Purgatory

[Albion]

p.s. post #434 seems to be doing just what I said - Catholics readily show Scripture is consistent with Church teaching - that Scripture "supports" Church teaching. This is not "proving" anything, as post #434 demonstrates, as he says that the Catholic attempt fails in his eyes to "prove" anything. (It is not meant to!)

That post claimed that the attempt was made to show the church's teaching to be correct, and that this was done by referring to passages in Scripture.

However, none actually did show the church's belief to be in accord with Scripture, so the attempt failed.

Purgatory is a good example, by the way, since none of the verses that are normally used as 'proofs' of the existence of Purgatory come anywhere near to showing that there is, in fact, such a state of being in the afterlife.

 

[fide]

That post claimed that the attempt was made to show the church's teaching to be correct, and that this was done by referring to passages in Scripture.

However, none actually did show the church's belief to be in accord with Scripture, so the attempt failed.

Purgatory is a good example, by the way, since none of the verses that are normally used as 'proofs' of the existence of Purgatory come anywhere near to showing that there is, in fact, such a state of being in the afterlife.

When individuals are free to interpret Scripture independently - as protestantism insists - we can all expect a wide spectrum of "Scriptural doctrines" that result in a wide spectrum of "true Christian" denominations. Welcome to the world of confusion.

When a man wants Truth, and is tired of "pick the church of your choice", the Catholic Faith is available.

 

[bbbbbbb]

When individuals are free to interpret Scripture independently - as protestantism insists - we can all expect a wide spectrum of "Scriptural doctrines" that result in a wide spectrum of "true Christian" denominations. Welcome to the world of confusion.

When a man wants Truth, and is tired of "pick the church of your choice", the Catholic Faith is available.

The beauty of the RCC is that it requires no proof at all for any of its doctrines and practices. Its members are required to blindly believe everything that is handed to them. Thus, we have doctrines which are entirely unique to the RCC and which have been formulated by its Magisterium for reasons entirely unknown to anyone other than themselves. The Catechism of the Catholic Church merely sets out the requisite beliefs, albeit it does make serious attempts to rationalize them.

 

[Albion]

When individuals are free to interpret Scripture independently - as protestantism insists

"Free to." That's right. The believer has a right to access Scripture, which as you know once was not permitted.

However, it is not believed that anything the individual thinks he's reading is as good as anything else. In practice, there is no significant difference between Catholicism and Protestantism on this issue. Both have doctrinal standards and the members of both branches of the Christian faith are today able to read the Bible themselves and, in fact, are encouraged by their respective churches to do so.

But as for what we were discussing before, I do "get" what you were saying--that you believe your church comes by the truth simply through the Holy Spirit inspiring acceptance of a belief. The idea that Scripture may confirm it is secondary. I know other religious movements and church bodies that approach the matter the same way.

When a man wants Truth, and is tired of "pick the church of your choice", the Catholic Faith is available.

That sounds good, but of course Roman Catholicism has as many internal disagreements as most of the Protestant denominations do. Depending on which one of the latter you'd choose to compare your church with, it could be that Roman Catholicism has even more of them.

 

[fide]

......

That sounds good, but of course Roman Catholicism has as many internal disagreements as most of the Protestant denominations do. Depending on which one of the latter you'd choose to compare your church with, it could be that Roman Catholicism has even more of them.

The institutional "Catholic Church" at this difficult time in history does indeed have "internal disagreements" that are very hard to bear, for those who love, who cherish, who hold fast to what I referred to above, "the Catholic Faith":

"When a man wants Truth, and is tired of "pick the church of your choice", the Catholic Faith is available."​

There are now "Catholics" in the institutional laity, and clergy including bishops and cardinals, who grieve the hearts of the faithful, those who treasure and follow the authentic Catholic Faith. I am ashamed to say this, but those unfaithful to this Faith have brought shame to the Church. The teaching of Vatican II (Lumen Gentium #8) remains true, even in this trying time:

"This is the one Church of Christ which in the Creed is professed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic, which our Saviour, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd, and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority, which He erected for all ages as "the pillar and mainstay of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15). This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him, although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity."​

 

[fide]

... we have doctrines which are entirely unique to the RCC and which have been formulated by its Magisterium for reasons entirely unknown to anyone other than themselves. The Catechism of the Catholic Church merely sets out the requisite beliefs, albeit it does make serious attempts to rationalize them

Yes the Church does have doctrines entirely unique to her, and are known, held tight, and lived because of holy and divine faith. The current universal Catechism does "make serious attempts to rationalize them" - that is true, as well she should. Yet not all that is believed can be reduced to rationalization, because the foundation of holy faith is reasonable only, only in and with the light of supernatural faith.

