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South Bound

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Did the eldest brother cease to be a brother just because he took his inheritance and left to squander it? Of course not.

Many grow up separated from His Church and sincerely do not know any better.

CCC. 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

And what of those of us who do know Christ, who do know the [Catholic] Church, who do know the Gospel, but, with sound mind and a firm grasp of Catholic doctrines, reject Roman Catholicism, its doctrines, and its self-proclaimed authority?

But those who have themselves separated from Her, I would say the Trent doctrine more closely applies.

So, if we're anathema, how can we be brothers in Christ?
 
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concretecamper

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And what of those of us who do know Christ, who do know the [Catholic] Church, who do know the Gospel, but, with sound mind and a firm grasp of Catholic doctrines, reject Roman Catholicism, its doctrines, and its self-proclaimed authority?

You cannot know Christ and His gospel while rejecting The Catholic Church.


So, if we're anathema, how can we be brothers in Christ?

Baptism leaves an indelible mark.
 
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nephilimiyr

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I can only go on what people argue for
I just finished reading the whole thread and with all due respect I didn't see anyone making or forming an arguement around how in heaven or on the new earth we all will be actually the same imperfect beings that we were when we lived our lives down here on the old earth.

I do agree though that the Protestant view of how we are perfected hasn't fully been put forward here but I suspect that it's because for now they're argueing against something, not for something.
 
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nephilimiyr

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You cannot know Christ and His gospel while rejecting The Catholic Church.
I'm pretty sure that South Bound used "the Catholic Church" with the meaning of the universal Church, not the Roman Catholic Church, there is a difference. ;)
 
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South Bound

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You cannot know Christ and His gospel while rejecting The Catholic Church.

You realize when you say that I don't know Christ, you're violating forum rules, right? ("● Do not state or imply that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christian.") You also realize that it paints you as someone who is unable to have a conversation, but must resort to ad homs and childish condescension, right?

Fortunately, though, I'm not a litigious person and so I probably won't report you.

Baptism leaves an indelible mark.

And therein lies the difference between us. We believe that it is regeneration, an act of God, that leaves the mark, while you believe that it's baptism, a work of man (or, in your case, man's parents) that leaves the mark.

But, for the sake of argument, if what you're saying is true, how do you explain the millions of Catholics who get baptized and not only never show the fruit consistent with salvation, but never attend mass, never partake of the sacraments, etc? Where's their "mark"?
 
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concretecamper

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You realize when you say that I don't know Christ, you're violating forum rules, right? ("● Do not state or imply that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christian.") You also realize that it paints you as someone who is unable to have a conversation, but must resort to ad homs and childish condescension, right?

Fortunately, though, I'm not a litigious person and so I probably won't report you.



And therein lies the difference between us. We believe that it is regeneration, an act of God, that leaves the mark, while you believe that it's baptism, a work of man (or, in your case, man's parents) that leaves the mark.

But, for the sake of argument, if what you're saying is true, how do you explain the millions of Catholics who get baptized and not only never show the fruit consistent with salvation, but never attend mass, never partake of the sacraments, etc? Where's their "mark"?

OK..next time I will lie and protect your feelings.
 
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ebia

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South Bound said:
while you believe that it's baptism, a work of man (or, in your case, man's parents)
Of course that's not true. A sacramental view sees a sacrament as a work of god.
 
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South Bound

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OK..next time I will lie and protect your feelings.

I've got to be honest and say I'm a little disappointed. Your fellow Catholics are at least trying to defend Catholicism and answer questions. All you're doing is making ad homs and childish insults.
 
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MoreCoffee

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I have a question for my Roman Catholic brothers and sisters, I don't remember being taught all that much on the teaching of Purgatory when I was in the [Catholic Church] and question just how much this teaching is a true doctrine of the [Catholic Church]. I know my mother believed in Purgatory and was the main person who taught it to me.

