Purgatory!

[PhillipLaSpino]

We need to examine several words that should satisfy both parties. The words justified and sanctified. To be justified by faith, is the justification given by God to men through Christ, in which He (the Father) is said to regard, and treat all who come to Jesus by faith as righteous, meaning they are already approved and shall be rewarded as truly holy; and to absolve them from the consequences of sin and admit them into God’s favor.

Rom.3:26, “God“ is the justifier of him (Christian’s) which believe in Jesus.” with ver.30, "God, which shall justify the circumcision (Jews) by faith, and uncircumcision (Gentiles) through faith.”

One more;

Rom.5:1, “Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God (the Father) through our Lord Jesus Christ.” I can quote many more verses. We can reason that all that is needed for salvation is faith, plus nothing. Now once we are justified, we are sanctified!

Now the word sanctified:

Acts 20:32, 26:18, those who turn from the power of Satan unto God, "My receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me (Jesus.)” There is nothing else concerning any further correction.

1 Cor.6:11, "Ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the (Holy) Spirit of our God." Cleansed by the Holy Spirit.

Again all that is need to be justified, than sanctified in order to inherit the Kingdom of God is faith in the finished work of the cross. There is nothing in Scripture concerning any further form of punishment, chastisement, correction, penalty or trial. Faith alone plus nothing!

Jude 1, To be called, "To them (Christian’s) who are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ."

Preserved means [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']1 Thes.5:23, "Be preserved blameless" and speaks of persons Jude 1, "Preserved in Jesus Christ."[/FONT]

Phil LaSpino

 

[Albion]

We don't even know with any degree of certainty what hell is like-or heaven for that matter.

That's true, but we have only what the Bible tells us about them to go on. In the case of Purgatory, the church invented it and defined it. It answered all the questions about it, how it works, etc. None of that is dependent upon Scripture...and none of it was limited by Scripture since it was strictly a supposition, like Limbo, made into a doctrine.

When the church defined Purgatory as a place of purgation and torment, that became Purgatory. And guess what? It's still the same today, even though there is a lot of embarrassment about such an antiquated notion of God's justice being still taught by the church.

 

[fhansen]

That's true, but we have only what the Bible tells us about them to go on. In the case of Purgatory, the church invented it and defined it. It answered all the questions about it, how it works, etc. None of that is dependent upon Scripture...and none of it was limited by Scripture since it was strictly a supposition, like Limbo, made into a doctrine.

When the church defined Purgatory as a place of purgation and torment, that became Purgatory. And guess what? It's still the same today, even though there is a lot of embarrassment about such an antiquated notion of God's justice being still taught by the church.

Like I said, its still taught in one form or another by both east and west. And the source of man's punishment/torment is always the same: distance from God. And man's will has always been the source of this problem, from Adam on. I agree that limbo was primarily supposition, with some degree of support regarding levels of beatitude in heaven, but purgatory is much older.-with no reason for supposition since eternal life isn't even in question with that doctrine.

 

[Albion]

Like I said, its still taught in one form or another by both east and west.

It's taught by SOME people in both East and West. Shucks, that could be said of almost any idea.

And the source of man's punishment/torment is always the same: distance from God.

If you've been forgiven your sins, what is "the distance from God?" I'd say it's zero.

 

[fhansen]

It's taught by SOME people in both East and West. Shucks, that could be said of almost any idea.


If you've been forgiven your sins, what is "the distance from God?" I'd say it's zero.

For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 1 Cor 13:12
The difference in knowledge between "now" and "then"-and the accompanying happiness that will be realized "then"- is unimaginably enormous. Until "then" we suffer greatly, relatively speaking, relative to what God has in store for those who love him.

 

[MoreCoffee]

One Catholic poster even disagreed with the CCC.

What post would that be from? Where's the evidence?

