Purgatory!

[Erose]

When I meet God I will have an entirely new body and there will be left no sinful nature according to 1Cor 15 - but my spirit - my soul - my character will be totally unchanged.

If you have no sinful nature then your spirit and soul will be changed.

Hum, didn't know Adventist were gnostic.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Hum, didn't know Adventist were gnostic.

I think that they teach that man is body & breath rather than body & soul. It seems that their teaching rejects any continuing existence of the human soul in consciousness after bodily death.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan

IF a Christian decides to start worshiping a pagan idol - in addition to attending church - is that "a mortal sin"??
​

Yes.

Then 2 Macc 12 cannot be a discussion about Purgatory.

Why not? Two things here:

1) It doesn't mention the fallen Jews worshipping the idols, but rather they took them.
2) This passage isn't about what those who took the idols did, but rather what those men did for the shouls of those who had fallen.

1. Those who had fallen were wearing the idols around their necks - as devotees to those pagan gods.

2. the prayers for them were in direct response to finding that these Jews had died as idol worshipers.

3. The animal sacrifices made are then stated to have been of no benefit at all to those who had fallen - apart from the resurrection of the dead.

All of which excludes the Purgatory argument since you don't get purgatory as the reward for mixing pagan idol worship in with the worship of the true God.

And since Purgatory indulgences are supposedly a benefit BEFORE the resurrection of the dead.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Albion]

Or, to put it another way, the mere fact that some Jews prayed for the dead does not mean that it's a practice that scripture recommends. All that the passage says to us is that these certain Jews did this...and nothing about the rightness or wrongness of their action.

Originally Posted by BobRyan

IF a Christian decides to start worshiping a pagan idol - in addition to attending church - is that "a mortal sin"??
​

Then 2 Macc 12 cannot be a discussion about Purgatory.





1. Those who had fallen were wearing the idols around their necks - as devotees to those pagan gods.

2. the prayers for them were in direct response to finding that these Jews had died as idol worshipers.

3. The animal sacrifices made are then stated to have been of no benefit at all to those who had fallen - apart from the resurrection of the dead.

All of which excludes the Purgatory argument since you don't get purgatory as the reward for mixing pagan idol worship in with the worship of the true God.

And since Purgatory indulgences are supposedly a benefit BEFORE the resurrection of the dead.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[catholichomeschooler]

When I meet God I will have an entirely new body and there will be left no sinful nature according to 1Cor 15 - but my spirit - my soul - my character will be totally unchanged.

That's what happens during purgatory.

 

[Erose]

I think that they teach that man is body & breath rather than body & soul. It seems that their teaching rejects any continuing existence of the human soul in consciousness after bodily death.

Oh, then they are materialists then.

 

[Erose]

Then 2 Macc 12 cannot be a discussion about Purgatory.

2 Mac discusses praying and sacrificing for the dead and the practice of it among the Jews. If one prays and offers sacrifices for the dead then there must be an underlying belief that those prayers and sacrifices can in some way help those who have died.

1. Those who had fallen were wearing the idols around their necks - as devotees to those pagan gods.

Doesn't necessarily apply. It speaks that these medallions were taken from Jamnia. So most probably they were part of the spoils. If anything these men were guilty of the sin of greed, and not idolatry.

2. the prayers for them were in direct response to finding that these Jews had died as idol worshipers.

The prayers and sacrifices were in direct response of discovering that they died as sinners. If Judas believed that these men were idolaters, he would not have did what he did.

3. The animal sacrifices made are then stated to have been of no benefit at all to those who had fallen - apart from the resurrection of the dead.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.

All of which excludes the Purgatory argument since you don't get purgatory as the reward for mixing pagan idol worship in with the worship of the true God.

True, but that isn't what happened here in 2 Mac.

And since Purgatory indulgences are supposedly a benefit BEFORE the resurrection of the dead.

Before the general resurrection, yes.

 

[Erose]

Or, to put it another way, the mere fact that some Jews prayed for the dead does not mean that it's a practice that scripture recommends. All that the passage says to us is that these certain Jews did this...and nothing about the rightness or wrongness of their action.

Hum, since Scripture recommends it, I will keep on doing it.

 

[Albion]

2 Mac discusses praying and sacrificing for the dead and the practice of it among the Jews. If one prays and offers sacrifices for the dead then there must be an underlying belief that those prayers and sacrifices can in some way help those who have died.

Wrong. There may be an underlying belief that there might be a way for God to show his mercy to those persons. In no way does that mean Purgatory, Treasuries of Merit, Indulgences, etc. and all the rest that defines Purgatory.

