Purgatory: Scriptural or not... or worse?

[W2L]

Being clean, or forgiven of your sins (a biblical concept) is not the same as having your very nature changed.

Look, I'll admit something here in public because I don't care who knows it. I was a pornography addict for a long time. I have confessed this, it is forgiven, and in that sense, I am cleaned. But because of the terrible grip that this addiction has on the mind, I still find myself looking at women and having "those thoughts." That's because my nature is not changed. I expect therefore that when I stand before Christ, and if I have been faithful to the end (death) I will experience His love as a burning fire which will change my lusting nature into His nature, which does not see women as objects for sexual gratification, but as beloved children of the Father. There is no lust in the nature of Christ Jesus.

I have had a lot of change to my nature already, having not looked at pornography for years by God's great grace, but as you see in my admission, the work in my very nature is not complete, and probably will not be until I am cleansed and changed in the fire of His love.

You may have, for instance, a problem with anger and rage. Or something else which is not Christ like. When you confess it, you are forgiven, but seeing that you struggle with it, that is a sign that your very nature (ontological reality) is not changed. That will take place when union with Christ in His passionate, fiery love occurs.

Does that make sense to you?

Why would God cleanse us, only to leave us the way we were? Wouldn't he just have to cleanse us again? that doesnt seem correct to me.

 

[Light of the East]

Why would God cleanse us, only to leave us the way we were? Wouldn't he just have to cleanse us again? that doesnt seem correct to me.

** sigh **

I'm trying not to tear my hair out in frustration. You are stuck in the mode of "legal (forensic) justification" rather than understanding that our journey is growth, just like the journey of a newborn into adulthood. The changing of our nature is not instantaneous any more than a newborn is the next day a full adult ready to drive, vote, and go to college.

The changing of our nature takes time. And BTW - there was a slow change in my outlook over the years, from justifying what I did to realizing it was wrong, to coming to have God's victory over it. But the still yearning inside shows that there is yet a bit of work to be done, a final "cleaning" if you please.

 

[W2L]

** sigh **

I'm trying not to tear my hair out in frustration. You are stuck in the mode of "legal (forensic) justification" rather than understanding that our journey is growth, just like the journey of a newborn into adulthood. The changing of our nature is not instantaneous any more than a newborn is the next day a full adult ready to drive, vote, and go to college.

The changing of our nature takes time. And BTW - there was a slow change in my outlook over the years, from justifying what I did to realizing it was wrong, to coming to have God's victory over it. But the still yearning inside shows that there is yet a bit of work to be done, a final "cleaning" if you please.

Dont tear your hair out. I wasn't getting legalistic, no, i was instead getting spiritual. Those scriptures i posted were teaching spiritual truth.

 

[chilehed]

That does require using the correct premises, however.

You insist that my premises are wrong, but steadfastly refuse to provide any local reason why that is so. Since you avoid dealing with logic, reason dictates that your position is invalid.

I'm done here.

 

[Jack Isaacks]

I wonder if the original poster here was criticizing the Roman Catholic doctrine of Purgatory as it is actually taught by the Roman Catholic church, and held by intelligent, mature, instructed Roman Catholics.

Or could she just being firing salvos at what she TOTALLY MISUNDERSTANDS what the doctrine of Purgatory means.

Christ is risen!

 

[Albion]

You insist that my premises are wrong, but steadfastly refuse to provide any local reason why that is so.

I am referring to the fact that you keep saying that I agree with your premises when I've clearly written that I do not.

 

[paul becke]

It is looks like it is being used
instead of God's WORD and FAITH and TRUST IN JESUS.

People should not obsess about this concept of 'being already saved'. It can only be understood in a mysterious sense, and cannot be understood in a linear way. That is the simplistic analytical thinking of the world, omitting the consideration that we do not have God's perspective over time and eternity.

Paul was able to tap into the paradoxical sense of it, but he knew better than anyone perhaps that such a consideration, though true from the divine viewpoint/perspective, in no wise precluded the absolute necessity of efforts on our own part to obey God's will. And God's will was NOT that we should lie back on our laurels like a playboy son of billionnaire, and imagine that we would be candidates for heaven. I'm astonished that people who aspire to a Christian faith cannot see that the ugliness of that is an insult to God and man. But particularly, God.

 

[Albion]

I wonder if the original poster here was criticizing the Roman Catholic doctrine of Purgatory as it is actually taught by the Roman Catholic church, and held by intelligent, mature, instructed Roman Catholics.

Or could she just being firing salvos at what she TOTALLY MISUNDERSTANDS what the doctrine of Purgatory means.

Christ is risen!

I assume that she was stating the matter as she understood it to be. But the discussion quickly included people with a range of other opinions about the correct understanding--both Catholics and other Christians.

 

[Albion]

And God's will was NOT that we should lie back on our laurels like a playboy son of billionnaire, and imagine that we would be candidates for heaven.

But for the umpteenth time, NO ONE has been arguing for that view. It's meaningless to this conversation.

I'm astonished that people who aspire to a Christian faith cannot see that the ugliness of that is an insult to God and man. But particularly, God.

Everyone does, Paul.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

** sigh **

I'm trying not to tear my hair out in frustration. You are stuck in the mode of "legal (forensic) justification" rather than understanding that our journey is growth, just like the journey of a newborn into adulthood. The changing of our nature is not instantaneous any more than a newborn is the next day a full adult ready to drive, vote, and go to college.

The changing of our nature takes time. And BTW - there was a slow change in my outlook over the years, from justifying what I did to realizing it was wrong, to coming to have God's victory over it. But the still yearning inside shows that there is yet a bit of work to be done, a final "cleaning" if you please.

