Purgatory

[fide]

Other denominations have similar explanations of their own.

For example, some that are of recent origin insist that the Apostolic church apostasized early on, but God intended to restore it in time. So that's them. That's why their denomination is correct--according to their theory.

Some others have their own sacred writings which, not surprisingly, they say are additional revelations from God to be used along with the Bible.

And so it goes. Create a theory that explains doctrines that are not supported by Scripture and that's all that's needed.

satan loves to instill cynicism in believers. Cynicism is one short step to agnosticism, and then to denial of all that is true. Please do not succumb to cynicism!

Do you believe that whatever a person believes to be true, IS divine truth? I do not.
Do you agree that, no, a person's claim of truth does not mean he has truth - I hope you do.
Yet I insist, TRUTH EXISTS! AND falsity exists. And God IS truth, and cannot lie.
I hope you agree that God has in fact revealed Himself - in truth - to mankind in His Son. And the Church He instituted, He also entrusted with this truth. And He has not deceived anyone, at any time. Men have sinned, and have lied, and have taught falsely throughout history.
But His Church remains true because He is present to her (I am with you until the close of the age.). Her doctrines are true, her sacraments are true, her moral teachings are true, and the prayer - the spiritual life - the spirituality - in the Church is true, the true path to holiness in Him.

I think the radical opposite of agnosticism is supernatural faith. Supernatural faith is that divine gift from God Himself, Personally, that is salvific. Paul wrote,
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God—
Eph 2:9 not because of works, lest any man should boast.

Seek truth! All who seek, will find, the Lord said. When the Lord Himself reveals truth, then you KNOW deeper than any mere natural reasoned conclusion or deduction, what truth is, and where it is to be found. That is supernatural faith.

 

[Albion]

Do you believe that whatever a person believes to be true, IS divine truth? I do not.

Nor do I. But that has nothing to do with what we were discussing.

Do you agree that, no, a person's claim of truth does not mean he has truth - I hope you do.

Right.

Yet I insist, TRUTH EXISTS! AND falsity exists. And God IS truth, and cannot lie.
I hope you agree that God has in fact revealed Himself - in truth - to mankind in His Son.

Right.

And the Church He instituted, He also entrusted with this truth.

But here I have to stop you. You are referring to one denomination, the one you prefer.

 

[fide]

Then how do you explain the fact that a verse from the Apocrypha, written before Christ, is the Catholic Church's #1 proof text for the reality of Purgatory AT THE TIME OF THE EVENTS described there?

"Proof texting" is a protestant idea, like "sola scriptura". The Church rests upon divine revelation, received in faith, guided by the Holy Spirit, not legalisms like "proof texts". And God is not restrained by time - He is above time - He created time.

 

[Albion]

"Proof texting" is a protestant idea, like "sola scriptura".

Call it something else, then. The fact remains that the Roman Catholic Church does indeed cite Bible passages, claiming that they prove that the RCC's teachings are correct.

 

[fide]

But here I have to stop you. You are referring to one denomination, the one you prefer.

There is One Name of the One God. That Name - and His One Truth - got divided, "denominated" by men and men remain the origins of "denominations." The One Church remains One; men will argue and debate and separate until the end of time. If you want truth, return to the origin, to the One.

 

[bbbbbbb]

There is One Name of the One God. That Name - and His One Truth - got divided, "denominated" by men and men remain the origins of "denominations." The One Church remains One; men will argue and debate and separate until the end of time. If you want truth, return to the origin, to the One.

It is a pity, therefore, that your particular denomination got "denominated" later than several others, thereby providing a solid historical basis for their legitimacy over yours.

 

[fide]

Call it something else, then. The fact remains that the Roman Catholic Church does indeed cite Bible passages, claiming that they prove that the RCC's teachings are correct.

No, that is not the way the Church thinks or teaches. That is the practice of protestant denominations maybe, but not the Church. There are many passages of Scripture, obviously, that refer to or reflect or demonstrate Church teachings - but the teachings came first, and afterward, the written records of "Scripture". The Apostles began teaching and making disciples - Christians - long before the long trail of Letters and what we now call "Gospels" were written and then collected and recognized as inspired testimonies of the Faith.

If you ever come to trust and believe Catholic teachings, you will be able to find many - many - passages that refer to purgatory. But when you begin with a rejection of Catholic teachings, and look to these passages one at a time, you can easily reject them, one at a time, because no one of them "proves" purgatory. Many illustrate it, none were meant to "prove" it.

If Scripture were written to "prove" articles of faith, then faith would be the product of human reasoning and deductions - it would be a "human work" and not a gift of God. Paul declares that faith is absolutely NOT a human work, but rather a divine GIFT!!!

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God—
Eph 2:9 not because of works, lest any man should boast.
​

Faith - right believing - must come first - THEN and only THEN does Scripture become light, and make sense. Supernatural sense!

 

[Albion]

No, that is not the way the Church thinks or teaches.

Well, it is. Anyone can prove it by checking out any church publication or website or the home page of any parish, and on and on and on. The idea that the Roman Catholic Church doesn't cite Bible verses when showing why it believes what it does is nonsense. If you are trying to say something ELSE, please get to it.