In fact, we have the example of the Eastern Orthodox churches in this regard. They have never accepted the Latin "Purgatory" but they do pray for the dead in somewhat the same way as Anglicans do, which is to say to simply pray without preconceived notions about how God might respond. There's nothing wrong with asking God for most anything, but thinking that there is some particular mechanism that would be the vehicle for that mercy is wrong and unwarranted.

 

[Erose]

Wrong. There may be an underlying belief that there might be a way for God to show his mercy to those persons. In no way does that mean Purgatory, Treasuries of Merit, Indulgences, etc. and all the rest that defines Purgatory.

That isn't what I claimed. At least you agreed with me that there is a purpose, and that purpose is God showing His mercy. Looks like we are making progress.

In fact, we have the example of the Eastern Orthodox churches in this regard. They have never accepted the Latin "Purgatory" but they do pray for the dead in somewhat the same way as Anglicans do, which is to say to simply pray without preconceived notions about how God might respond. There's nothing wrong with asking God for most anything, but thinking that there is some particular mechanism that would be the vehicle for that mercy is wrong and unwarranted.

So you pray in ignorance. Got it... Do you Albion pray for the dead?

 

[Albion]

That isn't what I claimed.

Oh. Then that's good, huh?

At least you agreed with me that there is a purpose, and that purpose is God showing His mercy. Looks like we are making progress.

I hope we agree. My point was that there's a precedent for asking God to be merciful, that's all. Many Christians would say that it's flatout wrong because the fate of each of us is sealed the minute we die, but I can't really fault anyone who prays for mercy in some unspecific way, even if it's useless.

Do you Albion pray for the dead?

to the extent that there is a brief line in the liturgy to that effect, yes. But BTW, it only refers to the souls of the saved. We can't be sure who they are, but we aren't praying for God to reassess his judgments, save everyone regardless, or shorten some soul's suffering in a Purgatory, etc.

 

[stevenfrancis]

There is a place for those who have believed in Jesus, but did not live his Word, other then Hell. Such people will not go to Hell, because Jesus said those people would be saved.

Paul said a sinner would never enter the kingdom of God.

(1 Corinthians 6:9-19) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.”

Jesus told us that one had to live the will of the Father to get into Heaven. Sinning is not living the Father’s will.

(Matthew 7:21-23) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven___________”


What can one be saved from, but Hell? People who do not live God’s Word will not enter the kingdom of Heaven, so there has to be another place.

I believe this other place is where those who did not live God’s Word will be forever.

I also believe that those who will not enter Heaven, nor go to Hell will be punished justly for their sins forever.

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. --------“

Notice Hebrews does not say Hell.

Your belief and understanding seems to indicate a permanent "place", neither heaven not hell. This is not the Church's understanding or teaching of purgation which would be a temporary state for the elect so that they may be made clean. The duration and nature are not known, but only postulated.

This is interesting. What you have described here is pretty close to my understanding of purgatory when I was what I would call a "spiritual seeker". It is likely a prevalent notion among those who would not identify as Catholic or Protestant. Not firmly deposited in any particular religion. As I kept gravitating closer to Rome, and my cathechesis began in earnest, I developed an understanding in union with the Church.

Ultimately, I'm discovering, no matter what the topic is on these forums, it really just ends up boiling down to one thing. Whether or not a Christian acknowledges and accepts that the Catholic Church is one Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church begun by Jesus Christ. If one accepts this truly, then they are in "communion" with the invested teaching authority of her Bishops as the successors of the Apostles, and if not, then they attach themselves to the notions of some denomination of the Church, or a non-denominational group of some sort. I've had some correspondence with some Christians who belong to no group at all. They just sit alone at home and read the bible with no guidance whatsoever, and come to forums, (usually holypal.com), and present all new Christian faith traditions based on their own interpretations.

I came to believe that Jesus didn't desire a Church divided into thousands of fragments. That He desired us to be universal, whole and one. To be presented to the Father as one when He returns. After some study and prayer, this left the Catholic Church, and the Eastern Orthodox. The Orthodox stopped holding eccumenical councils, but attend those of the Catholic Church. I think about the see of St. Peter, and how Peter was thought of among the Apostles, and so forth. Oh I don't want to get into my whole conversion story here. The point is, if one finds themselves in the Catholic Church, there is the blessing dogmas, and obedience. A heavy burden is lifted.

The fact of purgatory has come to be dogmatically defined. As a Catholic, I don't have to sweat it. The heavy lifting has already been done. I only need to be obedient to the teaching. To exercise humility.

I come to forums to learn mostly how to articulate from others who are Catholic. And also to share the gospel as much as I am granted ability to do so by our Lord.

Thank you for sharing your understanding of purgatory, and may God bless you on your continued journey.

