Purgatory

[jhjhh]

So i would like see scriptures considering this subject. Are there any scriptures which clearly tells us that this place exist?

 

[HTacianas]

So i would like see scriptures considering this subject. Are there any scriptures which clearly tells us that this place exist?

2 Maccabees 12:45 records an atonement made for the dead. It does not specifically say where the dead were, only that an atonement was made for them.

 

[disciple Clint]

So i would like see scriptures considering this subject. Are there any scriptures which clearly tells us that this place exist?

Short answer NO there is nothing that clearly says that it exists. Frankly many people believe it was an invention of the Catholic Church. That happens when you have too many theologians sitting around trying to find something new to write about.

 

[DaveM]

there is a place in scripture that says only what last from the fire

So i would like see scriptures considering this subject. Are there any scriptures which clearly tells us that this place exist?

I dont thinks so, but some come close

1 Corinthians 3:15
If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Matthew 5:26
Truly, I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.

 

[jhjhh]

2 Maccabees 12:45 records an atonement made for the dead. It does not specifically say where the dead were, only that an atonement was made for them.

That wont cut it for me. Its apocrypha and secondly my understanding cant find purgatory from that chapter.

 

[Albion]

So i would like see scriptures considering this subject. Are there any scriptures which clearly tells us that this place exist?

No. None. The verse that is usually cited as "proof" comes from the Apocrypha, and it only reports that some Jews prayed for their dead colleagues that they might find divine mercy (2 Maccabees 12:46). It doesn't even say that these prayers were effective or that it is right and good for people to pray in this way, just that some Jews did so. And it does not suggest where those souls might be!

That doesn't even come close to proving the existence of what the Church defined as Purgatory in the 1400s, nor do any of the verses that refer to "fire" in the future. Obviously not. Not even if the Apocrypha were considered to be Holy Scripture.

 

[disciple Clint]

No. None. The verse that is usually cited as "proof" comes from the Apocrypha, and it only reports that some Jews prayed for their dead colleagues that they might find divine mercy. That doesn't even come close to proving the existence of what the Church defined as Purgatory. Not even if the Apocrypha were considered to be Holy Scripture.

I agree and in addition we need to remember that the Jews believed the dead had not been fully judged so their thinking was somewhat like soul sleep.

 

[Bob Crowley]

The specific term Purgatory is not in the Bible.

But the existence of Purgatory is certainly implied. I've attached a link which gives a reasonable explanation.

What is Purgatory?

As for somebody saying he could ignore Maccabees because it's from the Apocrypha, then why did Christ and the New Testament writers quote from the Apocrypha so many times?

DEUTEROCANONICAL BOOKS IN THE NEW TESTAMENT - Scripture Catholic

Quotes from the first link about Purgatory -

Saint Augustine in "CIty of God" -

It is between the particular and general judgments, then, that the soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin: “I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper” (Luke 12:59).

The words Trinity and Incarnation aren’t in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it.

Christ refers to the sinner who “will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come” (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? “He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering (“fire”) there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

Why would anyone go to purgatory? To be cleansed, for “nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]” (Rev. 21:27).

Catholic theology takes seriously the notion that “nothing unclean shall enter heaven.” From this it is inferred that a less than cleansed soul isn’t fit for heaven. It needs to be cleansed or “purged” of its remaining imperfections. Sanctification is thus not an option, something that may or may not happen before one gets into heaven. It is an absolute requirement, as Hebrews 12:14 states that we must strive “for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.”

Purgatory is a place of refining fire before we get into heaven. Anyone in Purgatory gets into heaven eventually ie. they don't go to hell. But not too many of us are going to just waltz into the perfection of heaven as soon as we die.

The thief on the cross may have entered paradise that day. But he did some pretty severe suffering between Christ's declaration and his admission to heaven. He stayed on that cross until the Roman soldiers broke his legs with something like a sledge hammer. One might say he did his purgatory there and then, in a very brutal fashion.

He was also a special case - he was literally crucified with Christ.

I think Protestants are kidding themselves when they try to convince themselves that Purgatory doesn't exist.

 

[Petros2015]

There are plenty of scriptures that speak of 'refinement' I think as one might purify gold.
In the sense of 'you are going to receive a level of punishment until you are fit for the kingdom or have paid your dues to the kingdom', I don't think that exists. And if it did, I can imagine that would take a few eternities. Kind of like needing to 'kill a few chickens if you want to make an omelette'. You end up with a mountain a dead chickens and no omelette in sight.

