Purgatory!

[nephilimiyr]

Thank you. If you don't mind me asking, what types of prayers would be offered at a funeral or committal service. Any? You can just link me to a website, if you'd like. This is a legitimate curiosity of mine.

God bless,

I also have never been in a Protestant church that offered prayers for those who have already died. The types of prayers that are offered are made for the living. Mainly for those who are now sufferering the loss of a loved one.

 

[South Bound]

I used to work with a guy who was an adventist and who told me alittle of what they believe and you are partly right. From what I understood, if one dies rejecting Jesus Christ, their soul or consciousness dies or ceases to exist. If one dies accepting Jesus Christ then their soul or consciousness has eternal life with him and does not cease to exist. And it's not just about accepting Christ but they are very legalistic and believe that one has to follow the law to the tee.

That's why I'm confused by the fact that he says he's SDA, but then, in his sig, promotes some really good, orthodox, Reformed theologians.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Steven here is the thing. Most Protestants don't believe obedience is a virtue, but a vice; and they don't believe that there is such a thing as an absolute truth, everything is relative, because the only thing that matters is one's own personal interpretation of Scripture. This is why this whole concept of a Catholic Church with the full deposit of faith is such a strange concept for them.

Wow! Sorry but everything Erose wrote in the post above is a personal opinion of his that happends to be totally wrong.

 

[South Bound]

Wow! Sorry but everything Erose wrote in the post above is a personal opinion of his that happends to be totally wrong.

Not only wrong, but just flat out dishonest.

I do like the irony in the fact that he accuses us of "personal interpretation of scripture" and not believing in "absolute truth", when no two Catholics in either this thread or the thread about the mass being a sacrifice have given the same answer about their beliefs.

One says they expiate their sin in Purgatory. Another says they don't. One says the mass is a sacrifice. Another says it isn't.

But, of course, he claims we're the ones who don't believe in an objective standard of truth.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I used to work with a guy who was an adventist and who told me alittle of what they believe and you are partly right. From what I understood, if one dies rejecting Jesus Christ, their soul or consciousness dies or ceases to exist. If one dies accepting Jesus Christ then their soul or consciousness has eternal life with him and does not cease to exist. And it's not just about accepting Christ but they are very legalistic and believe that one has to follow the law to the tee.

The expression that I used - body & breath - was the short pithy explanation of human nature given to me by a Seventh Day Adventist pastor at their headquarters in my city. He was very helpful as far as learning some of the doctrines of that religion are concerned. SDAs also appear to teach soul-sleep and another related doctrine called "conditional immortality". These two doctrines imply that the bodily death of both sinner and saint marks a complete loss of conscious existence until the time of the resurrection.

 

[nephilimiyr]

That's why I'm confused by the fact that he says he's SDA, but then, in his sig, promotes some really good, orthodox, Reformed theologians.

Well, get this one. The guy I was talking about that I used to work with, he grew up in the Addventist church but was no longer a member but because he still believed what they taught he was totally bought and sold on the idea of soul death. The way he saw it, he could sin all he wanted and not have to pay the price as when his body dies, so does his soul. The way he saw it, it was a win win situation. He got to do all the sins he loved to do, you know, party, party, party; sleep around, sleep around, and sleep around, and never have to worry about judgment. And I'm telling you, he totally believed this. I tried to speak to him about sound doctrine and it didn't matter.

It is sad but what would happen was that I would give him a verse and talk about it with him. He would then in turn talk it over to his mother and talk to her about it, and the next day he would tell me what she said and how wrong I was. I don't care what anybody says, most people look towards an outside party to tell them what is true. This person in the thread saying they don't look to a third party, I view that as mostly rubbish, maybe not for him or her. Whether it's your church, your pastor or Bishop, your mother, brother, sister, or friend, most people would rather take someone elses word for it.

 

[MoreCoffee]

When I meet God I will have an entirely new body and there will be left no sinful nature according to 1Cor 15 - but my spirit - my soul - my character will be totally unchanged.

If you have no sinful nature then your spirit and soul will be changed.

If you're talking about after bodily death, with my belief only your soul or conscious mind is changed. Otherwise, I see soul and spirit as two different things. The born again spirit is not changed and cannot be changed. The born again spirit was created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness, Eph. 4:24. This born again spirit was created in us when we first became believers in Christ.

I was talking about BobRyan's statement. He asserts that his spirit/soul/character will be totally unchanged were he to die as he read my post and appeared before God. Presumably his statement was intended to mean that nothing about him (except his body) would be changed when he faces God on judgement day. I am not sure what he intends that to mean.