 

[Steve Petersen]

The notion of purgatory is also found in Jewish literature:

PURGATORY - JewishEncyclopedia.com

 

[concretecamper]

The bottom line is...despite recent innovations and some rather far fetched interpretations, the Early Church taught a cleansing.....the Church has always taught a state of cleansing. Call it purgatory call it whatever you want....the Bible is clear for those who have ears.

This is the same argument for the word "Pope" or "mortal sins" not being in the bible.

 

[South Bound]

The bottom line is...despite recent innovations and some rather far fetched interpretations, the Early Church taught a cleansing.....the Church has always taught a state of cleansing. Call it purgatory call it whatever you want....the Bible is clear for those who have ears.

This is the same argument for the word "Pope" or "mortal sins" not being in the bible.

First of all, why is it that every time you guys say "the Bible is clear", you never tell us where the Bible says what you claim? If the Bible is so clear, then shouldn't you be able to point to where in the Bible what you're claiming is found?

Second, "the Bible is clear"? Congratulations on finally embracing the Biblical doctrine of sola scriptura.

 

[concretecamper]

First of all, why is it that every time you guys say "the Bible is clear", you never tell us where the Bible says what you claim? If the Bible is so clear, then shouldn't you be able to point to where in the Bible what you're claiming is found?

Second, "the Bible is clear"? Congratulations on finally embracing the Biblical doctrine of sola scriptura.

There are 2 threads on this topic. I have seen nothing that refutes a purgatory. I am sure you will say you see nothing that supports a purgatory. So much for personal interpretation of scripture.

I get my love of scripture from the RCC

 

[South Bound]

There are 2 threads on this topic. I have seen nothing that refutes a purgatory. I am sure you will say you see nothing that supports a purgatory. So much for personal interpretation of scripture.

And I've seen nothing that supports Purgatory or the Catholic idea that there is a mythical place where sinners must go to expiate those sins Christ's blood was insufficient to cleanse.

I get my love of scripture from the RCC

The RCC loves scripture like O.J. loved Nicole.

This shows how little you know..... oh well.

You can insult me or you can prove me wrong. Go ahead and show us where Purgatory is found in scripture.

Ah... but it has been proven thru scripture..... you just refuse to hear.

And what verses do you believe prove it from scripture? And how do you reconcile those verses with verses like 1 John 1:7, which tells us that there are no sins left to expiate in Purgatory because they've been cleansed by the blood of Christ? Or Hebrews 10:14, which tells us that there are no imperfections to work off because Christ has perfected those whom He sanctifies?

You keep saying "the Bible says this" and "the Bible says that", but you've yet to show us where the Bible says these things.

I was just thinking that the discussion has run in the opposite direction. There are a lot of people saying, in effect, "If I were God, I would do this...." and then they dutifully conclude by agreeing with their church denomination in claiming that there is a Purgatory. But as for proving that there IS a Purgatory--nothing much.

Not only have they not shown evidence for Purgatory in scripture, they've been completely unable to refute the Bible's teaching that Christ's atonement was sufficient, that Christ's blood cleanses from all sin, that Christ has perfected those whom He sanctifies.

They don't even agree on what the purpose of Purgatory is. Their own Catechism says it's for the sinner to expiate sin, but they don't even agree on that. Some say it's for the expiation of sin, some say it's not.

They can't even get their own stories straight and yet, they want to insist that they know what the Bible says.

 

[Albion]

There are 2 threads on this topic. I have seen nothing that refutes a purgatory.

I was just thinking that the discussion has run in the opposite direction. There are a lot of people saying, in effect, "If I were God, I would do this...." and then they dutifully conclude by agreeing with their church denomination in claiming that there is a Purgatory. But as for proving that there IS a Purgatory--nothing much.

 

[Albion]

And I've seen nothing that supports Purgatory

I wonder how many other mythical lands our friend believes in only because no one has proved that they don't exist?

 

[concretecamper]

And I've seen nothing that supports Purgatory or the Catholic idea that there is a mythical place where sinners must go to expiate those sins Christ's blood was insufficient to cleanse.