 

[fide]

It is a pity, therefore, that your particular denomination got "denominated" later than several others, thereby providing a solid historical basis for their legitimacy over yours.

You must have your history book upside-down!

 

[bbbbbbb]

Well, it is. Anyone can prove it by checking out any church publication or website or the home page of any parish, and on and on and on.

Not to mention the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

 

[bbbbbbb]

You must have your history book upside-down!

You can tell that to your friends in the various EO and OO branches of Christianity. After all, it was the church of Rome which abandoned the EO over the issue of the Filoque at the Great Schism.

 

[fide]

Well, it is. Anyone can prove it by checking out any church publication or website or the home page of any parish, and on and on and on. The idea that the Roman Catholic Church doesn't cite Bible verses when showing why it believes what it does is nonsense. If you are trying to say something ELSE, please get to it.

I've been a Catholic a long time, in many parishes and dioceses, and that's not my experience.

 

[Albion]

I've been a Catholic a long time, in many parishes and dioceses, and that's not my experience.

Well, you may have paid no attention to all the evidence, but it's all around you and easily accessed. I have a number of Catholic publications here, and I could pick almost any page at random and find Bible verses being used to prove some church view to be correct. And going online or looking at a copy of the Catechism, as bbbbbbb suggested, should be no problem for you.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Well, you may have paid no attention to all the evidence, but it's all around you and easily accessed.

It assuredly is. Growing up in a predominantly Catholic city I was regularly engaged with various Catholic claims of questionable doctrines which were supported by their proponents with equally questionable Biblical texts.

 

[fide]

Well, you may have paid no attention to all the evidence, but it's all around you and easily accessed. I have a number of Catholic publications here, and I could pick almost any page at random and find Bible verses being used to prove some church view to be correct. And going online or looking at a copy of the Catechism, as bbbbbbb suggested, should be no problem for you.

Maybe you are misinterpreting the use of Scripture that you are seeing, interpreting in the way you would use it, presuming they are doing the same thing. I suspect they are actually using the Scripture to demonstrate that Church teaching is consistent with Scripture - as it always is. Catholic apologists "debating" with sola-scriptura protestants do that, frequently, because many protestants insist that the Church contradicts Holy Scripture (which it never does). Do you follow what I am saying?

p.s. post #434 seems to be doing just what I said - Catholics readily show Scripture is consistent with Church teaching - that Scripture "supports" Church teaching. This is not "proving" anything, as post #434 demonstrates, as he says that the Catholic attempt fails in his eyes to "prove" anything. (It is not meant to!)

 

[Albion]

I suspect they are actually using the Scripture to demonstrate that Church teaching is consistent with Scripture - as it always is.

But not to show the inquirer or other interested party that the Church's belief is correct?

 

[concretecamper]

So this makes it look like the Bible IS authoritative, and you are simply advancing an explanation for how it came to be. Almost all Christians teach approximately this same thing.

of course the Bible is Authoritative. It is becasue the Church to which Christ promised the Holy Spirit said it is.

Now we come to something else. But all that means is that this particular denomination stipulates that its "fullness" idea is what guarantees those extra-Biblical teachings.

Christ's Words are extra biblical?

Other denominations have similar explanations of their own.

not one.

For example, some that are of recent origin insist that the Apostolic church apostasized early on, but God intended to restore it in time. So that's them. That's why their denomination is correct--according to their theory.

then these people dont believe that Jesus kept Hios promise.

Some others have their own sacred writings which, not surprisingly, they say are additional revelations from God to be used along with the Bible.

irrelevant to the topic.

And so it goes. Create a theory that explains doctrines that are not supported by Scripture and that's all that's needed.

none, including you have shown that the Bible claims to contains all truths of the Christian faith. I suspect you wont be able to show us all this time either.

 

[concretecamper]

It assuredly is. Growing up in a predominantly Catholic city I was regularly engaged with various Catholic claims of questionable doctrines which were supported by their proponents with equally questionable Biblical texts.

we've all heard of your Catholic freinds that seems to give you misguided information about what the Church teaches. Now we are up to an entire city?

 

[bbbbbbb]

we've all heard of your Catholic freinds that seems to give you misguided information about what the Church teaches. Now we are up to an entire city?

Yep, indeed, with an archbishop, cathedral, eleven large parishes each with their own parochial schools and convents, four motherhouses, three seminaries, and a monastery. Now you will inform me that everything these folks professed to believe was utter rubbish.

 

[fide]

But not to show the inquirer or other interested party that the Church's belief is correct?

Well, the intention of that particular person I cannot know. But a single data point that is consistent with a hypothesis - a supposition or theory or prediction - that is being challenged or tested, cannot determine the general truth of the hypothesis if the single data point is consistent with the hypothesis. On the other hand, if the data point is inconsistent with the hypothesis, then clearly the hypothesis has failed in this one case and is not always true.

The general truth of Catholic doctrine is not proven by one or a hundred examples in Scripture (but it could be disproved by one contradiction in Scripture rightly understood, if you could find one). The truth of Scripture is established by God, the Primary Author of Scripture, and that truth is receive by Catholics not because it is "proven" by very smart Catholic exegetes, but as it is received in holy faith which is a gift of the Holy Spirit of God.