The reason I asked the question was to tease out the details of his beliefs because Christians have traditionally taught that upon death the sinner/saint faces God who either rewards them with life in his presence or with condemnation and exclusion from his presence and since God will not look upon evil (Habakkuk 1:13) it follows that those who dwell in God's presence are perfect and completely pure. I am not sure if BobRyan thinks he is perfect and completely pure now but if he does not then there would need to be some change in character before he could dwell in God's presence.

 

[nephilimiyr]

The expression that I used - body & breath - was the short pithy explanation of human nature given to me by a Seventh Day Adventist pastor at their headquarters in my city. He was very helpful as far as learning some of the doctrines of that religion are concerned. SDAs also appear to teach soul-sleep and another related doctrine called "conditional immortality". These two doctrines imply that the bodily death of both sinner and saint marks a complete loss of conscious existence until the time of the resurrection.

Yah know, you're probably more right than the guy I discussed these things with as it's hard to believe what he was saying. The thing was, he was totally sold out, he believed every word he was saying to me. And like I said in my last post in reply to South Bound, his mother seemed to trump me everytime.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Well, get this one. The guy I was talking about that I used to work with, he grew up in the Adventist church but was no longer a member but because he still believed what they taught he was totally bought and sold on the idea of soul death. The way he saw it, he could sin all he wanted and not have to pay the price as when his body dies, so does his soul. The way he saw it, it was a win win situation. He got to do all the sins he loved to do, you know, party, party, party; sleep around, sleep around, and sleep around, and never have to worry about judgment. And I'm telling you, he totally believed this. I tried to speak to him about sound doctrine and it didn't matter.

It is sad but what would happen was that I would give him a verse and talk about it with him. He would then in turn talk it over to his mother and talk to her about it, and the next day he would tell me what she said and how wrong I was. I don't care what anybody says, most people look towards an outside party to tell them what is true. This person in the thread saying they don't look to a third party, I view that as mostly rubbish, maybe not for him or her. Whether it's your church, your pastor or Bishop, your mother, brother, sister, or friend, most people would rather take someone else's word for it.

There is a hellish cast to some SDA doctrine and soul sleep is certainly a great comfort to those who reject the gospel in favour of living a life of pleasure and riot in this world.

You're right about people either relying on others or at least taking advice from others about their religious beliefs. Even the bible is a source of external advice about religion.

 

[nephilimiyr]

I was talking about BobRyan's statement. He asserts that his spirit/soul/character will be totally unchanged were he to die as he read my post and appeared before God. Presumably his statement was intended to mean that nothing about him (except his body) would be changed when he faces God on judgement day. I am not sure what he intends that to mean.

The reason I asked the question was to tease out the details of his beliefs because Christians have traditionally taught that upon death the sinner/saint faces God who either rewards them with life in his presence or with condemnation and exclusion from his presence and since God will not look upon evil (Habakkuk 1:13) it follows that those who dwell in God's presence are perfect and completely pure. I am not sure if BobRyan thinks he is perfect and completely pure now but if he does not then there would need to be some change in character before he could dwell in God's presence.

What he says is confussing. I agree with him about us not carrying our sin nature with us when we die. No longer having that propensity to sin haunting our soul will be a very welcome change if you ask me.

Now what I've been saying is that God created in us a born again spirit that God can and does recognise as being comepletely pure, perfect, righteous, and holy. When we die, God sees both the soul and spirit, the soul He sees maybe battered and torn because of the effects of sin, but He doesn't see sin in the soul, why, because the sin nature isn't there. He sees the wounds, yes, but not the sin. The sin nature is the reason why we sin, it's the reason why we have all the wounds in our soul. When that goes away, so does the character of sin in the soul.

 

[Nanopants]

SDAs also appear to teach soul-sleep and another related doctrine called "conditional immortality". These two doctrines imply that the bodily death of both sinner and saint marks a complete loss of conscious existence until the time of the resurrection.

Not necessarily. Conditional mortality/immortality, being the only alternative to either unconditional immortality or mortality, doesn't suggest that life or consciousness necessarily ceases to exist after bodily death, if one possesses immortality.