The RCC loves scripture like O.J. loved Nicole.

This shows how little you know..... oh well.

 

[concretecamper]

I was just thinking that the discussion has run in the opposite direction. There are a lot of people saying, in effect, "If I were God, I would do this...." and then they dutifully conclude by agreeing with their church denomination in claiming that there is a Purgatory. But as for proving that there IS a Purgatory--nothing much.

There have been many scriptural evidences presented. So you refuse to agree with the Church's interpretation. That proves my point on the reliability of personal interpretation.

No one will change their mind or be convinced otherwise. It seems like a big exercise in futility.

 

[concretecamper]

I wonder how many other mythical lands our friend believes in only because no one has proved that they don't exist?

Ah... but it has been proven thru scripture..... you just refuse to hear.

 

[Albion]

Ah... but it has been proven thru scripture..... you just refuse to hear.

Easy to say. Impossible to substantiate.

 

[Albion]

There have been many scriptural evidences presented.

Yes, and there are all kinds of evidences--strong and convincing ones and also very weak ones. Catholics like to point to verses that have about as much to do with Purgatory as the existence of water does to proving infant baptism.

In short, none of the "evidences" come close to being proofs, but at least you can claim that scripture proves Purgatory if you can point to any verse, whether relevant or not, right?

 

[South Bound]

There are 2 threads on this topic. I have seen nothing that refutes a purgatory. I am sure you will say you see nothing that supports a purgatory. So much for personal interpretation of scripture.

And I've seen nothing that supports Purgatory or the Catholic idea that there is a mythical place where sinners must go to expiate those sins Christ's blood was insufficient to cleanse.

I get my love of scripture from the RCC

The RCC loves scripture like O.J. loved Nicole.

This shows how little you know..... oh well.

You can insult me or you can prove me wrong. Go ahead and show us where Purgatory is found in scripture.

Ah... but it has been proven thru scripture..... you just refuse to hear.

And what verses do you believe prove it from scripture? And how do you reconcile those verses with verses like 1 John 1:7, which tells us that there are no sins left to expiate in Purgatory because they've been cleansed by the blood of Christ? Or Hebrews 10:14, which tells us that there are no imperfections to work off because Christ has perfected those whom He sanctifies?

You keep saying "the Bible says this" and "the Bible says that", but you've yet to show us where the Bible says these things.

I was just thinking that the discussion has run in the opposite direction. There are a lot of people saying, in effect, "If I were God, I would do this...." and then they dutifully conclude by agreeing with their church denomination in claiming that there is a Purgatory. But as for proving that there IS a Purgatory--nothing much.

Not only have they not shown evidence for Purgatory in scripture, they've been completely unable to refute the Bible's teaching that Christ's atonement was sufficient, that Christ's blood cleanses from all sin, that Christ has perfected those whom He sanctifies.

They don't even agree on what the purpose of Purgatory is. Their own Catechism says it's for the sinner to expiate sin, but they don't even agree on that. Some say it's for the expiation of sin, some say it's not.

They can't even get their own stories straight and yet, they want to insist that they know what the Bible says.

Yes, and there are all kinds of evidences--strong and convincing ones and also very weak ones. Catholics like to point to verses that have about as much to do with Purgatory as the existence of water does to proving infant baptism.

My favorite is when they try to claim that the passage in 1 Cor is about Purgatory, when it's actually about the Bema Seat Judgment.

One poster in this thread cited a verse from a parable about forgiveness and claimed that was about Purgatory. They sure do have a lot of straws to grasp at.

 

[concretecamper]

Yes, and there are all kinds of evidences--strong and convincing ones and also very weak ones. Catholics like to point to verses that have about as much to do with Purgatory as the existence of water does to proving infant baptism.

In short, none of the "evidences" come close to being proofs, but at least you can claim that scripture proves Purgatory if you can point to any verse, whether relevant or not, right?

So say you........