In the sense of 'the process of your purification will be completed', I think that will and must happen. That may be pure hell for the 'old man' and pure joy for the 'new man'. If I were to let the old man run the show while I lived, and to the degree I let the old man run the show I would expect that process to be more unpleasant for him. How long does a refining process take for something that is 10% dross? 50%? 100%? And how much gold is left over from something that has been refined which was 10% dross? 50%? 100%?

So, I don't think of purgatory as penal in any sense. No more than I would a bath, a dentist performing a final extraction of a bad tooth or chemotherapy. But attending to the Christian life and personal refinement here as much as I can, is in some sense both being true to the new man letting him grow and having mercy upon the old man (though you will never get him to admit it For him, it always feels like dying, and for me it always feels like living)

 

[Petros2015]

He was also a special case - he was literally crucified with Christ.

I had never heard anyone say or point that out before but I love it.

 

[Petros2015]

Heh. I tend to think of God as something like a Holy Fire, and the sinful nature as 'that part of me which would be combustible in the presence of a Holy Fire'. Thus, purgatory or even Hell is not so much a sentence as it is the natural outcome of one meeting the other.

We are coals that are called to be diamonds.

 

[jhjhh]

The specific term Purgatory is not in the Bible.

But the existence of Purgatory is certainly implied. I've attached a link which gives a reasonable explanation.

What is Purgatory?

As for somebody saying he could ignore Maccabees because it's from the Apocrypha, then why did Christ and the New Testament writers quote from the Apocrypha so many times?

DEUTEROCANONICAL BOOKS IN THE NEW TESTAMENT - Scripture Catholic

Quotes from the first link about Purgatory -

Saint Augustine in "CIty of God" -









Purgatory is a place of refining fire before we get into heaven. Anyone in Purgatory gets into heaven eventually ie. they don't go to hell. But not too many of us are going to just waltz into the perfection of heaven as soon as we die.

The thief on the cross may have entered paradise that day. But he did some pretty severe suffering between Christ's declaration and his admission to heaven. He stayed on that cross until the Roman soldiers broke his legs with something like a sledge hammer. One might say he did his purgatory there and then, in a very brutal fashion.

He was also a special case - he was literally crucified with Christ.

I think Protestants are kidding themselves when they try to convince themselves that Purgatory doesn't exist.

So are you saying that luke 12:59 is some kind of parable?

I think Protestants are kidding themselves when they try to convince themselves that Purgatory doesn't exist.

And you even gave it own name? Imaginative place, what we call purgatory. I dont need such doctrine, i dont see it giving me any benefit even if it was true. And because its not specifically mentioned in bible i can confidently ignore it with good conscience. What does it benefit you to have such doctrine with such lackluster evidence. Can live little more loose, because purgatory will cleanse me of my idol worship?

 

[Petros2015]

And because its not specifically mentioned in bible i can confidently ignore it with good conscience.

Gravity is not specifically mentioned or named in the bible either, though I think you will find it implied

 

[jhjhh]

Gravity is not specifically mentioned or named in the bible either, though I think you will find it implied

False doctrines are bad. They shouldnt be taken lightly.

 

[Petros2015]

False doctrines are bad. They shouldnt be taken lightly.

True, and I wouldn't spend time worrying specifically about it.

I just think that eventually we are all going to go though something and go 'OH! So THAT was what they were talking about!'

 

[plain jayne]

"It is appointed to man once to die and then the judgement." Hebrews 9:27

If we have to go to a place to pay for our own sins that weren't covered on this earth or to "cleanse" ourselves in preparation for heaven....

....then that means that Jesus Christ's atonement does NOT cover our sins in full and his shed blood is not cleansing.

And that is a lie

 

[jhjhh]

True, and I wouldn't spend time worrying specifically about it.

I just think that eventually we are all going to go though something and go 'OH! So THAT was what they were talking about!'

Some discernment is good to have.

14Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.” Matthew 15:14 NKJV

 

[Albion]

As for somebody saying he could ignore Maccabees because it's from the Apocrypha, then why did Christ and the New Testament writers quote from the Apocrypha so many times?

Because the Apocrypha is not trash or bogus. It has value, and the most prominent of the Reformation Protestant churches recognized that.

BUT that does not make it divine revelation upon which we can define doctrine, as we do with the Bible's books. And that is what is in focus in this particular discussion.

 

[thecolorsblend]

.

 

[concretecamper]

So i would like see scriptures considering this subject. Are there any scriptures which clearly tells us that this place exist?

you will not find the word purgatory in the bible, just as you will not find the word Trinity. However, the concept of purging after death is found in scripture as is has been demonstrated earlier in this thread.

Purgatory is just a name of the place or state it is called.