 

[Erose]

Oh. Then that's good, huh?

Considering you claimed my position was wrong, and then went off on a tangent that didn't explain what it was wrong. So yeah.

I hope we agree. My point was that there's a precedent for asking God to be merciful, that's all. Many Christians would say that it's flatout wrong because the fate of each of us is sealed the minute we die, but I can't really fault anyone who prays for mercy in some unspecific way, even if it's useless.

Well considering that I agree with them that our fate is sealed when we die. That position doesn't effect the position of purgation after death. That is a different discussion all together.

to the extent that there is a brief line in the liturgy to that effect, yes. But BTW, it only refers to the souls of the saved. We can't be sure who they are, but we aren't praying for God to reassess his judgments, save everyone regardless, or shorten some soul's suffering in a Purgatory, etc.

We only pray for those who are saved as well.

 

[stevenfrancis]

A question for protestants of all types. Does your individual church, faith tradition, or do you personally ever pray for those who have died? If so, what is it that your are praying for?

If not, then never mind. I'm just curious. It seems when I was worshiping with the Lutherans for a while, and the Baptists for a while, that whether or not it was a "teaching", that we prayed for someone when they died. If I'm incorrect in this, I'm sorry. It's been a long time. I'm curious about the answer to this. It is related to the OP, so I hope I'm in bounds on this.

God bless,

 

[Albion]

I came to believe that Jesus didn't desire a Church divided into thousands of fragments. That He desired us to be universal, whole and one. To be presented to the Father as one when He returns. After some study and prayer, this left the Catholic Church, and the Eastern Orthodox.

Neither of which is whole or the church of all Christians. All you get by choosing one of those groups is 1) making the largest church, or one of them, a de facto "universal" church or 2) you accept their claims to be the "one, true, and only real church," i.e the same claim that's also made by any cult.

The fact of purgatory has come to be dogmatically defined. As a Catholic, I don't have to sweat it. The heavy lifting has already been done. I only need to be obedient to the teaching.

That seems to be it, but is surrendering your judgment to some third party actually what God wants for us? Is it what the New Testament directs? Or is it rather the case, again and again, that the Gospel and the NT letters speak of us making wise and informed decisions?

 

[stevenfrancis]

Neither of which is whole or the church of all Christians. All you get by choosing one of those groups is 1) making the largest church, or one of them, a de facto "universal" church or 2) you accept their claims to be the "one, true, and only real church," i.e the same claim that's also made by any cult.


That seems to be it, but is surrendering your judgment to some third party actually what God wants for us? Is it what the New Testament directs? Or is it rather the case, again and again, that the Gospel and the NT letters speak of us making wise and informed decisions?

See, this is the thing Albion. I don't see it as surrendering my judgement to a 3rd party. But rather I think it is a living Church. That it is the Church of the Apostles, who are the chosen of Christ. That their teaching IS the teaching of Jesus. That the Holy Spirit protects the Church from teaching error. I know you don't agree with that, so no real resolution can be had between us on this matter. But I just wanted to distinguish Catholic submission to the Church from submission to a "third party". Thank your for the opportunity to make this distinction, and may God bless and keep you always.

 

[South Bound]

A question for protestants of all types. Does your individual church, faith tradition, or do you personally ever pray for those who have died? If so, what is it that your are praying for?

If not, then never mind. I'm just curious. It seems when I was worshiping with the Lutherans for a while, and the Baptists for a while, that whether or not it was a "teaching", that we prayed for someone when they died. If I'm incorrect in this, I'm sorry. It's been a long time. I'm curious about the answer to this. It is related to the OP, so I hope I'm in bounds on this.

Nope. Never prayer for or to the dead. Never heard of a Baptist who did.

 

[stevenfrancis]

Nope. Never prayer for or to the dead. Never heard of a Baptist who did.

Thank you. If you don't mind me asking, what types of prayers would be offered at a funeral or committal service. Any? You can just link me to a website, if you'd like. This is a legitimate curiosity of mine.

God bless,

 

[Erose]

Steven here is the thing. Most Protestants don't believe obedience is a virtue, but a vice; and they don't believe that there is such a thing as an absolute truth, everything is relative, because the only thing that matters is one's own personal interpretation of Scripture. This is why this whole concept of a Catholic Church with the full deposit of faith is such a strange concept for them.

 

[Erose]

And it appears that Luther was not going for this either - so I am curious as to how the Catholic church thinks the Protestant reformation "is over".

There never was a 'Protestant' reformation to start with, that is one of the biggest oxy-morons in history. It is better classified as a revolt, and yes that revolt is over. Protestant churches today don't exist for the sole purpose of revolting against the Church. They have moved on from that, which you should as well.