Purgatory: Scriptural or not... or worse?

Gracia Singh said:

According to you, sure. But herein lies the difficulty in each believer taking up a Bible and interpreting it for themselves. You get thousands of unique and mutually exclusive theologies on every possible topic. They can not all possibly be correct.

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Why should anyone take up a Bible and interpret it for themselves and who is telling them to do it that way?

Proverbs 1:17

Peace.

Kenny'sID said:

I don't know what NDEs is?

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They are so-called, 'near-death' experiences, Kenny, when a person, according to the latest canons of modern medicine, is technically dead, having lost all the so-called 'vital signs', currently held to indicate the cessation of life in a person, suddenly, sometimes utterly inexplicably, return to life, and tend to make a miraculous recovery. A few people out of every hundred or so, who make such recoveries, experience a visit in their spirit, while the medical staff are still trying to revive their body, to heavenly purgatorial or infernal realms. Atheists go to great lengths to explain them away as hallucinations, etc, but that is clearly nonsense, as physicians, who themselves have had such an experience, testify.

Kenny'sID said:

That may be true, but it really doesn't have to be mentioned per se for it to be a holding place that must exist, that we gave a name to.

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Sorry.
The history and origin through pagan religion is very clear.
Not from the ONE TRUE GOD at all.
It is an abomination also, to charge money for the pagan concept.
As multitudes have realized,
even though multitudes of others remain deceived.

To me, the idea of purgatory represents the mercy of God.

Let's say you went through your whole life being a nominal Christian, not ever really putting God first, not striving to obey His commandments, doing the occasional "little" sin but nothing too serious, and assuming you would be saved in the end because you are basically a "good" person.

Then you die. What happens? Scripture says if you are lukewarm, God will spew you out of His mouth. Or maybe because you did believe in Jesus, even though you never really took Him very seriously, you will be accepted anyway because God is merciful. But if that were true, why would there be so many scary warnings in Scripture about people going to hell?

Maybe there's another option. Maybe after you die, you get a chance to learn the things you should have learned in life if you were paying attention. A second chance? Or maybe just going through remedial education.

There are plenty of people who think salvation is black or white, heaven or hell. If you don't get it right in this life, it's off with your head. But wouldn't a merciful God give us every opportunity to get it right?

After He died, Jesus went and preached to the souls in prison. Maybe He is still doing that?

I believe purgatory is a place of education, not punishment. It's painful because people in purgatory have an awareness that they could be fully in the presence of God, but they're not yet, they have to wait. It's not a matter of paying for sin, it's a matter of being ready to enter God's holy presence.

PollyJetix said:

I don't see the idea of purgatory in the Scriptures.

It seems to me to be an invention of humans who wanted to make a way for sinful people to get to heaven, bypassing the work of the Cross.

Thus, the idea of purgatory is not only non-Biblical, but ANTI-Christ.

If we can add to the work of Christ, by paying for "some" of our sins in purgatory,
then why can we not pay for all of them, eventually, in hellfire, and at some future point in eternity, escape hell?

Add to this, the idea of canonization of saints.
The Scriptures imply not at all, that some Christians who have died have achieved a higher "sainthood" (by going straight to heaven, and skipping purgatory) than those of us who are in Christ, here on earth.

The Bible calls all Christians, saints.

The ideas of canonized saints and purgatory are interdependent, and I can find no support for either in the Scriptures.

What say you?

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It is "worse"! The reason it is worse: it is a bold faced lie. It was created many centuries ago by one of the RCC's "pompous pope-in-tates"; for the sole reason of trying to steal EVERY dime of a widow's inheritance. Oh indeed yes, purely and simply.

It worked as follows; The pope decreed that NO one goes to heaven or hell when they die. For they must first; go to a place called "purgatory"; so that a priest or higher can "pray" a recently dead person OUT of purgatory; and THEN, and only then, will he be taken out of purgatory and then he goes to Heaven. Purely and simply.

(Note: IF the priest determines that he can't pray a deceased out of purgatory, then of course that person goes to hell; which is pure HOGWASH!)

Because Catholics are taught from birth that "popes" are infallible; EVERY word a pope says, is said to be "gospel". Oh indeed yes. So almost 100% of Catholic's believe it, without doubt. Supposedly, this was sanctified and ordered by Jesus. Which is another bold faced lie! Peter was NOT the "rock", NOR was he the "first pope"! For the RCC did not even exist until centuries AFTER Peter died! Oh indeed yes. Do the research.

