Purgatory!

[Rhamiel]

...and the belief is that even sins that have been forgiven will have to be suffered for in Purgatory. So if you are going to agree with the RCC in the matter of Purgatory, point us to the people who have never committed even one sin.

Oh, that's right. You just said that Christians' past sins are gone, so that would mean there were some, and that would mean Purgatory.

part of this is, from a Catholic point of view, a lot of Protestantism seems to rest on the idea of Justification and Sanctification as being a Legal Fiction

you are not really changed, you are just declared so

the idea of Purgatory is that you are changed to become more like God before you can enter fully into His presence in Heaven

it is not suffering like payment or punishment, it is suffering because guess what, changing hurts

 

[ebia]

part of this is, from a Catholic point of view, a lot of Protestantism seems to rest on the idea of Justification and Sanctification as being a Legal Fiction you are not really changed, you are just declared so

And quite frankly I find the idea of a new heaven and new earth where everyone is just the same as now, but everyone is pretending everyone is perfect, to be completely unappealing.

 

[Albion]

part of this is, from a Catholic point of view, a lot of Protestantism seems to rest on the idea of Justification and Sanctification as being a Legal Fiction

Not really. But punishment is not sanctification.

the idea of Purgatory is that you are changed to become more like God before you can enter fully into His presence in Heaven

I'm sure we all can think of ways of wording it in order to make punishment sound positively heavenly.

 

[Giver]

Giver, you wrote: "Don’t you see it as strange that the Catholic Church would need to believe that one had to suffer for sins that God forgot."

God knows your sins ,there isn't any reason to remind God of our sins. God wants us to confess our sins to a Catholic priest [ John 20:22-23 ] " For what I have pardoned ..... I have done it in the person of Christ [ 2 Cor. 2-10 ]
" He who conceals his sins prosper not, but he who confesses and forsakes them obtains mercy [ Proverbs 28: 13 ]

"On behalf of Christ, therefore, we are acting as ambassadors, God, as it were, appealing through us " [ 2 Cor5:20 ]


Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.


Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and i

n Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Jesus called us to be perfect, and gave us the means to become perfect.

The teaching you quoted is another reason I was not able to allow the Catholic Church to have headship over me, any more.

Jesus has taught me that Christians do not sin.

A Christian receives the Holy Spirit, and then lives his or her life as the Holy Spirit dictates, and gives the grace to live that life.



(Romans 8: 4) “He did this in order that the law’s just demands might be satisfied in us, who behave not as our unspiritual nature but as the Spirit dictates.”

In the beginning one with the Holy Spirit will be given the grace to not deliberately commit a sin.

Some people need to be healed of past hurts, that caused them to do wrongdoings do to those hurts. These wrongdoings were the results of those, and need time for God to heal them.

After those unconscious wrongdoings are healed, then one will always be guided, and given the grace to never sin again.

I know this because Jesus has personally taught me about sin, and has kept me from sin for up to forty years.

 

[ebia]

Jesus called us to be perfect, and gave us the means to become perfect. The teaching you quoted is another reason I was not able to allow the Catholic Church to have headship over me, any more. Jesus has taught me that Christians do not sin. A Christian receives the Holy Spirit, and then lives his or her life as the Holy Spirit dictates, and gives the grace to live that life. (Romans 8: 4) “He did this in order that the law’s just demands might be satisfied in us, who behave not as our unspiritual nature but as the Spirit dictates.” In the beginning one with the Holy Spirit will be given the grace to not deliberately commit a sin. Some people need to be healed of past hurts, that caused them to do wrongdoings do to those hurts. These wrongdoings were the results of those, and need time for God to heal them. After those unconscious wrongdoings are healed, then one will always be guided, and given the grace to never sin again. I know this because Jesus has personally taught me about sin, and has kept me from sin for up to forty years.

I've never met anyone who didn't sin. Only people who do but deny it.

 

[Giver]

I've never met anyone who didn't sin. Only people who do but deny it.

That is a sad commentary on the state of the Christian Church today.

The Early Christians did not sin, and if a Spiritual Christian did sin, the following verse tells what happened to him or her. It was not always physical death, but is sure was spiritual death.