Several years back I remember being involved in a debate here on the teaching and I remember there were some Catholics who were arguing about the doctrine actually being a doctrine. Some were saying that it was while others were saying that it wasn't, and I forget the term they used, but were essentially saying it was merely a teaching of the Church that doesn't have to be believed by all Catholics. Um, is there anyone here who would like to tackle that? I do know that there are some Catholics who don't believe in the teaching and also that many Catholics, when asked for their opinions, differ in what it is actually all about.
Purgatory is Catholic doctrine. I wrote a reply in this thread that gives an outline of the doctrine as it is presented in sacred scripture and in the CCC. All Catholics ought to believe it and teach it.
The Glossary of the Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory thus:
PURGATORY is a state of final purification after death and before entrance into heaven for those who died in God’s friendship, but were only imperfectly purified; a final cleansing of human imperfection before one is able to enter the joy of heaven.​
Scripture tells us that in heaven the souls of the just have become perfect.
the spirits of the just made perfect (Hebrews 12:23c)​
Purgatory is the name that the church gives to the process of being made perfect. It seems to be obvious that in this life few (if any) are perfect before they die. If they die as imperfect people and if they are perfect in heaven then something happened to them that changed them from imperfect to perfect people.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. (St. Gregory the Great)​
Purgatory is not about forgiveness for one's sins nor is it about a payment made to God for one's sins. It is about the healing ministry of the Spirit in the character (nature) of the forgiven sinner.
1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.​
The kind of punishment mentioned here is the punishment one feels when one realises that one loves things more than one loves God. It is difficult to cease loving things more than one loves God and then turn towards God and love him more than the things one desires so much.

Wealth, health, one's career, partner in marriage, children, and so forth are among the things one loves more than one loves God. Jesus spoke this way about the discipline of loving God more than things in discipleship:
Matthew 10:34-39 NAB (34) Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword. (35) For I have come to set a man 'against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; (36) and one's enemies will be those of his household.' (37) Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; (38) and whoever does not take up his cross and follow after me is not worthy of me. (39) Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.​
More can be said on this, but the basic foundation of the Church's teaching on purgatory is given above. It is about the transition from imperfect love for God to perfect love for God that the faithful undergo before being present with God in heaven as the "spirits of the just made perfect".
 
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concretecamper

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I've got to be honest and say I'm a little disappointed. Your fellow Catholics are at least trying to defend Catholicism and answer questions. All you're doing is making ad homs and childish insults.

Ouch
 
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nephilimiyr

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Purgatory is Catholic doctrine. I wrote a reply in this thread that gives an outline of the doctrine as it is presented in sacred scripture and in the CCC. All Catholics ought to believe it and teach it.
I'm wondering then if there are different terms that the RCC uses to discribe escential doctrine and non-escential doctrine and then how the RCC views the differences between the two? I really want to be careful about what my memory tells me about that thread in the past I was talking about but it did make an impression upon me about how the modern RCC views the importance on the doctrine of Purgatory. I was given the impression that the doctrine, although viewed for the longest time as an escential doctrine is no longer viewed as such.

I could maybe look through my thread history that goes back to 2004, I actually have almost 900 threads in my thread history, but I think it would be like looking for a needle in a haystack. I might've even deleted it as if I don't delete any thread from my history I would probably have 3,000 or more in there to look through. :sigh:

 
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MoreCoffee

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I'm wondering then if there are different terms that the [Catholic Church] uses to describe essential doctrine and non-essential doctrine and then how the [Catholic Church] views the differences between the two? I really want to be careful about what my memory tells me about that thread in the past I was talking about but it did make an impression upon me about how the modern [Catholic Church] views the importance on the doctrine of Purgatory. I was given the impression that the doctrine, although viewed for the longest time as an essential doctrine is no longer viewed as such.

I could maybe look through my thread history that goes back to 2004, I actually have almost 900 threads in my thread history, but I think it would be like looking for a needle in a haystack. I might've even deleted it as if I don't delete any thread from my history I would probably have 3,000 or more in there to look through. :sigh:
The Catholic Church teaches that there is a hierarchy of truths revealed by God and that some truths are of greater significance than others so that is reflected in the Church's way of viewing doctrine. A simple way of looking at it is that in the matter of teaching on theology Dogma is the most authoritative teaching, doctrine is next, and last is speculation. Speculation is theology that the theologians are still debating.

Purgatory is dogmatic teaching.
 