God's time is not our time; the evolution of plants and animals due to adapting to changing surroundings takes a great deal of time; yet God created man in only a single day with a single act. Your time argument holds no water; as I said before, the Good Thief was with Christ "today" i.e. the same day that he died.

I do agree with your statement regarding forensic justification; as we Lutherans would say: we are justified by faith, period, but sanctification is an ongoing process which begins at our baptism and ends with our last breath.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

It is more like a way for imperfect people to be made perfect prior to entering God's presence. As far as I am able to tell Catholics teach that every person who goes through purgatory is a person redeemed by Jesus because of his work on the cross.

They do. Even if your prayers, indulgences and Masses could shorten ones time in purgatory, an unrepentant soul in hell still would be in hell despite the best efforts of the faithful.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Jesus said his disciples were already clean through the spoken word of the Lord. Are we not clean as well?

Was St. Peter "clean" when he denied Jesus; those who fell asleep in the Garden with Jesus, St. Peter when he found himself again unable to walk on water because he doubted Christ.

Eternal salvation is more of a license to sin than Purgatory or Confession and Absolution ever were. We carry the stain of original sin, even when we sleep a dreamless sleep and commit no sin; we remain sinners until our death.

 

[Light of the East]

God's time is not our time; the evolution of plants and animals due to adapting to changing surroundings takes a great deal of time; yet God created man in only a single day with a single act. Your time argument holds no water; as I said before, the Good Thief was with Christ "today" i.e. the same day that he died.

Yes, but what did the "Good Thief" experience when he came into the fullness of God's presence? What part of his nature was in need of change to bring him into the fullness of union with Christ?

I do agree with your statement regarding forensic justification; as we Lutherans would say: we are justified by faith, period, but sanctification is an ongoing process which begins at our baptism and ends with our last breath.

Was forensic justification more of Calvin's Institutes than of Luther's writings?

 

[paul becke]

Honestly, I forgot exactly what it was but seems I had words with people here who pushed it and it left a very sour taste in my mouth...just didn't work for me.

I wouldn't be interested in pushing it to someone not interested in NDEs, but I have to ask you, since you responded, were you not impressed by the deeply-emotional body language of, for instance, the missionary pilot, Dale Black, Kenny ? There is a better, full-length coverage of the whole interview somewhere on YouTube, but also other interviews with him. Anyway, each one to his own. No sense in trying to be impressed by them against your natural inclination.

 

[Light of the East]

Was St. Peter "clean" when he denied Jesus; those who fell asleep in the Garden with Jesus, St. Peter when he found himself again unable to walk on water because he doubted Christ.

Eternal salvation is more of a license to sin than Purgatory or Confession and Absolution ever were. We carry the stain of original sin, even when we sleep a dreamless sleep and commit no sin; we remain sinners until our death.

Simul Justus et Peccator

 

[W2L]

Was St. Peter "clean" when he denied Jesus; those who fell asleep in the Garden with Jesus, St. Peter when he found himself again unable to walk on water because he doubted Christ.

Eternal salvation is more of a license to sin than Purgatory or Confession and Absolution ever were. We carry the stain of original sin, even when we sleep a dreamless sleep and commit no sin; we remain sinners until our death.

You are referring to the natural world. Faith however looks at the eternal things which are hidden. Colossians 3 says we have already risen, and our life is hidden with Christ, in God, in heaven above.

there is a hidden realm, and paul says we are already in it. He says we are already risen with Christ.

 

[W2L]

Isaiah 66:8 Who has heard such a thing?
Who has seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day?

 

[paul becke]

So how much money does it take to save my loved ones from purgatory?

God's time is not our time; the evolution of plants and animals due to adapting to changing surroundings takes a great deal of time; yet God created man in only a single day with a single act. Your time argument holds no water; as I said before, the Good Thief was with Christ "today" i.e. the same day that he died.

Yes, but what did the "Good Thief" experience when he came into the fullness of God's presence? What part of his nature was in need of change to bring him into the fullness of union with Christ?

I do agree with your statement regarding forensic justification; as we Lutherans would say: we are justified by faith, period, but sanctification is an ongoing process which begins at our baptism and ends with our last breath.

Was forensic justification more of Calvin's Institutes than of Luther's writings?

Oddly enough, Calvin seemed to understand the danger of assuming, it was 'all over bar the shouting, and the children of light didn't have to switch the light on, if they didnt feel like it. When I grew up in england, we used to crack Irish jokes. But it was actually in a spirit of banter, no malice in it at all. In fact, I think the English get on very well with the Irish for the most part, and vice versa. And as for their intelligence which was usually the butt of the humour, I read a newspaper report stating that European manufactrurers have said that they find the Irish workers more intelligent than us, generally.

But anyway, one that I remember reminds me of this whole business of being 'saved' and already neatly wrapped up, ready for heaven, as gift to God. There's also some tongue-in-cheek self-mockery on the score of rustic simplicity in that song, The Mountains of Mourne. As well, as jokes about themselves on the same score by the Welsh.

Anyway, here's the joke :

An Irishman comes to London, having heard that its streets were paved with gold. As he's walkng down the street, he sees a bundle of ten pound notes. He's just about to pick it up, when he thinks to himself, 'No. I won't start work till tomorrow.'

 

[paul becke]

You are referring to the natural world. Faith however looks at the eternal things which are hidden. Colossians 3 says we have already risen, and our life is hidden with Christ, in God, in heaven above.

there is a hidden realm, and paul says we are already in it. He says we are already risen with Christ.

Embryonically, yes. Fully ? No. Not by a long chalk.

 

[W2L]

Embryonically, yes. Fully ? No. Not by a long chalk.

I guess it depends on how one looks at it.

Psalm 27:5New King James Version (NKJV)
5 For in the time of trouble
He shall hide me in His pavilion;
In the secret place of His tabernacle
He shall hide me;
He shall set me high upon a rock.