Purgatory!

[Giver]

I always find it amusing when Catholics try to gain the upper hand by saing things like "Well, you just don't understand [insert Catholic doctrine here]".

What makes it funny is that they're saying it to people who went to the same Catholic schools, attended the same catechism classes, were taught by the same priests and nuns, sat in the same Catholic churches, and read the same Catholic sources as they do.

The difference isn't that we don't understand Catholic doctrines, it's that we've compared them with the Bible and found them wanting. I won't say Catholics are brainwashed, but they do want to defend the Catholic Church even when it can't be defended and even when they have to ignore the truth to do so.

Yes I believe you are right, but what you said about Catholics, I believe is true for almost all Christians. Catholics are not any blinder to the truth then the Protestants.

 

[Albion]

I have yet to see a Protestant correctly define the RCC doctrine of purgatory

That's your idea of an "essential" doctrine? Rhamiel just got through dismissing the different views of Purgatory held by Roman Catholics themselves, on the basis that it's not one of the essentials.

 

[South Bound]

Yes I believe you are right, but what you said about Catholics, I believe is true for almost all Christians. Catholics are not any blinder to the truth then the Protestants.

I disagree.

 

[Albion]

Yes I believe you are right, but what you said about Catholics, I believe is true for almost all Christians. Catholics are not any blinder to the truth then the Protestants.

All right. That's a personal perspective, and depends very much on what counts as "the truth." Protestants, however, do agree overwhelmingly on the essentials that are the truth that matters. Yes, some like a lot of ceremony, others not, and some define the Lord's Supper and Baptism somewhat differently, but there is almost completely agreement on that which made Protestantism what it is--Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, the two Sacraments of the Gospel, and each individual's need to accept Christ as one's personal Lord and Savior.

Meanwhile, we've seen in this thread that Catholics don't even agree on a doctrine that they themselves created (Purgatory) and which is an article of faith to no other church, not even the Eastern Orthodox.

 

[Giver]

I disagree.

I will give you an example of blindness, on both Catholics and Protestants.

Jesus told me that Christians are dead to sin.

Scripture tells us Christians are dead to sin.

(Romans 6: 1-2) “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

(Romans 6:11) “In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus”

Jesus/Holy Spirit taught me that one who knew God did not sin.

Scripture tells us that very same thing.

Neither Catholics, nor Protestant believe that a Christian stops sinning.

(1 John 3: 5 - 6) “ Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him.”

 

[Albion]

I will give you an example of blindness, on both Catholics and Protestants.

Jesus told me that Christians are dead to sin.

Scripture tells us Christians are dead to sin.

I'm sorry, but you are now discussing how YOUR beliefs differ from those of both Catholics and Protestants. Because it's personal, doesn't directly deal with our subject (Purgatory), and has no application to the rest of us, let's not go there.

 

[concretecamper]

That's your idea of an "essential" doctrine? Rhamiel just got through dismissing the different views of Purgatory held by Roman Catholics themselves, on the basis that it's not one of the essentials.

Deflect rather than answer....haha

 

[Albion]

Deflect rather than answer....haha

Oh, you want a more direct answer?

You are wrong. Many former Roman Catholics are more knowledgeable about Roman Catholicism than recent converts to Catholicism are, or even many longtime members.

It only makes sense that this would be so, and South Bound was completely correct to say it.

 

[sonshine234]

And yet, you don't seem to be able to tell me what's wrong with the definition I gave you.

Purgatory: A place Catholics believe sinners go after death to expiate their sin.

Not quite. Purgatory is a place Christians go to expiate their sin.

 

[South Bound]

I will give you an example of blindness, on both Catholics and Protestants.

Jesus told me that Christians are dead to sin.

Scripture tells us Christians are dead to sin.

(Romans 6: 1-2) “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

(Romans 6:11) “In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus”

Jesus/Holy Spirit taught me that one who knew God did not sin.

Scripture tells us that very same thing.

Neither Catholics, nor Protestant believe that a Christian stops sinning.

(1 John 3: 5 - 6) “ Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him.”

Romans 6:11 doesn't say Christians don't sin.

Simul justus et peccator.

 

[South Bound]

Not quite. Purgatory is a place Christians go to expiate their sin.

First, as all Christians are sinners, Christians would be included in "a place where sinners..."

Second, this differs from the Christian belief, which is that Christians' sins were already expiated by Christ.

 

[concretecamper]

You are wrong. Many former Roman Catholics are more knowledgeable about Roman Catholicism than recent converts to Catholicism are, or even many longtime members..

Some...yes
many..... no way
on this forum....... definitely not.

 

[Albion]

Some...yes
many..... no way
on this forum....... definitely not.

My turn for the 'haha' now, isn't it?

 

[concretecamper]

My turn for the 'haha' now, isn't it?

 

[sonshine234]

First, as all Christians are sinners, Christians would be included in "a place where sinners..."

Second, this differs from the Christian belief, which is that Christians' sins were already expiated by Christ.