Further, it isn't exclusive to Seventh Day Adventists. As a former agnostic, I still possess a fairly stringent standard for accepting doctrine, and conditional immortality is the only assumption I can find which is supported by biblical statements such as "God is able to destroy body and soul," "Christ alone possesses immortality," and that we must strive to "put on immortality" just as we "put on Christ." The alternative has far less support, otherwise I'd accept it, but if forced to choose between both Jesus' and Paul's doctrine, and an assumption that supports the doctrine of hell, hades, or some other version of the afterlife held by pre-Christian Gentiles for the sake of maintaining the ways of any institution, then I'll have to go with scripture, even if that leads me into "heresy."

 

[nephilimiyr]

There is a hellish cast to some SDA doctrine and soul sleep is certainly a great comfort to those who reject the gospel in favour of living a life of pleasure and riot in this world.

The thing with that guy was that he didn't reject a belief in Jesus Christ, he rejected the gift of eternal life. Otherwise he believed Jesus was/is God and that he died for him, yet he lacked any sense of love or thankfulness for that act. His love of sin was much greater. The guy odviously needs a heart change. I haven't prayed for him in a long time, I'll do so tonight!

You're right about people either relying on others or at least taking advice from others about their religious beliefs. Even the bible is a source of external advice about religion.

Word up, 100% agree with you on that.

 

[BobRyan]

I was talking about BobRyan's statement. He asserts that his spirit/soul/character will be totally unchanged were he to die as he read my post and appeared before God. Presumably his statement was intended to mean that nothing about him (except his body) would be changed when he faces God on judgement day. I am not sure what he intends that to mean.

I mean that as I said - no sinful nature - but the same character that we have when we die - is the one we have when we face God after death - at the resurrection. No change.

What he says is confussing. I agree with him about us not carrying our sin nature with us when we die. No longer having that propensity to sin haunting our soul will be a very welcome change if you ask me.

Indeed the sin nature is at war with our new nature that is born at the moment we are born again. The earthly process of sanctification is a continual putting away of sin in this life - and the character is changing as we do that. But when we die the character is at whatever point -- and that is what we have "unchanged" when we face God.

Now what I've been saying is that God created in us a born again spirit that God can and does recognise as being comepletely pure, perfect, righteous, and holy. When we die, God sees both the soul and spirit, the soul He sees maybe battered and torn because of the effects of sin, but He doesn't see sin in the soul, why, because the sin nature isn't there. He sees the wounds, yes, but not the sin. The sin nature is the reason why we sin,

Bible history proves that sinless beings can and did choose to sin as in the case of Adam and Lucifer. Furthermore our characters are such that at times we willingly choose to cherish sin rather than be at war with it. That would be a problem because the sinful nature not being there would not solved the issue for the one who now cherishes sin rather than choosing to be at war with it.

In any case - it leaves us no room for Purgatory.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Well, get this one. The guy I was talking about that I used to work with, he grew up in the Addventist church but was no longer a member but because he still believed what they taught he was totally bought and sold on the idea of soul death. The way he saw it, he could sin all he wanted and not have to pay the price as when his body dies, so does his soul. .

Adventists teach that the wicked literally are tormented in literal fire and brimstone paying off their sin debt in the 2nd death until all the suffering owed is payed at which point "God destroys BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell" Matt 10:28.

Your friend appears to be unaware of that fact.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I know that the Catholic/Orthodox Church is the only Church with any authority from God.

But I also know that the Catholic/Orthodox Church has abandoned much of the written Word of God.

I also know that because it stopped teaching the whole truth, it no longer walks with the Holy Spirit.

The Church today, is very much being presided over as the Pharisees governed the Church is Jesus’ time here on earth.

The Protesting-Catholics of the 15th and 16th centuries felt that same way at one time.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The part in bold was (and may still be) a commonly taught view but it is not Catholic dogma. Post #322 offers dogmatic teaching as well as CCC explanations of it. Unforgiven venial sins are not explicitly mentioned in Trent's definition.

Unforgiven mortal sins have nothing to do with purgatory.

Do you find venial sins mentioned here?

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory.

In any case my list remains.

And it appears that Luther was not going for this either - so I am curious as to how the Catholic church thinks the Protestant reformation "is over".

There never was a 'Protestant' reformation to start with, that is one of the biggest oxy-morons in history. It is better classified as a revolt,

Correction - it was Catholics "protesting" the wild flagrant excesses and abuses in the RCC of their day and then being tossed out on their ear.

My point above is that since the Catholic - Martin Luther was listing his objections to the false doctrines of his day - and including Indulgences and much of Purgatory along with it to be false - why is the Pope and Tony Palmer out to declare the Protestant reformation over this year? It can't be over until the list of issues is addressed.