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Rhamiel

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And what of those of us who do know Christ, who do know the [Catholic] Church, who do know the Gospel, but, with sound mind and a firm grasp of Catholic doctrines, reject Roman Catholicism, its doctrines, and its self-proclaimed authority?



So, if we're anathema, how can we be brothers in Christ?

the part you are responding to as "anathema" are for people who were Catholic and then left the Catholic Church, that does not really apply to people who were never Catholic

as for the first part of your question, there is some debate among Catholics as to what actually constitutes "invincible ignorance"
I am of a bit more traditional bent about all this, just as there was one Ark during the flood and those within it were saved from the deluge, so too have we be given one Church for the salvation of souls
 
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nephilimiyr

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as for the first part of your question, there is some debate among Catholics as to what actually constitutes "invincible ignorance"
I am of a bit more traditional bent about all this, just as there was one Ark during the flood and those within it were saved from the deluge, so too have we be given one Church for the salvation of souls
But the Church doesn't save souls, Jesus does.
 
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Rhamiel

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But the Church doesn't save souls, Jesus does.

we are all one body but many parts

the Church is the Body of Christ

we are saved by being joined to Christ and having our sins forgiven by Jesus

while this happens to individuals, it is as a collective that we are saved, just as in the Old Testament salvation was talked about as being for Israel, being connected with the tribes
 
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South Bound

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the part you are responding to as "anathema" are for people who were Catholic and then left the Catholic Church, that does not really apply to people who were never Catholic

Oh, I see. So then, the Catholic Church declared some people anathema for believing those doctrines listed in Trent, but it's fine if others want to believe them? If they weren't anathema for following those doctrines, then what were they anathema for?

And what of those who were Catholic, but who rejected the Catholic Church and its doctrines and embraced those Biblical doctrines listed in the Trent "anathema" clauses? Are they still anathema?

as for the first part of your question, there is some debate among Catholics as to what actually constitutes "invincible ignorance"

Typically, "invincible ignorance" is just a condescending way to say "Aw, you're just too stupid to know what Catholicism teaches, Puddin'."

The idea is that the Catholic Church is just so sparkly and wonderful that, to borrow a line from theologian, George Strait, nobody in his right mind would have left her.

The problem is that, as I pointed out before, many of us sat in the same Catholic Churches, received the same Catholic instruction and catechism from the same Catholic priests and nuns, studied the same Catholic sources, partook of the same Catholic sacraments as every other Catholic, but with clear eyes and a full and correct understanding of Catholicism, Catholic doctrines, Catholicism's self-proclaimed authority, etc, reject it.

I am of a bit more traditional bent about all this, just as there was one Ark during the flood and those within it were saved from the deluge, so too have we be given one Church for the salvation of souls

And therein lies the difference between us: you believe salvation lies in your Catholic Church. We believe salvation lies in the person and work of Jesus Christ.

Catholicism: Habemus ecclesia
Protestant Christianity: Habemus Salvator!

Thank God for the Reformation!
 
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Erose

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Let's discuss the following like adults who are searching for the truth!

Purgatory comes from the Latin, purgo, meaning, "I cleanse." The Catholic Church agrees that it is a place of suffering, but are divided on how those in purgatory suffer. Some say fire, others say, tribulation.

Those who teach purgatory say, "That some die in grace and in the friendship or God, but burdened with venial sins and imperfections, or before they have done suitable penance for their sins. They teach that the souls of these are cleansed in purgatory of these last hindrances to their entry into the vision of God.

Their communion with the faithful on earth is not broken. The living can bring comfort and alleviation to those in purgatory by their intercessions, by Masses, prayers, almsgiving, and other pious works which, in the manner of the Church, the faithful are accustomed to do for others of the faithful. They admit that the word purgatory in not a Biblical, and that this doctrine is not taught in Scripture." This from the words found in the Catholic Catechism.

The doctrine is founded on several verses, one being 2 Mac.12:43-44-45. I will not bring these verses into the discussion because Maccabees has no evidence of being Divinely inspiration.

Matt.12:31-32-33, Jesus said, "I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."