Since they are taught that ONLY the pope can interpret the bible and God's word; there is NO reason for a catholic to ever read or try to study the bible. This of course was on purpose, and plays right into the perverted desires of the RCC. It was also WHY their bible ("Latin Vulgate") was written in Latin; which very few Catholics ever understood! And it has worked flawlessly for almost 1700 yrs! Purely and simply. Thus; they become some of THE most duped people on earth, sadly.

Interestingly, a much later pope was challenged on "purgatory"; when he was asked, "You KNOW purgatory is a lie. So why do you continue to say it is true? The pope answered, "If we were to give up purgatory, we would go bankrupt!"

This is due to the fact that in ALL cases; the deceased did NOT get "prayed out of purgatory"; until every dime of the widow's inheritance was in the Catholic "coffers". Oh yes indeed, purely and simply.

As to "saints". ALL true Christians ARE indeed "saints". There are NO exceptions to that if they are truly Christians. NO church or person can "canonize" a saint. For one becomes a "saint" the moment they are saved; just like the thief on the cross; who was saved and instantly became a saint. Etc, etc, and ETC! So the RCC's saying and espousing, that only they can determine who gets to be a saint, is another RCC lie. Purely and simply.

Sadly, there are many other lies that have been sold and believed hook, line and sinker by literally billions of gullible people for centuries and centuries. So sad. Oh indeed yes. Do the research if you doubt it.

In any case, may Jesus richly bless you and yours always.

JudyH said:

To me, the idea of purgatory represents the mercy of God.

Let's say you went through your whole life being a nominal Christian, not ever really putting God first, not striving to obey His commandments, doing the occasional "little" sin but nothing too serious, and assuming you would be saved in the end because you are basically a "good" person.

Then you die. What happens? Scripture says if you are lukewarm, God will spew you out of His mouth. Or maybe because you did believe in Jesus, even though you never really took Him very seriously, you will be accepted anyway because God is merciful. But if that were true, why would there be so many scary warnings in Scripture about people going to hell?

Maybe there's another option. Maybe after you die, you get a chance to learn the things you should have learned in life if you were paying attention. A second chance? Or maybe just going through remedial education.

There are plenty of people who think salvation is black or white, heaven or hell. If you don't get it right in this life, it's off with your head. But wouldn't a merciful God give us every opportunity to get it right?

After He died, Jesus went and preached to the souls in prison. Maybe He is still doing that?

I believe purgatory is a place of education, not punishment. It's painful because people in purgatory have an awareness that they could be fully in the presence of God, but they're not yet, they have to wait. It's not a matter of paying for sin, it's a matter of being ready to enter God's holy presence.

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This would be great for any other religion with an unjust and unrighteous and untrue God with no integrity !

But it directly opposes God's Word, God's Plan of Salvation, and all the instructions and all the warnings of JESUS as well as
all those warnings and instructions in God's Word,
Revealed by God.

PollyJetix said:

I don't see the idea of purgatory in the Scriptures.

It seems to me to be an invention of humans who wanted to make a way for sinful people to get to heaven, bypassing the work of the Cross.

Thus, the idea of purgatory is not only non-Biblical, but ANTI-Christ.

If we can add to the work of Christ, by paying for "some" of our sins in purgatory,
then why can we not pay for all of them, eventually, in hellfire, and at some future point in eternity, escape hell?

Add to this, the idea of canonization of saints.
The Scriptures imply not at all, that some Christians who have died have achieved a higher "sainthood" (by going straight to heaven, and skipping purgatory) than those of us who are in Christ, here on earth.

The Bible calls all Christians, saints.

The ideas of canonized saints and purgatory are interdependent, and I can find no support for either in the Scriptures.

What say you?

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PollyJetix said:

I don't see the idea of purgatory in the Scriptures.

It seems to me to be an invention of humans who wanted to make a way for sinful people to get to heaven, bypassing the work of the Cross.

Thus, the idea of purgatory is not only non-Biblical, but ANTI-Christ.

If we can add to the work of Christ, by paying for "some" of our sins in purgatory,
then why can we not pay for all of them, eventually, in hellfire, and at some future point in eternity, escape hell?

Add to this, the idea of canonization of saints.
The Scriptures imply not at all, that some Christians who have died have achieved a higher "sainthood" (by going straight to heaven, and skipping purgatory) than those of us who are in Christ, here on earth.