I thought we all agreed to at least that much.

Protestant Churches of today do not hold to the false doctrine of purgatory or indulgences -- no not even to this very day. Nor do they hold to the infallability of the Pope, or to the sinless nature of Mary, no immaculate conception, no praying to the dead, no using images in worship etc etc. No magic "confecting the body and blood of Christ". No magic waters of Baptism.

The same differences are seen "in every day practice".

What we don't do is constantly remind attendees that the Catholic church is still in the dark ages on these items. We simply practice the Bible form of the Gospel. We are not appealing to RCC leadership trying to get them to change the doctrines and practices of the RCC the way the Protesting-Catholics were doing it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[MoreCoffee]

BobRyan, I am confident that the three definitions given below have been given to you before but since you keep asking about venial sins, mortal sins, and purgatory I am including them once more. I cannot be confident that you will read them or remember them since your present questions indicate to me that even though they have been given before you have either not read them or forgot them. They are all derived from the glossary at the end of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I hope they may be beneficial to you.

VENIAL SIN is sin which does not destroy the divine life in the soul, as does mortal sin, though it diminishes and wounds it. Venial sin is the failure to observe necessary moderation, in lesser matters of the moral law, or in grave matters acting without full knowledge or complete consent.

MORTAL SIN is a grave infraction of the law of God that destroys the divine life in the soul of the sinner (sanctifying grace), constituting a turn away from God. For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must be present: grave matter, full knowledge of the evil of the act, and full consent of the will.

PURGATORY is a state of final purification after death and before entrance into heaven for those who died in God’s friendship, but were only imperfectly purified; a final cleansing of human imperfection before one is able to enter the joy of heaven.

One Catholic author said,

The souls in purgatory also are members of the communion of saints. They are established in grace forever, even though their minor sins and debts of penance have still to be purged away. They cannot yet see God, but the Holy Spirit is in them and with them, never again to be lost. We often refer to this branch of the Church as the Church suffering.

...

... what does the communion of saints mean for us in practice? It means that all of us who are united in Christ— the saints in heaven, the souls in purgatory, and we upon earth—must be mindful of the needs of one another. The saints in heaven are not so rapt in their own bliss as to forget the souls they have left behind. They could not forget if they would. Their perfect love for God must include a love for all the souls whom God has made and adorned with his graces, all the souls in whom God himself dwells, all the souls for whom Jesus died. In short, the saints must love the souls whom God loves. The love that the blessed in heaven have for the souls in purgatory and the souls on earth is not a passive love. We might call it an active, hungry love. The saints long to help onward to heaven all souls, whose precious value they now realize as never before. And if the prayer of a good man on earth has power with God, there is no estimating the power of the prayers which the saints offer for us. They are God’s heroes, God’s intimate friends and familiars. -- Leo Trese​

 

[prodromos]

Some years back I discovered that Jerome had erroneously translated "repent" as "do penance" in the Latin Vulgate and this developed into people being given strict penances to complete after their confession. Often times these penances were such that many were not able to complete them in their lifetime and it was probably out of this that the doctrine of purgatory developed.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Some years back I discovered that Jerome had erroneously translated "repent" as "do penance" in the Latin Vulgate and this developed into people being given strict penances to complete after their confession. Often times these penances were such that many were not able to complete them in their lifetime and it was probably out of this that the doctrine of purgatory developed.

I think that is not quite right. Harsh penances were given during the Roman persecutions and just after they ended and all that was a century or more before saint Jerome did his work. Purgatory comes from a Jewish practise of prayer and sacrifice for the dead from which it is reasoned that some among the faithful who have died may be in need of help to complete their journey to God.

 

[BobRyan]

I think that they teach that man is body & breath rather than body & soul. It seems that their teaching rejects any continuing existence of the human soul in consciousness after bodily death.

Soul sleep - not breath sleep is the teaching of the Seventh-day Adventist church.

No payment for venial sins after death, no suffering of the saints between death and heaven, no "consequences" for arguing with your wife to be paid after death but before you can get into heaven etc.

Christ paid for all the suffering and torment "owed" by anyone after death. "It is appointed unto man once to die and then comes the judgment".

Christ took the stripes for us "to whom the stroke was due" for that sin of being rude to your spouse etc.

The only thing you are taking with you to heaven is your character so if you cherish sin here you will have a problem - for that goes beyond your sinful nature creating a "desire for sin" rather it is your own soul gathering sin to yourself and cherishing it.

in Christ,

Bob