Faith that is salvific is more than the result of natural human reason. I hope you realize this. (please tell me you do!). For example, you can work from daylight to dusk trying to "reasonably" explain God to a committed atheist, and he will merely look at you with ridicule in his eyes. Speak to Pilate (who is judging you) of "truth" and he will say, cynically, "Truth? What is that?" (see Jn 18:38)

Above and before all else, a man must love - and seek - and hunger and long for Truth, holy and eternal Truth.

 

[Sheila Davis]

So i would like see scriptures considering this subject. Are there any scriptures which clearly tells us that this place exist?

There are no scriptures that clearly states purgatory exist.
And from what I've read I would say living on Earth in these flesh bodies is purgatory. It is here on earth where humans actions either condemns them to hell or redemption. Where God's cleansing takes place - where judgement is initiated.

 

[fide]

There are no scriptures that clearly states purgatory exist.
And from what I've read I would say living on Earth in these flesh bodies is purgatory. It is here on earth where humans actions either condemns them to hell or redemption. Where God's cleansing takes place - where judgement is initiated.

One could say that the Catholic understanding is that God's "A" plan is for Christians to achieve complete sanctification in their lifetime on this earth, and thus no purgatory would be necessary. BUT - perhaps many Christians do not achieve complete sanctification in this life. Thus God has a "B" plan: purgatory, to finish what was unfinished on this earth. God's grace is sufficient - if we all would receive His grace, and submit to His will, and live perfect love. But many, many is seems waste grace, waste suffering for love, and play when they should be striving for holiness.

 

[Sheila Davis]

One could say that the Catholic understanding is that God's "A" plan is for Christians to achieve complete sanctification in their lifetime on this earth, and thus no purgatory would be necessary. BUT - perhaps many Christians do not achieve complete sanctification in this life. Thus God has a "B" plan: purgatory, to finish what was unfinished on this earth. God's grace is sufficient - if we all would receive His grace, and submit to His will, and live perfect love. But many, many is seems waste grace, waste suffering for love, and play when they should be striving for holiness.

Indeed that could also be said - isn't it the Romans who initiated the usage of the word purgatory in the Catholic Church?

 

[concretecamper]

Indeed that could also be said - isn't it the Romans who initiated the usage of the word purgatory in the Catholic Church?

so gravity wasnt a reality until the word was coined? The need for purification after death is scriptural. If you are looking for a Latin word in the greek text, you ain't gonna find it.

 

[Sheila Davis]

so gravity wasnt a reality until the word was coined? The need for purification after death is scriptural. If you are looking for a Latin word in the greek text, you ain't gonna find it.

-

gravity / purgatory. A better analogy could have been used to try to prove whatever point you were trying to prove. Gravity exist - until it is proven purgatory exist, I stand by what I said.
When a word was coined is not proof of its existence.
Gravity has proven its existence throughout the lifespan of the Earth.

 

[fide]

-

gravity / purgatory. A better analogy could have been used to try to prove whatever point you were trying to prove. Gravity exist - until it is proven purgatory exist, I stand by what I said.
When a word was coined is not proof of its existence.
Gravity has proven its existence throughout the lifespan of the Earth.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.​

Debates that aim to "prove" something is true, is possible only among people of shared faith. The Apostle Thomas was walking on this ice, when he insisted on "proof" that the Lord had risen from the dead: he demanded to see with his own eyes.

Jn 20:25 So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord." But he said to them, "Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails, and place my finger in the mark of the nails, and place my hand in his side, I will not believe."​

No, if he did depend on seeing, he would not have faith. Faith is the conviction of things not seen. Thus the mystery of what happened to Thomas. Did he come to have faith, or did he not?

Sheilla, you might conclude, using human reason, that purgatory ought to exist, since many believers die with impurity still in their souls. But this would not be a matter of faith, which would be much better for you - as it was for Thomas:

Jn 20:29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe."​

 

[Sheila Davis]

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.​

Debates that aim to "prove" something is true, is possible only among people of shared faith. The Apostle Thomas was walking on this ice, when he insisted on "proof" that the Lord had risen from the dead: he demanded to see with his own eyes.

Jn 20:25 So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord." But he said to them, "Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails, and place my finger in the mark of the nails, and place my hand in his side, I will not believe."​

No, if he did depend on seeing, he would not have faith. Faith is the conviction of things not seen. Thus the mystery of what happened to Thomas. Did he come to have faith, or did he not?