1 Cor.3:15, "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire (meaning purgatory.)"

1 Pet.3:19, "By which also He (Jesus) preached unto the spirits in prison (meaning purgatory.)"

This is a teaching of the Catholic Church; Restorationist and Mormons who deny that death brings the final judgment. They maintain that millions of people will have an opportunity for salvation after they die. The Jehovah Witnesses believe men do not have a soul or spirit, and upon his death, the body goes back to dust. But, on the last day, God will create them again out of nothingness.

Each denomination has its own little twist, but the following will give us a rough idea of the thinking behind it. It is believed that God created only to bless. Christ's kingdom is moral in nature, and extends to moral beings in every state or mode of existence: that the probation of man is not confined to the present life, but extends through the mediational reign; and that as Christ died for all. Therefore before He delivers up the kingdom to the Father, all men shall be brought to a knowledge and truth, thus breaking the bondage of sin and death.

Your thoughts;

Phil LaSpino
Phil,

I know that I am slight late to the party on this thread, but I felt the need to respond to your question, which is a very good question. I will post a response of mine from a different thread a long time ago, which has I think a pretty good explanation of purgatory from Scripture.
 
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Erose

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For sake of the discussion, I decided to offer up the following to display that Catholics do have a justification from Scripture for the doctrine of purgatory. You may not agree with it, and most probably you won't but then again there are a few things we all disagree upon. Anyway please forgive me if I missed something or didn't answer all of your questions:

The doctrine of purgatory is relatively simple and not as complex as some here would like everyone to believe. The Catechism of the Catholic church states simply:

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore Judas Maccabeus made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin." From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.

To simplify, purgatory is a state or condition of cleansing, that occurs after the death of someone who is saved and yet is not pure enough to enter God's presence. This state of cleansing is temporal. And our prayers edify those that are in this condition.

I will try to show that we as Catholics have a basis for this belief in Scripture. But to formulate that belief it requires a little ground work. In other words a foundation needs to be laid first before one can understand the purpose of this doctrine. The foundation is the following doctrines:

1) Temporal punishment due to sin.
2) Difference between mortal and venial sin.
3) The state of purity the soul must be in to enter God's presence.

1) Temporal punishment due to sin: When Christ died upon the cross for us, He took away from us the eternal punishment due to our sin, but He did not take away the temporal punishment due to our sin. This is best illustrated in 2nd Samuel:

2 Sam 12: [13] And David said to Nathan: I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said to David: The Lord also hath taken away thy sin: thou shalt not die. [14] Nevertheless, because thou hast given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, for this thing, the child that is born to thee, shall surely die.

In this passage, God saved David from permanent death, but not from temporal punishment due to his sin. Even though God forgave David, David's son was going to die.

We also find evidence of this in Hebrews 12: [5] And you have forgotten the consolation, which speaks to you, as unto children, saying: My son, neglect not the discipline of the Lord; neither be thou wearied whilst thou art rebuked by him. [6] For whom the Lord loves, he chastises; and he scourges every son whom he receives. [7] Persevere under discipline. God deals with you as with his sons; for what son is there, whom the father doth not correct? [8] But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are made partakers, then are you bastards, and not sons. [9] Moreover we have had fathers of our flesh, for instructors, and we reverenced them: shall we not much more obey the Father of spirits, and live? [10] And they indeed for a few days, according to their own pleasure, instructed us: but he, for our profit, that we might receive his sanctification. [11] Now all chastisement for the present indeed seems not to bring with it joy, but sorrow: but afterwards it will yield, to them that are exercised by it, the most peaceable fruit of justice.

Obviously God is a just God, so He is not going to chastise or scourge those that don't deserve it. So one can safely assume that someone that is being chastised by God has done something that God doesn't like, i.e. sin.

Another passage to look at is: Mat 5: [25] Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. [26] Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing. In this passage we see that there is a requirement for sin that is not eternal.

We also see it here: Matt 18: [31] Now his fellow servants seeing what was done, were very much grieved, and they came and told their lord all that was done. [32] Then his lord called him; and said to him: Thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all the debt, because thou besoughtest me: [33] Shouldst not thou then have had compassion also on thy fellow servant, even as I had compassion on thee? [34] And his lord being angry, delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt. [35] So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts.