The Bible calls all Christians, saints.

The ideas of canonized saints and purgatory are interdependent, and I can find no support for either in the Scriptures.

What say you?

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Martin Luther is a founding father of nothing except the false man made tradition and doctrine of sola scriptura and the resulting chaos that even HE regretted in later life. Protestants keep quiet about that of course!

The problem with allowing " every milkmaid" to interpret scripture is " every milkmaid" to quote Luther - now has their own doctrine.


Net result is on every substantive issue in doctrine from eucharist to baptism, salvation to remarriage , pro life to clergy, LGBT to rapture, protestants have many mutually exclusive doctrines on each issue, amounting to tens of thousands of permutations of belief and denomination.

Since truth is unique it is clear that at least 9999 of the 10000 are preaching false doctrine from simple logic that must be true, add in the hundreds of thousands of non denominations for whom even that range of beliefs does t cater and all you have is chaos.

Meanwhile in the true church that traces back to the first times, and the true doctrine stated by scripture " the pillar and foundation of truth is the church" , and so it was the church councils that were responsible by "binding and loosing" for deciding what was true doctrine, and the New Testament even.

Protestants would be horrified if they studied the beliefs of those who decided their creed and canon. All the things they hate - take asking Mary for intercession even!

So true doctrine from the teaching magisterium states there is purgatory ( a state not a place) (or if you prefer the orthodox process of "purgation") . The ancient church appointed by Jesus that handed down true doctrine is clear.

The denouncing of that or the temerity of such as Polly to beleve she alone interprets scripture correctly, is a false teaching that started in medieval times. Only the church , and separately successor to the office of Peter are appointed to interpret doctrine correctly and scripture says that with " bind and loose"

The true church of Jesus remains under the Jesus appointed keys of Peter for those who wish to belong to it, not the 30000 modern fake and headless imitations, typified by the fact that if you don't like some aspect of doctrine you schism and set up your own. And so there are now tens of thousands of churches set up in the image of those who started the next schism, not in the image of Christ.

PanDeVida said:

Polly it is not what i, or we say, it is what Scripture Says/defines, the word Purgatory.

Polly, your founding father Martin Luther, Rejecting the inspiration and canonicity of II Maccabees does not negate its historical value. Maccabees aids us in knowing, purely from an historical perspective at the very least, the Jews believed in praying and making atonement for the dead shortly before the advent of Christ. This is the faith in which Jesus and the apostles were raised. And it is in this context Jesus declares in the New Testament: Polly, read the OT, II Maccabees 12:39-46, for yourself, OPPS! I forgot your bible is incomplete/Ripped apart by Martin Luther, for his agenda, and now yours, thus why you don't know any better. You will need a Catholic Bible. It will show you that it is good to pray for the Dead!

Matthew 12:32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come

Polly, In Matthew 5:24-25, Jesus is even more explicit about Purgatory, below:

Matthew 5:24-25 Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the JESUS/judge, and the JESUS/judge to the ANGEL/guard, and YOU be put in Purgatory/prison; truly I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny (Matthew 5:25-26). Polly, no one can get out from Hell, but you can PAY THE LAST PENNY and will get out of Purgatory/Prison.

Polly, 1 Peter 3:18Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit, 19In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in PURGATORY/prison: Polly this "Prison", still exist today and it is called Purgatory, until the Lords Second Coming.

Polly have not read Isaiah 6:6 Below:
Isaiah 6: 6And one of the seraphims flew to me, and in his hand was a live coal, which he had taken with the tongs off the altar. 7And he touched my mouth, and said: Behold this hath touched thy lips, and thy iniquities shall be taken away, and thy sin shall be cleansed.

Polly, the Seraphim, had to use tong with a live coal at the end of it, to touch the mouth and PURGE the iniquities and sins from Isaiah.

Polly you may not find the Actual word Purgatory in Scripture, but It's Definition SURE IS!

Polly Incase you are afraid to enter a Catholic Book Store for a A Catholic Bible. lol Here is
II Maccabees 12: 39-46
39 And the day following Judas came with his company, to take away the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen, in the sepulchres of their fathers.

40 And they found under the coats of the slain some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth to the Jews: so that all plainly saw, that for this cause they were slain.

41 Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden.

42 And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain.

43 And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection,

44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)

45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.

