Purgatory: Scriptural or not... or worse?

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

True I see what you mean now

That's all well and good, but when someone makes a blanket statement like that, I would like to know what his full belief is on the matter, he did all but say Protestantism is a false Religion, when Protestantism is not a Religion at all it is a Denomination within the Religion of Christianity.

There are some people who tell you all they know just by speaking a few words.

True I see what you mean now

 

[chilehed]

I said "EVEN IF" we agree that it refers to the afterlife....

If the premises are true and the logic is not flawed, then the conclusion must be true.

The idea that it does is not proven.

You think that Paul's use of the term "the Day", and the context, indicates something other than our judgement after we die?

However, the bigger point is that there's nothing there other than "fire" to link it to a Purgatory.

If we agree that it refers to the afterlife, and to a condition in which our imperfections are removed that is neither heaven nor hell, then that is Purgatory. I don't know why you're stuck on this fire thing.

 

[Sammy-San]

I don't know. (why pastors are not priests (per se) ).

Look in SCRIPTURE as when reading it daily and see if
there is any pastor in the SCRIPTURE like most pastors and priests and religious leaders are today.

It is enlightening if GOD allows us to see.

Do you view Orthodox as unbibical?

 

[Jezmeyah]

But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire (1 Corinthians 3:15).​

Fire burns up everything that is perishable. That which isn't burned up by fire is the vessel in the kiln, that which is imperishable. The pure word of God. So the vessel comes out as gold. The verse is talking about the difference between the works of man, and the works of faith. It's not talking about a question of being saved. It already said that the person in Christ will be saved. It's the works that are in question.

At any rate, the burning occurs while in heaven at the Bema Seat of Christ, it doesn't happen in purgatory. Neither is the person sent from heaven to purgatory to do his laps before going to the showers.

And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come (Matthew 13:32).

This is speaking of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.. it's speaking of a fully spiritual adult in faith Christian who renounces Christ out of unrepentant pride or some other unredeemable reason. For this, they would at death be in with those at the white throne judgement, their destiny sealed for hell. Such a thing is very very rare among the Christians who truely love God with all their heart. Therefore, this scripture is not qualifiable for the average Christian.

Some will be saved only "through fire," and others will be forgiven "in the age to come."

It does not state that 'they' will be forgiven in the age to come. It says that they will not be forgiven, not even in the age to come.

These are good scriptural supports for purgatory.

The use of scriptures to support unbiblical theology is in violation of the text being used. Those verses do not indicate that they address purgatory.

What is called purgatory, is actually the area called Abraham's Bosom. Which doesn't exist anymore since it was taken up to heaven, along with all the Jewish saints when Jesus rose from the dead. After that, hell was enlarged, they moved in and occupied that emptied out area.

What is purgatory?

All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven (CCC 1030).​

Since they are assured of their eternal salvation while alive, then it's of no gain to them to undergo some sort of self effort of 'purification' before going to heaven.

What for?

The blood of Jesus to purify completely isn't somehow sufficient? One must do works of their own to achieve what Jesus blood supposedly did not?

That kind of theology is man's work based. It is a clear opposition to the scripture that says we are saved by faith not by works lest anyman should boast. Salvation is by grace, it is the unmeritable gift of God.

Purgatory is not according to Biblical text in the gospels, nor can such teachings be found in the epistles which were written to Christians.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

I haven't read all 205 messages but purgatory is something very few branches of christians believe in. And it comes from books that were not part of the bible. THough the people that believe in it say the books were removed. They forget they were never part of the bible to begin with. The person that controls their branches only says they were part of it.

And the truth is if the Word is God and God is the Word then the true and correct bible would be the biggest one. Which isn't theirs. Its why most bible are the standard books. Even the books you see get handed out. Or the Gideon books. They are all the legit books of the bible. No added ones.

 

[W2L]

None. You can't buy people out of what does not exist.

However, purgation, that is, the changing of our very natures by the cleansing fires of God' love - now that's a different story. You don't do that with money (a Roman corruption which created the Reformation). You do that through prayers and fasting for your loved ones who have passed into the next world. Your prayers, in some way known only to God, help them in their theosis (becoming like Christ and assuming His nature) and their ultimate refinement so that they achieve union with God.

Thanks for your honesty.

 

[W2L]

Keep kidding yourself. You are going to be purged of any remaining sins in your nature so that you become in nature by adoption of grace what Christ is by nature. Without an ontological change in your nature, you will not achieve union with God.

I thought you said purgatory is a false doctrine?

 

[W2L]

Im a new creation in Christ, made clean by the spoken word. Im heaven bound.

 

[Jezmeyah]

I haven't read all 205 messages but purgatory is something very few branches of christians believe in. And it comes from books that were not part of the bible. THough the people that believe in it say the books were removed. They forget they were never part of the bible to begin with. The person that controls their branches only says they were part of it.

Anyone who makes the statement that Luthor removed X# books from the Bible is sure to be 'the people that believe that they should be there'. They however are hoping that no one remembers that the gospels and the epistles were not written by the religious leaders of those that believe the missing books should be there.

And the truth is if the Word is God and God is the Word then the true and correct bible would be the biggest one. Which isn't theirs.

Hold on, if those additional books were there, then it would be (with increased volume) the biggest book.

