I can validate that Purgatory/Sheol/Hades are the same thing.

Just so that we are are factually clear.......

1. Sheol is the Hebrew word for... reference to the grave or the home of the deceased.

2. Hades is the Greek word.........reference to the grave or the home of the deceased.

3. Purgatory is the Catholic name to a none existence place/experience.

If Facts are important, and pointing out the linguistic origins and Etymology of these 3 words is your genuine goal, then to reflect the Facts, #3 should read:
3. Purgatory (Latin: purgatorium; from purgare, “to purge”)

Now how about #4. Trinity

Feel free to show us That scripture, that Origin, and that meaning.

If you're merely puffing up your opinion, and attempting to disguise it as fact, then nevermind. Facts won't matter to you.

 

[parousia70]

Now, I admit that a lot of what I read you posting cannot be found in Scripture

I can easily say the same thing for what I read of you.

You have been soundly refuted many times on your unscriptural, erroneous teaching on Eph 4's, "Lead captivity Captive", for example, yet you continue to double down on that teaching with ZERO scriptural support for such a view...

It's rather remarkable, and now made even more so with your projection of your own lack of scriptural support onto me.

Interestingly, our readers are smart enough to see through it.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I can easily say the same thing for what I read of you.

You have been soundly refuted many times on your unscriptural, erroneous teaching on Eph 4's, "Lead captivity Captive", for example, yet you continue to double down on that teaching with ZERO scriptural support for such a view...

It's rather remarkable, and now made even more so with your projection of your own lack of scriptural support onto me.

Interestingly, our readers are smart enough to see through it.

Do you have any response to my reply to you on Post #132?

 

[Valletta]

My apologies! I thought you meant praying for someone after they had died.
IMO.....death closes the door to prayer for that dead person. What ever that person choose in his lifetime then becomes his reality at death.....eternally as there will be no changes after death.

Your belief is contradicted by the Bible.

 

[concretecamper]

I think someone is feeling ignored.

 

[Albion]

So these Works in the scripture I cited, are "Good Works"?:
Galatians 5
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]: fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousies, wraths, factions, divisions, parties, 21 envyings, drunkenness, revellings, and such like; of which I forewarn you, even as I did forewarn you, that they who practise such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Really?

See verse 22.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Oh sure, but there are "rules" that govern what is to be thought official and what doesn't meet that test.

Limbo always was speculation because there just isn't enough in scripture or tradition to permit a firm answer about the fate of unbaptized infants who die. However, the speculation was taught for hundreds of years as though it were official. Then the emphasis on God's mercy gradually replaced an emphasis on his justice. But with Purgatory, which was proclaimed by a church council, that change obviously presented problems, so it's been changed in a way that permits the claim that there really hasn't been a significant change.

I have some suspicions on the reasons it may have changed but I’ll refrain from encouraging any rumors on the subject since it’s only speculation and isn’t helpful in any way.

 

[BNR32FAN]

My apologies! I thought you meant praying for someone after they had died.
IMO.....death closes the door to prayer for that dead person. What ever that person choose in his lifetime then becomes his reality at death.....eternally as there will be no changes after death.

I don’t disagree with you brother although I have found myself praying for loved ones after they have died asking God to have mercy on them. Ultimately I know it’s His decision and I know that whatever He decides is best for everyone and no matter what He decides I will accept His decision.

 

[Albion]

I don’t disagree with you brother although I have found myself praying for loved ones after they have died asking God to have mercy on them. Ultimately I know it’s His decision and I know that whatever He decides is best for everyone and no matter what He decides I will accept His decision.

This is a different matter, however. And there are indeed churches which absolutely disavow the idea of a Purgatory but which nevertheless do pray in a general way that God will be merciful towards those who have passed on.

But this is not done in the belief that certain prayers are part of a formula by which a person experiencing punishment for sin will have certain doses of that punishment remitted, thanks to the number of prayers offered by someone else on his behalf, etc. "Praying him out of Purgatory," is how people sometimes describe that.

 

[parousia70]

Do you have any response to my reply to you on Post #132?

Sure, an example of a work that will be burned up is repeating endless prayers. The fact that one repeats prayers is a work. The fact that God is hardly impressed by them makes them works which will be burned up. Are they sin? I think not. Are they useless? Definitely.

1 Thessalonians 5:17

 

[Albion]

In fairness, praying without ceasing may be good to do. The question, however, and in context, concerns the possibility of this kind of prayer regimen being capable of putting away sin. In those churches which teach "works righteousness," the belief is that doing good deeds does enhance the person's chances of getting to heaven.

 

[parousia70]

In fairness, praying without ceasing may be good to do.

Rather, it's a COMMAND. We are COMANDED to do so.

The question, however, and in context, concerns the possibility of this kind of prayer regimen being capable of putting away sin.

Jesus Christ put away sin.

Sin has been defeated. Fully.

Sin is powerless to prevent anyone from Salvation. In fact, ONLY Sinners get saved.
Sin is no longer the measuring Stick God uses to determine who is saved and who is not.

The Law of Moses is what gave sin it's strength to keep people from God's presence (1 Corinthians 15:56), and Sin is no longer imputed against us when there is no Law (Romans 5:13)

Now, we are either "In Adam" Condemned regardless of whether we sin or not,

OR

We are "In Christ" Saved even though we sin.

The Power of Sin to Condemn, or lack of Sin to save, has been eradicated forever.

Like Satan, Sin is a defeated Foe.

 

[Albion]

Rather, it's a COMMAND. We are COMANDED to do so.

Terrific. I didn't say that it wasn't.

Jesus Christ put away sin.

Sin has been defeated. Fully.

So, you agree with what I wrote about that.

 

[parousia70]

Terrific. I didn't say that it wasn't.

Excellent

I was unclear from your response.. there are a lot of things that, as you said, "may be good to do", that aren't commands. It seems to me a command would erase any doubt about whether it IS a good thing to do or simply, speculatively, 'may" (or may not) be a good thing to do...

So, you agree with what I wrote about that.

Not exactly.
So far it seems like a Straw man, as you provided no examples of such a thing.

I mean, that like me asking if you would agree with me that you should stop beating your wife?

Pretty much baseless, though I assume you would agree that beating your wife is wrong.

 

[Albion]

I was unclear from your response.. there are a lot of things that, as you said, "may be good to do", that aren't commands. It seems to me a command would erase any doubt about whether it IS a good thing to do or simply, speculatively, 'may" (or may not) be a good thing to do...

Very well. It is good to pray, even unceasingly. No one is arguing against that.

Not exactly.
So far it seems like a Straw man, as you provided no examples of such a thing.

No examples of...what? Of good deeds?