(Acts 5:1-11) The Fraud of Ananias and Sapphira

 

[ebia]

That is a sad commentary on the state of the Christian Church today. The Early Christians did not sin,

You have no evidence for that, and plenty against.

 

[Giver]

You have no evidence for that, and plenty against.

It is no big secret that Early Christians did not sin. That information was first given to me by a Catholic priest. A priest that did not believe in much of what Jesus was.

I am not a historian and have no interest in proving anything to you.

I gave you my witness, and you can do what you want to with that.

Jesus has me share to let people know that their houses are built on sand, and the sand is giving away.

 

[ebia]

It is no big secret that Early Christians did not sin.

It's simply not true. Every page in the NT stands as testimony that it's not true.

The early church certainly stood out in much clearer contrast to the world around them, but not to the point of being without sin altogether.

I am not a historian ...

 

[ebia]

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[Giver]

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Your use of (1 John 1:8-10) tells me you have very little understanding of what John was saying. It also is calling John a liar.

It is sad when one’s only defense for a false teaching is taking a scripture out of context to prove their false teaching.

When Jesus told the apostles that they were clean, do you believe that they would have been liars if they then said they were sin free?

“If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar.”

Can’t you see John was telling people everyone has sinned, and one would be a liar if he said they had not?

John was not telling people who no longer sinned that they were liars by admitting they no longer sinned.

(1 John 1: 8-10) If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.”

If one is forgiven of all unrighteousness are they not then sinless? Could they then be liars if they say they are sinless?

John later says: New American Bible
(1 John 3-10) “Everyone who has this hope based on him makes himself pure, as he is pure. Everyone who commits sin commits lawlessness, for sin is lawlessness. You know that he was revealed to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who remains in him sins; no one who sins has seen him or known him. Children, let no one deceive you. The person who acts in righteousness is righteous, just as he is righteous. Whoever sins belongs to the devil, because the devil has sinned from the beginning. Indeed, the Son of God was revealed to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is begotten by God commits sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot sin because he is begotten by God. In this way, the children of God and the children of the devil are made plain; no one who fails to act in righteousness belongs to God, nor anyone who does not love his brother.”


By not believing that John is telling us we are to live without sinning is calling John a liar. John tells us one who sins has never known God.

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”

John told us those who did not know God sinned and asked forgiveness and were forgiven, but once a person comes to know God he or she will not sin.

Scripture goes on to say that if a person who does know God uses their free will to sin there is no repentance for that person.

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

 

[Rhamiel]

That is a sad commentary on the state of the Christian Church today.

The Early Christians did not sin, and if a Spiritual Christian did sin, the following verse tells what happened to him or her. It was not always physical death, but is sure was spiritual death.

(Acts 5:1-11) The Fraud of Ananias and Sapphira

James 5:14-15
"Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven."

it seems to indicate that Christians might sin, and those sins can still be forgiven by God, through the action of earthly ministers and the contrition of the sinner

 

[fhansen]

Let's discuss the following like adults who are searching for the truth!

Purgatory comes from the Latin, purgo, meaning, "I cleanse." The Catholic Church agrees that it is a place of suffering, but are divided on how those in purgatory suffer. Some say fire, others say, tribulation.

Those who teach purgatory say, "That some die in grace and in the friendship or God, but burdened with venial sins and imperfections, or before they have done suitable penance for their sins. They teach that the souls of these are cleansed in purgatory of these last hindrances to their entry into the vision of God.

Their communion with the faithful on earth is not broken. The living can bring comfort and alleviation to those in purgatory by their intercessions, by Masses, prayers, almsgiving, and other pious works which, in the manner of the Church, the faithful are accustomed to do for others of the faithful. They admit that the word purgatory in not a Biblical, and that this doctrine is not taught in Scripture." This from the words found in the Catholic Catechism.

The doctrine is founded on several verses, one being 2 Mac.12:43-44-45. I will not bring these verses into the discussion because Maccabees has no evidence of being Divinely inspiration.

Matt.12:31-32-33, Jesus said, "I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."

