Purgatory

[Valletta]

However, FredVB (whose post you were replying to) was referring to punishment in Purgatory for unforgiven sins and also for ones already forgiven. He wasn't talking about God's forgiveness, which isn't what Purgatory supposedly exists in order to accomplish anyway.


...which means that when the sinner repents and throws himself upon God's mercy as Christ taught, he still faces punishment for committing the sins that were forgiven. Really?

2 Samuel 12:13-14: "David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, the child that is born to you shall die."

 

[PaulCyp1]

Scripture supporting Purgatory? Sure, no problem. Jesus Christ founded one Church , said it was to remain one, and promised that one Church "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth", and "Whatsoever you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven", and "He who hears you hears Me". That one Church has defined the truth of Purgatory, therefore God Himself has defined it - if you believe what Jesus taught. His Church is the only source of truth Jesus provided for us. He never said anything about finding truth in the Bible, which is understandable since the Bible didn't even exist until three and a half centuries after His death and Resurrection. The Bible is not intended to be a source of truth, but rather a recording for easy reference, of some of the truths Jesus revealed to His Church. His Church taught all of these truths before the Bible existed, and would still be teaching them today, even if it had never decided to gather some of its early writings into a book for easy reference. His Church without the Bible still provides the fullness of His truth. The Bible without His Church results in fragmentation into thousands of conflicting manmade denominations, teaching thousands of contradictory beliefs.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Scripture supporting Purgatory? Sure, no problem. Jesus Christ founded one Church , said it was to remain one, and promised that one Church "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth", and "Whatsoever you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven", and "He who hears you hears Me". That one Church has defined the truth of Purgatory, therefore God Himself has defined it - if you believe what Jesus taught. His Church is the only source of truth Jesus provided for us. He never said anything about finding truth in the Bible, which is understandable since the Bible didn't even exist until three and a half centuries after His death and Resurrection. The Bible is not intended to be a source of truth, but rather a recording for easy reference, of some of the truths Jesus revealed to His Church. His Church taught all of these truths before the Bible existed, and would still be teaching them today, even if it had never decided to gather some of its early writings into a book for easy reference. His Church without the Bible still provides the fullness of His truth. The Bible without His Church results in fragmentation into thousands of conflicting manmade denominations, teaching thousands of contradictory beliefs.

Yup. And this is the same denomination that confidently assured its members that the world was, indeed, flat, and had Galileo placed under house arrest for attempting to assert the heretical notion that the earth is round and revolved around the sun.

 

[Albion]

Scripture supporting Purgatory? Sure, no problem. Jesus Christ founded one Church , said it was to remain one, and promised that one Church "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth", and "Whatsoever you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven", and "He who hears you hears Me". That one Church has defined the truth of Purgatory, therefore God Himself has defined it....

Thanks for your offering your perspective. I was going to ask what your view is when the Church teaches one thing for a few centuries and then teaches the opposite for a few, but I won't.

 

[Valletta]

Yup. And this is the same denomination that confidently assured its members that the world was, indeed, flat, and had Galileo placed under house arrest for attempting to assert the heretical notion that the earth is round and revolved around the sun.

Absolutely false. If you don't see something you question in the Catechism please take the time to ask a Catholic before spreading such negative rumors.

 

[prodromos]

Absolutely false.

Ah, no.
Galileo affair - Wikipedia

 

[Valletta]

Ah, no.
Galileo affair - Wikipedia

As I've said so many times before, Wikipedia is not a reliable source of information for anything controversial. Anyone can post at any given time.

 

[prodromos]

As I've said so many times before, Wikipedia is not a reliable source of information for anything controversial. Anyone can post at any given time.

The affair is well documented and the resources are listed in the references section of the article, but by all means stick your head in the sand and look like an idiot. It makes you look so much more credible when you are defending Catholicism.

 

[Valletta]

The affair is well documented and the resources are listed in the references section of the article, but by all means stick your head in the sand and look like an idiot. It makes you look so much more credible when you are defending Catholicism.

Please don't call names. It was actually Copernicus, not Galileo, who proposed that the earth resolved around the sun. He dedicated his theory to the pope, and pope accepted it as a theory. Do you think they put Copernicus under house arrest?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Please don't call names. It was actually Copernicus, not Galileo, who proposed that the earth resolved around the sun. He dedicated his theory to the pope, and pope accepted it as a theory. Do you think they put Copernicus under house arrest?

Fortunately, Copernicus did not live in Italy. He lived in Poland. Nevertheless he was condemned as a heretic by the "unchanging" Church. Had he been living in Italy, he probably would have been put under house arrest - or worse.

 

[prodromos]

Please don't call names. It was actually Copernicus, not Galileo, who proposed that the earth resolved around the sun.

Which post that you are responding to said otherwise?

He dedicated his theory to the pope, and pope accepted it as a theory.

It didn't stop the Catholic Church from declaring his theory as formally heretical when Galileo was promoting it.

Do you think they put Copernicus under house arrest?

They certainly did put Galileo under house arrest. So please explain again how bbbbbb's post was "Absolutely false"?

 

[prodromos]

Fortunately, Copernicus did not live in Italy. He lived in Poland. Nevertheless he was condemned as a heretic by the "unchanging" Church. Had he been living in Italy, he probably would have been put under house arrest - or worse.

Copernicus had strong connections in the Catholic Church, and there was very little controversy about his work until Galileo started promoting it. Copernicus was not ever declared a heretic whereas Galileo was convicted of "Grave suspicion of heresy" and jailed, before later being placed under house arrest.

 

[Albion]

Please don't call names. It was actually Copernicus, not Galileo, who proposed that the earth resolved around the sun. He dedicated his theory to the pope, and pope accepted it as a theory. Do you think they put Copernicus under house arrest?