46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

Polly, II Maccabees 12:39-46, is what the Jews and Jesus and his Apostles believe in and Some Jews still preach this and as well as the Catholic Church, Because Christ did not come to destroy the Law and the Prophets but to full fill them. Polly The WORSE that you speak of in your title is that Martin Luther has done you wrong by taking out 7 books from the Bible, of course you believe what you believe and it is all his fault.

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PollyJetix said:

I don't see the idea of purgatory in the Scriptures.

It seems to me to be an invention of humans who wanted to make a way for sinful people to get to heaven, bypassing the work of the Cross.

Thus, the idea of purgatory is not only non-Biblical, but ANTI-Christ.

If we can add to the work of Christ, by paying for "some" of our sins in purgatory,
then why can we not pay for all of them, eventually, in hellfire, and at some future point in eternity, escape hell?

Add to this, the idea of canonization of saints.
The Scriptures imply not at all, that some Christians who have died have achieved a higher "sainthood" (by going straight to heaven, and skipping purgatory) than those of us who are in Christ, here on earth.

The Bible calls all Christians, saints.

The ideas of canonized saints and purgatory are interdependent, and I can find no support for either in the Scriptures.

What say you?

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PollyJetix said:

I don't see the idea of purgatory in the Scriptures.

It seems to me to be an invention of humans who wanted to make a way for sinful people to get to heaven, bypassing the work of the Cross.

Thus, the idea of purgatory is not only non-Biblical, but ANTI-Christ.

If we can add to the work of Christ, by paying for "some" of our sins in purgatory,
then why can we not pay for all of them, eventually, in hellfire, and at some future point in eternity, escape hell?

Add to this, the idea of canonization of saints.
The Scriptures imply not at all, that some Christians who have died have achieved a higher "sainthood" (by going straight to heaven, and skipping purgatory) than those of us who are in Christ, here on earth.

The Bible calls all Christians, saints.

The ideas of canonized saints and purgatory are interdependent, and I can find no support for either in the Scriptures.

What say you?

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Matthew 5:26

Kenny'sID said:

No. There were no spirits going to the imaginary place evidently named after a garbage dump.

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Jesus says there are. I'll take his word for it. Peace.

iwanna said:

Matthew 5:26

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In my opinion if you believe this to mean humans can pay or earn merit towards their own salvation you void Christ's crucifixion He died in vain if we can save ourselves. I can't believe that.

Vicomte13 said:

Jesus says there are. I'll take his word for it. Peace.

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Where? And I mean something clear/concise, not iffy.

I've read quite a bit of baseless claims, accusations and unsubstantiated opinions on this thread. Very sad really. Explains why we have over 30,000 Christian denominations claiming to have the truth. For those who are interested civil discourse, whether you agree or disagree with my views, I'll entertain any thoughtful questions and remarks to the best of my ability. "But in your hearts set Christ apart as holy [and acknowledge Him] as Lord. Always be ready to give a logical defense to anyone who asks you to account for the hope that is in you, but do it courteously and respectfully." 1 Peter 3:15

First, purgatory is not a second chance to enter heaven. Second, purgatory is based on Sacred Scripture though you may disagree with the interpretation. Third, the doctrine of purgatory has been around since the beginning of the Church. The Early Church Fathers studied, debated and prayed about it before forming and teaching their beliefs. You may disagree with them if you choose, but the point is that the doctrine of purgatory is not an invention of the medieval Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031).


The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven. You may disagree with the concept of mortal and venial sins and temporal punishment; however, simply ask yourself this question: At this moment have you been sanctified? That is perfected. Made Holy as Christ is Holy. If the answer is no but you have been saved, then if you were to die you would still need to be sanctified or purged of all stain as a result of sin because “Nothing impure will ever enter it (heaven.) Rev. 21:27. All those who enter purgatory will enter heaven. Anyone who has not been completely freed of sin and its effects is, to some extent, "unclean."

When we die, we undergo what is called the particular, or individual, judgment. Scripture says that "it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27). We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill. We know at once what our final destiny will be. At the end of time, when Jesus returns, there will come the general judgment to which the Bible refers, for example, in Matthew 25:31-32: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." In this general judgment all our sins will be publicly revealed (Luke 12:2–5).

Augustine said, in The City of God, that "temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment" (21:13). It is between the particular and general judgments, then, that the soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin: "I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last penny" (Luke 12:59).