1 Cor.3:15, "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire (meaning purgatory.)"

1 Pet.3:19, "By which also He (Jesus) preached unto the spirits in prison (meaning purgatory.)"

This is a teaching of the Catholic Church; Restorationist and Mormons who deny that death brings the final judgment. They maintain that millions of people will have an opportunity for salvation after they die. The Jehovah Witnesses believe men do not have a soul or spirit, and upon his death, the body goes back to dust. But, on the last day, God will create them again out of nothingness.

Each denomination has its own little twist, but the following will give us a rough idea of the thinking behind it. It is believed that God created only to bless. Christ's kingdom is moral in nature, and extends to moral beings in every state or mode of existence: that the probation of man is not confined to the present life, but extends through the mediational reign; and that as Christ died for all. Therefore before He delivers up the kingdom to the Father, all men shall be brought to a knowledge and truth, thus breaking the bondage of sin and death.

Your thoughts;

Phil LaSpino

Actually, Catholicis, along with the other, eastern, ancient churches, teach that our fate is sealed at death: heaven or hell. A final place or state of purification/being made righteous is for those who've been saved but are not yet 100% sold out to God, loving Him above all else with their whole heart, soul, mind, and strength. IOW, still somewhat attracted to the sin which makes us incapable of "seeing" God, another way of saying that no sinners enter heaven, as scripture tells us is so.

 

[Giver]

James 5:14-15
"Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven."

it seems to indicate that Christians might sin, and those sins can still be forgiven by God, through the action of earthly ministers and the contrition of the sinner

Yes but your understanding of what James said flies in the face of what John said.

(1 John 3: 5 - 6) “ Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him.”

Did you ever think that James knew that mature Christians did not need his advice? Because of that he was addressing the infants in Christ of that Community?

A mature/Spiritual Christian did not need James to teach them anything anymore.

(1 John 2:27) “But you have not lost the anointing that he gave you, and you do not need anyone to teach you, the anointing he gave teaches you everything; you are anointed with truth, not a lie, and as it has taught you, so you must stay in him.”


(1 Corinthians 3:1-3) “Brothers, I myself was unable to speak to you as people of the Spirit; I treated you as sensual men, still infants in Christ. What I fed you with was milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it; and indeed, you are still not ready for it since you are still unspiritual. Isn’t that obvious from all the jealousy and wrangling that there is among you, from the way that you go on behaving like ordinary people?”

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

But if we confess our sins, God, who is faithful and just, will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

It is no big secret that Early Christians did not sin. That information was first given to me by a Catholic priest. A priest that did not believe in much of what Jesus was.

I am not a historian and have no interest in proving anything to you.

I gave you my witness, and you can do what you want to with that.

Jesus has me share to let people know that their houses are built on sand, and the sand is giving away.

I have a graduate degree in the history of early Christianity and... you're wrong.

 

[Giver]

I have a graduate degree in the history of early Christianity and... you're wrong.

Jesus has taught me about God for forty years, and I know that a Spiritual Christian will not sin.

Did you ever think that the Church, which no longer has the Holy Spirit guiding it, might just not have exposed some information to you?

The Church with out the Holy Spirit can’t live with out sinning. So like the Protestant Churches they had to come up with theology that excused sin.

 

[ebia]

Your use of (1 John 1:8-10) tells me you have very little understanding of what John was saying. It also is calling John a liar. It is sad when one’s only defense for a false teaching is taking a scripture out of context to prove their false teaching.

Oh, I didn't post it as proof. The whole of the NT is that. Page after page after page written to and about sinning Christians.

 

[Giver]

Oh, I didn't post it as proof. The whole of the NT is that. Page after page after page written to and about sinning Christians.

Your statement is so untrue.

John says if one sins he or she does not know God.

John says if one sins he or she are of the devil.

(1 John 3: 5 - 6) “ Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him.”

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”

Scripture says that one, who has come to the knowledge of the truth, and deliberately sin, has no repentance.

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. --------“

You with all that education, and you did not know what scripture says about sin?

 

[Rhamiel]

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQYWWyU6_uoVXVgyKWTMYPbLzA1I1NbaLlaJg6MqlD8ZHcC-lX2

anima sola
the lonely soul
a traditional Spanish depiction of a soul in Purgatory