Sheilla, you might conclude, using human reason, that purgatory ought to exist, since many believers die with impurity still in their souls. But this would not be a matter of faith, which would be much better for you - as it was for Thomas:

Jn 20:29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe."​

Another analogy I would not combine with proof.
It would be a matter of faith for me to believe in purgatory.
I have faith in the Lord God faith in Jesus and his ability to cleanse.
Purgatory takes away the cleansing power of Jesus.
Purgatory is saying that Jesus can't or didn't do his job in the removal of the stains of sin.

Jesus said no man comes to the Father except by me.

Here are 3 of a few scriptures that of the cleansing power of Jesus 1st John 1:7-9 _Hebrew 1:3 _ 1st Peter 1:22 now why would there even be a need for a purgatory?

Faith is what I need to believe in purgatory - I don't think so!

Jesus even told one of the thieves on the cross - this day you will be with me in Paradise, he didn't say the man was going to purgatory.

 

[fide]

Another analogy I would not combine with proof.
It would be a matter of faith for me to believe in purgatory.
I have faith in the Lord God faith in Jesus and his ability to cleanse.
Purgatory takes away the cleansing power of Jesus.
Purgatory is saying that Jesus can't or didn't do his job in the removal of the stains of sin.

Purgatory is not outside of - it is an integral part of - the plan of the Father for the redemption and salvation of human persons in and through the Son, with the Holy Spirit. Purgatory is an integral part of God's work!

Jesus said no man comes to the Father except by me.

Absolutely true.

Here are 3 of a few scriptures that of the cleansing power of Jesus 1st John 1:7-9 _Hebrew 1:3 _ 1st Peter 1:22 now why would there even be a need for a purgatory?

None of these passages contradict, but rather implicitly include purgatory as part of the divine work of sanctification unto perfect holiness. To enter the Kingdom of God, to stand in His Presence, requires perfect holiness - perfect and complete sanctification - absolute absence of anything contrary to the infinite and complete holiness of God.

Rev 21:27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.​

It seems obvious to me, knowing human nature that I do, that most persons die with spiritual impurity still remaining in their souls. Most still cling to particular loves for creatures in place of complete love for the Creator and only what is in Him; most still cling to love for their own selves with a disordered love, that is, a self-love greater than complete whole-hearted love for God and for all in Him. ALL impurities must be purged before one can enter the Kingdom. This after-death work of God occurs in what is called "purgatory."

Faith is what I need to believe in purgatory - I don't think so!

[The supernatural gift of] faith is needed to "believe in" [with supernatural/salvific believing] any truths of God.

Jesus even told one of the thieves on the cross - this day you will be with me in Paradise, he didn't say the man was going to purgatory.

This man was experiencing and embracing his needed purgations there and then, on his cross with Jesus his Lord. There is an important lesson there, to learn.

 

[Albion]

None of these passages contradict, but rather implicitly include purgatory as part of the divine work of sanctification unto perfect holiness.

WHERE are the passages that do this (implicitly include Purgatory as part of the divine work of sanctification)?

Punishing a person in the afterlife for sins that were already forgiven in this life has absolutely no basis in Scripture. Purgatory is entirely a Medieval conjecture.

It seems obvious to me, knowing human nature that I do, that most persons die with spiritual impurity still remaining in their souls.

You are correct. Purgatory rests upon a guess, supposition, rationalization, but not upon Scripture (or even Tradition, for that matter).

 

[fide]

Punishing a person in the afterlife for sins that were already forgiven in this life has absolutely no basis in Scripture. Purgatory is entirely a Medieval conjecture.

I am very happy that you made this statement - it reveals a basic misunderstanding that allows me to open the right door of response to you. The key word, and misunderstanding, is the word "punishing." Purgatory is about purging - removing something impure, emptying out of something impure, for the sake of leaving only what is pure, holy, refined as pure gold fitting for self-offering to God.

When a loving parent decides "punishment" for his beloved child, is it to make the child suffer for the sake of pain, as if pain is a good thing, and to make the child suffer is "for his own good"? I say NO! The loving parent decides what is often called "punishment" NOT for the sake of inflicting suffering on the child, but to teach the child that his bad behavior was bad, and to point him to the good that ought to have been chosen by him. "Punishment" is to correct him, not to hurt him!

Purgatory is for purification, not "punishment": to purge the soul of all that is impure, selfish, temporal, worldly, unworthy of the eternal Beatitude of Heaven and the eternal communion in love with God the Holy Trinity, and all the Saints in Glory.