However, the way you phrase it makes it seem everyone goes to purgatory (I do not believe Christians are sinners anymore after we receive Christ grace). Once we accept Christ grace all past sins are gone but we still sin somtimes and some may not be confessed so purgatory comes into play.

Though I personally go by the Orthodox idea of toll booths. Aerial Toll-Houses - OrthodoxWiki

 

[Albion]

However, the way you phrase it makes it seem everyone goes to purgatory (I do not believe Christians are sinners anymore after we receive Christ grace). Once we accept Christ grace all past sins are gone but we still sin somtimes and some may not be confessed so purgatory comes into play.

...and the belief is that even sins that have been forgiven will have to be suffered for in Purgatory. So if you are going to agree with the RCC in the matter of Purgatory, point us to the people who have never committed even one sin.

Oh, that's right. You just said that Christians' past sins are gone, so that would mean there were some, and that would mean Purgatory.

 

[Giver]

...and the belief is that even sins that have been forgiven will have to be suffered for in Purgatory. So if you are going to agree with the RCC in the matter of Purgatory, point us to the people who have never committed even one sin.

Oh, that's right. You just said that Christians' past sins are gone, so that would mean there were some, and that would mean Purgatory.

Don’t you see it as strange that the Catholic Church would need to believe that one had to suffer for sins that God forgot.

(Hebrews 8:11-12) “ There will be no further need for each to teach his neighbour, and each his brother, saying 'Learn to know the Lord!' No, they will all know me, from the least to the greatest, since I shall forgive their guilt and never more call their sins to mind.”

So a Christian who has been forgiven of all unrighteousness and who receives the Holy Spirit that gives one the grace and guidance to sin no more, should still have to go to purgatory to be punished for sins that God no more calls to mind. Sins that God has forgiven and forgotten about?

 

[barryatlake]

Giver, you wrote: "Don’t you see it as strange that the Catholic Church would need to believe that one had to suffer for sins that God forgot."

God knows your sins ,there isn't any reason to remind God of our sins. God wants us to confess our sins to a Catholic priest [ John 20:22-23 ] " For what I have pardoned ..... I have done it in the person of Christ [ 2 Cor. 2-10 ]
" He who conceals his sins prosper not, but he who confesses and forsakes them obtains mercy [ Proverbs 28: 13 ]

"On behalf of Christ, therefore, we are acting as ambassadors, God, as it were, appealing through us " [ 2 Cor5:20 ]


Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.


Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti&#8221 generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

 

[Vanguard PCD]

Revelations also talks of the Martyrs in heaven crying out to God for vengeance Revelation 6:9

Revelation 6:9-11 is metaphorical, but yes, it just reiterates the dead remaining in their graves (resting, soul sleep, whatever)...God even tells them to "rest" a while longer.

There is not a single verse in the Bible that states upon death, you are immediately judged and sent to heaven or hell.

 

[barryatlake]

Primi Agminis, here is the real deal on your so-called man-made invention of "soul sleep"

Verses that speak of the dead sleeping use phenomenological language. For example, Daniel 12:2 states, "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." This image is of people getting up much as a sleeper rises in the morning. The sleep being discussed is phenomenological sleep, not literal sleep (Daniel is not talking about living people who sleep on the ground). Because dead people look like they are sleeping, especially when lying on their deathbeds (and notice that people often die on beds, enhancing the sleep analogy), the Bible often uses "sleep" as a euphemism for "death." In fact, this euphemism is common today.
There are two versions of the "soul sleep" theory.
The Jehovah's Witness claims that the soul ceases to exist at death and then is re-created by God at the resurrection. If their theory were true and there were no soul which survives death, it is difficult to see why the re-created "you" is not just a copy of you. It may have all your memories, but it is hard to see why it is not just a copy. If God had created this copy while you still existed, the fact it is a copy rather than the real you would be obvious.
If it is a copy, that causes problems of justice. Because you ceased to exist, you--the real you--were never punished for your sins or rewarded for your good deeds; you simply ceased to exist. Similarly, the copy of you which was created on the Last Day is then punished or rewarded for things it never did.
Once one has distinguished between the Jehovah's Witnesses' view and the view that claims that our souls simply sleep between death and resurrection, one can go on to refute these ideas by using the Bible. The following verses apply to both versions of the doctrine.
In Revelation 6:9-10, John writes, "When he [Christ] opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, 'O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?'"
Here John sees the disembodied souls of early Christian martyrs. The fact they are disembodied is known because they have been slain. Thus disembodied souls exist. The fact they are conscious is known because they cry out to God for vengeance. Unconscious people can't do that. Thus conscious, disembodied souls exist.
In Revelation 20:4 John sees these souls again: "Then I saw . . . the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God and who had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
Here again we have disembodied souls (they had been beheaded). John sees them coming to life to reign with Christ--hence they are in a pre-resurrection state. Some scholars argue that this is a spiritual resurrection rather than a physical one. Even if that were so, it would only strengthen the case for conscious, disembodied souls because, after having been beheaded, they would be reigning with Christ in heaven in a disembodied state.

Answered by: <A href="http://www.catholic.com/profiles/catholic-answers-staff">Catholic Answers Staff





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