2) Difference between mortal and venial sin. This is outlined explicitly in only one place in Scripture and that is 1John 5: [16] He that knows his brother to sin a sin which is not to death (venial sin), let him ask, and life shall be given to him, who sins not to death. There is a sin unto death (mortal sin): for that I say not that any man ask. [17] All iniquity is sin. And there is a sin unto death.

This passage provides us with an understanding that there are two categories of sin: venial (sins, which is not to death) and mortal (sin unto death). It should also be pointed out here that this passage encourages us to pray for our brethren that are under the weight of venial sin and that our prayers are beneficial to those under the weight of venial sin.

3) The condition of the soul to see God. Certain passages in Scripture tell us what condition our soul needs to be in to see God.

Rev 21: [27] There shall not enter into it anything defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.

Heb 12: [14] Follow peace with all men, and holiness: without which no man shall see God.

Matt 5: [8] Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God.

Jesus also commands us to: [48] Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect. [Matthew 5:48]
So what is this purity that is being spoken of here? Jesus isn't mincing words. He is telling us what condition we need to be in to see His Father face to face. Now here is a place where most Protestant/Evangelicals differ in our understanding of justification/sanctification and this topic is not the point of this discussion and I will not go into it here. But from the writings of Paul we know that our works shall be judged on the Day of the Lord as by fire:

1 Cor 3: [11] For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. [12] Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: [13] Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. [14] If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [15] If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire. [16] Know you not, that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? [17] But if any man violate the temple of God, him shall God destroy. For the temple of God is holy, which you are.

Verse 13 is very explicit that Paul is talking about the day of the Lord which is our own meeting with our Judge after our deaths. In this passage the man that builds upon Christ's foundation, has to be a Christian for an atheist does not build upon an internal foundation of Christ. Those works that he has built up are revealed by fire. Verse 14 outlines those whose works remain (i.e. works of righteousness) and he gets his reward (heaven). In verse 15, some of the works of the Christian are not works of righteousness and they burn. He suffers loss, but in the end he is saved. This refers to the those enduring purgatory. Then you have those Christians in verse 17, who have violated themselves through sin and those God will destroy. So here we see the rewards/punishments of heaven (14), purgatory (15), and hell (17).

Another passage that I believe support purgatory is:

Mat 12: [31] Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit shall not be forgiven. [32] And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

Purgatory and praying for the dead are tied to the hip and as such both support each other. So is praying for the dead Biblical? I say the answer is yes. The first passage comes from 2nd Maccabees, which I know is no longer in Protestant Bibles. But for the sake of the argument is important to point out that the Catholic church retained this book within its canon and views it as Canonical.

2 Mac: [39] And the day following Judas came with his company, to take away the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen, in the sepulchres of their fathers. [40] And they found under the coats of the slain some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth to the Jews: so that all plainly saw, that for this cause they were slain. [41] Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden. [42] And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain. [43] And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, [44] (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) [45] And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.

This passage outlines the ancient doctrine of praying for those that have passed on in hope of their resurrection, which it should be noted that not only do Apostolic Christians pray for the dead; but THE JEWS STILL FOLLOW THIS ANCIENT PRACTICE.

We also find in the writings of Paul a few interesting passages:

1 Cor 15: [29] Otherwise what shall they do that are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? why are they then baptized for them? [30] Why also are we in danger every hour? [31] I die daily, I protest by your glory, brethren, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 Tim 1: [16] The Lord give mercy to the house of Onesiphorus: because he hath often refreshed me, and hath not been ashamed of my chain: [17] But when he was come to Rome, he carefully sought me, and found me. [18] The Lord grant unto him to find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou very well knowest.

In the first passage quoted Paul is speaking of some form of practice that we have no information concerning, which refers to the ability of the living to do something that benefits those that have passed on. He also is using the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead to provide justification for this practice.

In the 2nd passage, Paul is referring to Onesiphorus in the past tense and not present as he does with others that he names. From the usage of past tense one could assume that Onesiphorus has already fallen asleep at the writing of this letter. Notice verse 18. Paul is praying that Onesiphorus finds the mercy of the Lord in that day. What day?

The point I am trying to make here is that we do have a justification of our belief from Scripture. You may not agree with my interpretation of these passages, but then again that is expected and I respect that.
 
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