Its why most bible are the standard books. Even the books you see get handed out. Or the Gideon books. They are all the legit books of the bible. No added ones.

The Gideons knew that a bigger Bible wouldn't fit in the bedside drawers of the motels. I know the size of those drawers because I used to work as a roomcleaner at the local motel.

Maybe Luthor was thinking ahead.

 

[GingerBeer]

It seems to me to be an invention of humans who wanted to make a way for sinful people to get to heaven, bypassing the work of the Cross.

It is more like a way for imperfect people to be made perfect prior to entering God's presence. As far as I am able to tell Catholics teach that every person who goes through purgatory is a person redeemed by Jesus because of his work on the cross.

 

[Albion]

Not unless they are ordained within Apostolic Succession. You really don't understand covenant, do you? .

It may seem that way if you don't know anything about me.

 

[W2L]

Colossians 3 says that we have already died, and have been risen with Christ, and our life is hidden with Him in God, in heaven.

Purgatory doesnt agree with Colossians.

 

[Albion]

If the premises are true and the logic is not flawed, then the conclusion must be true.

That does require using the correct premises, however.

If we agree that it refers to the afterlife

But we haven't done that. See the above comment.

 

[Light of the East]

The blood of Jesus to purify completely isn't somehow sufficient? One must do works of their own to achieve what Jesus blood supposedly did not?

What Jesus did was to restore mankind to God and open the possibility of eternal life in the presence of God and with union with Him. What He did not do is to change your nature into god-likeness. That is what our lives are all about. That is what theosis is - cooperating with God's grace to become changed people.

That kind of theology is man's work based. It is a clear opposition to the scripture that says we are saved by faith not by works lest anyman should boast. Salvation is by grace, it is the unmeritable gift of God.

That is correct. But becoming a child of God does not mean that we are automatically changed into Christlikeness any more than being born makes you a fully grown adult able to drive a car on the day you were born. Life is a journey into the presence of God and union with Him. On the way, you are expected to work with the grace of God and the Sacraments of the Church to enact a change in your nature. This is what St. Paul spoke of when he spoke of putting off the old man and putting on the new man created in Christ.

Purgatory is not according to Biblical text in the gospels, nor can such teachings be found in the epistles which were written to Christians.

Purgatory is not, but purgation after death is. That is why it is so important to work with the Holy Spirit here and now so that the finishing of our salvation in the next life is as painless as can be.

 

[Light of the East]

Im a new creation in Christ, made clean by the spoken word. Im heaven bound.

Well, you can believe that if you want. You are going to be deeply surprised when you find out that there are some things about you and your nature that have yet to be cleansed. God's love is a fire, and that fire cleanses all who come into contact with it.

 

[Light of the East]

I thought you said purgatory is a false doctrine?

The idea of Purgatory as a place distinctly separate from God is rejected by the Orthodox. So are the ideas of indulgences and merit. But cleansing from remaining sin in our very natures is not. We are to be united to God through Christ. As such, all that is not like God when we are joined to Him will be burned away, much like the dross in gold is destroyed by the heat of the refiner's fire.

 

[Light of the East]

It may seem that way if you don't know anything about me.

Your posts tell me a lot.

 

[W2L]

Purgatory is not, but purgation after death is. That is why it is so important to work with the Holy Spirit here and now so that the finishing of our salvation in the next life is as painless as can be.

Colossians 3 says we have already died, and are risen with Christ. Hows that for an easter message? If we have risen already, and are hidden with Christ in God, according to colossians, then what is left to be cleansed? Perhaps this is why we are taught to walk by faith not6 sight. We look at the eternal things rather than the temporary things. Thats walking by faith not sight. Purgatory doesnt line up with scripture.

 

[W2L]

The idea of Purgatory as a place distinctly separate from God is rejected by the Orthodox. So are the ideas of indulgences and merit. But cleansing from remaining sin in our very natures is not. We are to be united to God through Christ. As such, all that is not like God when we are joined to Him will be burned away, much like the dross in gold is destroyed by the heat of the refiner's fire.

Jesus said his disciples were already clean through the spoken word of the Lord. Are we not clean as well?

 

[Light of the East]

Jesus said his disciples were already clean through the spoken word of the Lord. Are we not clean as well?

Being clean, or forgiven of your sins (a biblical concept) is not the same as having your very nature changed.

Look, I'll admit something here in public because I don't care who knows it. I was a pornography addict for a long time. I have confessed this, it is forgiven, and in that sense, I am cleaned. But because of the terrible grip that this addiction has on the mind, I still find myself looking at women and having "those thoughts." That's because my nature is not changed. I expect therefore that when I stand before Christ, and if I have been faithful to the end (death) I will experience His love as a burning fire which will change my lusting nature into His nature, which does not see women as objects for sexual gratification, but as beloved children of the Father. There is no lust in the nature of Christ Jesus.

I have had a lot of change to my nature already, having not looked at pornography for years by God's great grace, but as you see in my admission, the work in my very nature is not complete, and probably will not be until I am cleansed and changed in the fire of His love.

You may have, for instance, a problem with anger and rage. Or something else which is not Christ like. When you confess it, you are forgiven, but seeing that you struggle with it, that is a sign that your very nature (ontological reality) is not changed. That will take place when union with Christ in His passionate, fiery love occurs.

Does that make sense to you?