The word purgatory is nowhere found in Scripture. This is true, yet it does not disprove the existence of purgatory or the fact that belief in it has always been part of Church teaching. The words Trinity and Incarnation aren’t in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it. Likewise, Scripture teaches that purgatory exists, even if it doesn’t use that word.

Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. This passage has been regarded by many of the Apostolic Fathers and theologians as evidence for the existence of an intermediate state in which the waste of lighter transgressions will be burnt away, and the soul thus purified will be saved.

Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.

Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.

I know some will argue that Scripture reveals that Christ has totally redeemed, or purchased back, that which was lost. It has all been done for us by Jesus Christ, there is nothing to be added or done by man.

It is entirely correct to say that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross. But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us. Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time through, among other things, the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy. Sanctification involves suffering (Rom. 5:3–5), and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven. Purgatory is the final phase of Christ’s applying to us the purifying redemption that he accomplished for us by his death on the cross.

“Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13) Clearly Paul is indicating a spiritual growth which takes place over time. I am closer to God now than I was 10 years ago, and by His Grace I will one day be in His presence.

There is no contradiction between Christ’s redeeming us on the cross and the process by which we are sanctified. There isn’t. You cannot argue that suffering in the final stage of sanctification conflicts with the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement without saying that suffering in the early stages of sanctification also presents a similar conflict. Our suffering in sanctification does not take away from the cross. Rather, the cross produces our sanctification, which results in our suffering, because "[f]or the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness" (Heb. 12:11).

The necessity of the purging is taught in other passages of Scripture, such as 2 Thessalonians 2:13, which declares that God chose us "to be saved through sanctification by the Spirit." Sanctification is thus not an option, something that may or may not happen before one gets into heaven. It is an absolute requirement, as Hebrews 12:14 states that we must strive "for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord."

I think purgatory is a process by where we learn of all the graces and blessings God gave us and we come to know our life and ourselves as God does, not just intellectually as though learning from a book, but spiritually, as only God can reveal the truth.
"For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child. But, when I became a man, I put away the things of a child. For now we see through a glass, dimly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

Mountainmike said:

Martin Luther is a founding father of nothing except the false man made tradition and doctrine of sola scriptura and the resulting chaos that even HE regretted in later life.

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Well, he also created very intense pressure on the Church to reform itself or lose its constituency. The Church DID sell indulgences before Luther. Admonition really wasn't nearly enough. The Church was not in the slow process of reforming. It was ossified and rotting from the head. Luther's rebellion against the Church authorities, and the rapidity with which it spread and multiplied, is a testimony to just how rotten and unsatisying the Church had become by his time. A half-century before Huss had attempted a reform, followed by rebellion when he got nowhere, but the Church was able to successfully quell him and that movement (through mass murder). Those tactics were tried on Luther and his followers, but they failed spectacularly. Luther's rebellion inspired Calvin and the Anabaptists, and the Church finally faced the choice of reform or dissolution.

The Church chose reform, and we are all better for that today. So, while one might decry Luther's excesses, and those of the other Reformers, we have to nevertheless acknowledge that their rebellion DID force the Church to correct itself. If the Church behaved today as it did in the years just before Luther, if the Pope, for example, were the head of the Gambino crime family, we would all leave it. And if the Church were like it was then, it would try to kill us on the way out. The Counter-Reformation left the Church that was much, much better than it would have been without Luther and the Reformation.

None of this means that Martin Luther will ever be a candidate for sainthood. Still, we should acknowledge that, in the Providence of God, Luther's brave, bull-headed stance ultimately DID result in the reform of the Church, for the better.

So to say that Luther founded nothing but chaos is not really true. He did a service thqt somebody had to do, and we are better off that he came our way. 500 years is a long enough space that we can acknowledge that without a heresy trial. And we DO acknowledge it, if only subtly, each year on Reformation Sunday, when the choirs in Catholic Churches all over sing "A Mighty Fortress", with most folks not even reading the small print identifying who wrote it.

Kenny'sID said:

Where? And I mean something clear/concise, not iffy.

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The parable of the unforgiving servant is as concise as you can get. The end of it in particular, where Jesus pronounces the judgment.

Vicomte13 said:

The parable of the unforgiving servant is as concise as you can get. The end of it in particular, where Jesus pronounces the judgment.

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Please explain in detail how you conclude that from the parable.