That doesn't exactly exonerate the Church concerning what it did to Galileo, though, does it?

 

[Valletta]

That doesn't exactly exonerate the Church concerning what it did to Galileo, though, does it? As to back then, it appears he received a fair trial, they housed him in a nice apartment and even provided a valet. He was convicted of "suspected heresy" rather than heresy. But I think by modern standards the Church overreached by silencing him and having him spend his last days in a country house.

 

[prodromos]

As to back then, it appears he received a fair trial, they housed him in a nice apartment and even provided a valet. He was convicted of "suspected heresy" rather than heresy. But I think by modern standards the Church overreached by silencing him and having him spend his last days in a country house.

If it was a fair trial, why has the Vatican since admitted they were wrong?
And when can I expect an explanation of what was false about bbbbbb's post?

 

[bbbbbbb]

If it was a fair trial, why has the Vatican since admitted they were wrong?
And when can I expect an explanation of what was false about bbbbbb's post?

Interestingly, we are both left waiting. I rather think there will be no response.

 

[fide]

So are you saying that luke 12:59 is some kind of parable?



And you even gave it own name? Imaginative place, what we call purgatory. I dont need such doctrine, i dont see it giving me any benefit even if it was true. And because its not specifically mentioned in bible i can confidently ignore it with good conscience. What does it benefit you to have such doctrine with such lackluster evidence. Can live little more loose, because purgatory will cleanse me of my idol worship?

Note that when Jesus was nearing His departure from the Apostles and other disciples, Jesus did not promise to send them a Bible with a New Testament all their own. He did promise to send them the Holy Spirit, who would teach them and lead them into all the Truth.

Jesus did provide the Church with a New Testament, by way of the promised Holy Spirit.
And Jesus did provide the Church with right understanding of the New Testament, by way of the promised Holy Spirit.
And through these two means, the Church was led, by the promised Holy Spirit, into more and more of God's Holy Truth, as promised.

To name two examples of this fullness of divine Truth received by the Church, but rejected by many non-Catholic Christians, are 1) devotion to the virgin mother Mary, and 2) the reality of what is called "purgatory." Of course there are many other examples also. But my point is, the Church has been led - as promised, "into all the Truth" (not just what is obvious to individuals reading Scripture on their own). And the Church continues to listen, and hear, and learn, and obey from the glorious promised Holy Spirit.

 

[Albion]

Note that when Jesus was nearing His departure from the Apostles and other disciples, Jesus did not promise to send them a Bible with a New Testament all their own. He did promise to send them the Holy Spirit, who would teach them and lead them into all the Truth.

Jesus did provide the Church with a New Testament, by way of the promised Holy Spirit.

So this makes it look like the Bible IS authoritative, and you are simply advancing an explanation for how it came to be. Almost all Christians teach approximately this same thing.

To name two examples of this fullness of divine Truth received by the Church, but rejected by many non-Catholic Christians, are 1) devotion to the virgin mother Mary, and 2) the reality of what is called "purgatory."

Now we come to something else. But all that means is that this particular denomination stipulates that its "fullness" idea is what guarantees those extra-Biblical teachings.

Other denominations have similar explanations of their own.

For example, some that are of recent origin insist that the Apostolic church apostasized early on, but God intended to restore it in time. So that's them. That's why their denomination is correct--according to their theory.

Some others have their own sacred writings which, not surprisingly, they say are additional revelations from God to be used along with the Bible.

And so it goes. Create a theory that explains doctrines that are not supported by Scripture and that's all that's needed.

 

[fide]

"It is appointed to man once to die and then the judgement." Hebrews 9:27

If we have to go to a place to pay for our own sins that weren't covered on this earth or to "cleanse" ourselves in preparation for heaven....

....then that means that Jesus Christ's atonement does NOT cover our sins in full and his shed blood is not cleansing.

And that is a lie

Dear plain Jayne, I'm sorry but you misunderstand some very important truths. First, purgatory did not exist and could not exist before the shed blood of Jesus on the Cross. It is only through His perfect once-for-all sacrifice that purgatory has any meaning or effect on human souls. We do not "pay for our own sins" in purgatory - rather, our souls are made clean, made pure in purgatory through the work of God in us to empty us, to purge us, of all remaining clinging to sins and impurities and disordered self-love which we died still loving. In analogy, the fires of purgatory burn away the impurity of impure desires, and refine our souls as if gold having imperfections, which need to be burned away to leave only pure, pure gold worthy of God.

A Christian who has love for God does not "love sin" intentionally, yet many - most - still sin! How can this be? He does love sin - some sins in particular - even though he may hate the fact that he does. He does not want to want to sin, yet he sins! How can this be? This is the fact, because even though the blood of Jesus has the power to cleanse him of all sin, he himself personally has not rejected and become free of all sin. He still sins. This condition is NOT acceptable to enter the presence of the all-holy God. NOTHING unclean can enter the presence of God. (Rev 21:27)

The elect will enter the presence of God, by the Blood - the love - of Christ, but many may not do so immediately after death, but rather only after they have been finally and completely freed from all impurity. God gives us time on earth to fully offer ourselves to Him, but many do not fully do so. Thus purgatory, to finish passively (here, God is the active agent) what should have been done actively with our own wills while on earth.

That is the Truth.

 

[Albion]

Dear plain Jayne, I'm sorry but you misunderstand some very important truths. First, purgatory did not exist and could not exist before the shed blood of Jesus on the Cross.

Then how do you explain the fact that a verse from the Apocrypha, written before Christ, is the Catholic Church's #1 proof text for the reality of Purgatory AT THE TIME OF THE EVENTS described there?