The OT speaks of this necessary purification in mystery - a truth to be revealed more clearly in the Spirit after the Church Age began. But it can be heard, for those having ears to hear:

Mal 3:2 But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? "For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap;
Mal 3:3 he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right offerings to the LORD.​

When this refining is not completed in one's lifetime, "purgatory" is enabled, by the Cross and Blood of Christ, for all whose names are written in the Book of Life.

A NT passage that is more explicit is:

1Cor 3:12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—
1Cor 3:13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
1Cor 3:14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
1Cor 3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.​

We are saved for "good works" [Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.]. But if a man builds on the Foundation of Christ with impure works, of an impure heart, having mixed motives in his heart, NOT "gold, silver, precious stones" BUT RATHER "wood, hay, straw" (that is, perishable and "cheap" spiritual motives) then he will need purification if he keeps this impurity up to and into his death. "He himself will be saved" BUT "only as through fire" of refinement and purification. The impurity of soul will be "burned up" as "wood, hay, straw" would be - consumed - his soul left purified - by the "fires" of purgation.

 

[Albion]

I am very happy that you made this statement - it reveals a basic misunderstanding that allows me to open the right door of response to you. The key word, and misunderstanding, is the word "punishing." Purgatory is about purging - removing something impure, emptying out of something impure, for the sake of leaving only what is pure, holy, refined as pure gold fitting for self-offering to God.

Uh, yes it is. That is exactly what "the church" taught for 500 years until very recently when, realizing that today's Catholics don't believe in those Medieval hobgoblins any more, no matter what their church says about it...

the clergy and Catholic publications began gradually killing off Purgatory.

So if you want to argue for or against a "Purgatory" that doesn't purge, but is nothing more than what has been called "the celestial washroom" where the soul is quickly re-oriented it new home or whatever, and it's perfectly painless and unrelated to sin...go ahead. Just please don't say it's an assessment of "Purgatory."

 

[fide]

Uh, yes it is. That is exactly what "the church" taught for 500 years until very recently when, realizing that today's Catholics don't believe in those Medieval hobgoblins any more, no matter what their church says about it...

the clergy and Catholic publications began gradually killing off Purgatory.

So if you want to argue for or against a "Purgatory" that doesn't purge, but is nothing more than what has been called "the celestial washroom" where the soul is quickly re-oriented it new home or whatever, and it's perfectly painless and unrelated to sin...go ahead. Just please don't say it's an assessment of "Purgatory."

Purgatory has not been "killed off". And - His Church remains.

I'm not going to spoon-feed you. You are an adult. If you want to seriously pursue the teachings of the Church, you will find, and learn. If you want to merely insist upon and "justify" your "misunderstandings", you are free to do it, for now. In that Day, the Word will be made so clear that no man can refute it.

 

[Albion]

Purgatory has not been "killed off".

Choose another word if that offends you. "Phased out," perhaps. The fact remains that the church is dumping it, just as it did Limbo.

 

[Sheila Davis]

Purgatory is not outside of - it is an integral part of - the plan of the Father for the redemption and salvation of human persons in and through the Son, with the Holy Spirit. Purgatory is an integral part of God's work!



Absolutely true.



None of these passages contradict, but rather implicitly include purgatory as part of the divine work of sanctification unto perfect holiness. To enter the Kingdom of God, to stand in His Presence, requires perfect holiness - perfect and complete sanctification - absolute absence of anything contrary to the infinite and complete holiness of God.

Rev 21:27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.​

It seems obvious to me, knowing human nature that I do, that most persons die with spiritual impurity still remaining in their souls. Most still cling to particular loves for creatures in place of complete love for the Creator and only what is in Him; most still cling to love for their own selves with a disordered love, that is, a self-love greater than complete whole-hearted love for God and for all in Him. ALL impurities must be purged before one can enter the Kingdom. This after-death work of God occurs in what is called "purgatory."



[The supernatural gift of] faith is needed to "believe in" [with supernatural/salvific believing] any truths of God.



This man was experiencing and embracing his needed purgations there and then, on his cross with Jesus his Lord. There is an important lesson there, to learn.

As I said Faith in Jesus not purgatory - change my wording around any way you choose .... Nothing unclean into God's kingdom, purgatory is not necessary for cleansing that authority and power is given to Jesus .... Nowhere in scripture is it indicated that purgatory exist or is a part of God's plan for cleansing humans - the blood of Christ is the cleansing power, not of some sins but all sins for all names remain in the Lamb's Book of Life.
Fine - and you seem to believe in purgatory, fine for you - I don't. Thank you for your expressions - goodbye