Purgatory: Scriptural or not... or worse?

[W2L]

Scriptures dont support purgatory. In order to believe purgatory doctrine, we must believe that we bear fruit in life, yet that's not good enough, so we must be further cleansed? Also, our body is the temple of God, are you saying Gods temple is defiled? Scripture doesnt support purgatory doctrine.

John 15:3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

2 Corinthians 5:16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,

 

[ripple the car]

Scriptures dont support purgatory. In order to believe purgatory doctrine, we must believe that we bear fruit in life, yet that's not good enough, so we must be further cleansed? Also, our body is the temple of God, are you saying Gods temple is defiled? Scripture doesnt support purgatory doctrine.

John 15:3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

2 Corinthians 5:16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,

While I agree that the Scriptures may not mention a place called Purgatory by name, the possibility of an after-death purgation of sin is not excluded, either.

The Eastern Orthodox Church has a doctrine known as the Aerial Toll Houses. The Catholic Church teaches the existence of a state known as Purgatory. Though the concepts are different, and though it's not clear to me if these are just two ways of describing the same spiritual reality, it seems at least possible that for a believer after death it will be necessary to pass through fire, be salted with fie, or be purged or refined in some way.

 

[PanDeVida]

Could Mark 9:49 be a reference to some kind of after-death purgation?

Isaiah,6And one of the seraphims flew to me, and in his hand was a live coal, which he had taken with the tongs off the altar. 7And he touched my mouth, and said: Behold this hath touched thy lips, and thy iniquities shall be taken away, and thy sin shall be cleansed.

Salted with Fire takes away sins. Sins that you die with providing that they are not Mortal Sins.

Garcia, Yes, Our Lord died and His Blood washes our venial and Mortal sins away when we ask Him to forgive us. How many times do we sin a day??? What if you end up dying with a sin not unto death, and there we stand before our Lord, what then??? Since, it is not sins that lead to death, and yet we can not enter heaven, because nothing unclean can enter heaven, then where do We Go??? We go to PURGATORY, where we can be salted with Fire or, until we pay the last penny!

There are different stages in Purgatory, from the worse to the least.

 

[W2L]

While I agree that the Scriptures may not mention a place called Purgatory by name, the possibility of an after-death purgation of sin is not excluded, either.

The Eastern Orthodox Church has a doctrine known as the Aerial Toll Houses. The Catholic Church teaches the existence of a state known as Purgatory. Though the concepts are different, and though it's not clear to me if these are just two ways of describing the same spiritual reality, it seems at least possible that for a believer after death it will be necessary to pass through fire, be salted with fie, or be purged or refined in some way.

Well, im sure not buying it. Thank you.

 

[ripple the car]

Isaiah,6And one of the seraphims flew to me, and in his hand was a live coal, which he had taken with the tongs off the altar. 7And he touched my mouth, and said: Behold this hath touched thy lips, and thy iniquities shall be taken away, and thy sin shall be cleansed.

Salted with Fire takes away sins. Sins that you die with providing that they are not Mortal Sins.

Garcia, Yes, Our Lord died and His Blood washes our venial and Mortal sins away when we ask Him to forgive us. How many times do we sin a day??? What if you end up dying with a sin not unto death, and there we stand before our Lord, what then??? Since, it is not sins that lead to death, and yet we can not enter heaven, because nothing unclean can enter heaven, then where do We Go??? We go to PURGATORY, where we can be salted with Fire or, until we pay the last penny!

Yes, that helps. Thank you.

Matthew 5:26 has always bothered me. It seemed to either refer to Hell being temporary, or to another temporary punitive state / place. Purgatory would fit that.

 

[Darren Court]

Okay... the correct answer and one few Christians ever realise is ... "sort of"

First, let's be clear. Purgatory, in regard to Catholic definition and application, certainly is not in the bible. Most of the Catholic doctrine in this regard is totally made up. Of course, the Catholic fallback position here is to deploy the "apostolic succession" card but even that doesn't really wash... especially when it's easily proven that there's plenty the Catholic church teaches that wasn't taught by the apostles and even more that was taught by the apostles that isn't taught by the Catholic church.

However............... what most Christians miss, simply because they are either ignorant or dismissive of Jewish teaching, is a curious phrase Jesus used on the cross. "Today, you will be with me in paradise". Most simply think this means heaven but the reality is that the word used is never to mean heaven. There is a specific word for heaven and Jesus did not use it here.

Moreover, the Jews themselves believe in a place between death and heaven that is called "paradise". They argued as to what happened here but the belief in paradise was pretty much universal.

Now Jesus talked quite a bit about heaven and as a Jew knew full well what Jews believed about paradise but sought never to correct them and used the word paradise when He spoke on the cross... either that was a mistake (which I cannot rationalise) or He meant paradise.

Therefore, I guess in someway "purgatory" and "paradise" could be viewed as the same thing... i.e. a place between death and heaven. Irrespective, God never gave any description of the place which means we know nothing about it. The Catholic claims for this place are at best a series of guesses and at worst deliberate attempts to manipulate.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

We walk by faith not sight.

No, we walk in faith; we walk by the Scriptures.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

Don't forget: Luther removed 7 books from the Bible

Is Purgatory in the Bible?

21 Reasons to Reject "Sola Scriptura"

Actually he rejected 7 books the Roman Catholic Church added to the Bible in the 15th century. Those books were never part of the original canon of Scripture.

Purgatory was a Catholic invention mostly to raise money by selling indulgences to provide "early release" to the souls in purgatory.

 

[W2L]

Okay... the correct answer and one few Christians ever realise is ... "sort of"

First, let's be clear. Purgatory, in regard to Catholic definition and application, certainly is not in the bible. Most of the Catholic doctrine in this regard is totally made up. Of course, the Catholic fallback position here is to deploy the "apostolic succession" card but even that doesn't really wash... especially when it's easily proven that there's plenty the Catholic church teaches that wasn't taught by the apostles and even more that was taught by the apostles that isn't taught by the Catholic church.

However............... what most Christians miss, simply because they are either ignorant or dismissive of Jewish teaching, is a curious phrase Jesus used on the cross. "Today, you will be with me in paradise". Most simply think this means heaven but the reality is that the word used is never to mean heaven. There is a specific word for heaven and Jesus did not use it here.

Moreover, the Jews themselves believe in a place between death and heaven that is called "paradise". They argued as to what happened here but the belief in paradise was pretty much universal.

Now Jesus talked quite a bit about heaven and as a Jew knew full well what Jews believed about paradise but sought never to correct them and used the word paradise when He spoke on the cross... either that was a mistake (which I cannot rationalise) or He meant paradise.

Therefore, I guess in someway "purgatory" and "paradise" could be viewed as the same thing... i.e. a place between death and heaven. Irrespective, God never gave any description of the place which means we know nothing about it. The Catholic claims for this place are at best a series of guesses and at worst deliberate attempts to manipulate.

Purgatory is a myth.

John 15:3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

 

[W2L]

No, we walk in faith; we walk by the Scriptures.

Ok, that works too.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

So, describe this "purgatory" to me, where you say we "get to suffer" to cleanse us from the consequences of our sins... where we "pay for" all the sins we have ever done, even though we are forgiven of them.
Is it not a place of fire? Of suffering? Is it not of undetermined length of time?
That sounds exactly like hell to me.
Except in your theology, you get to get out eventually, once you've suffered enough to be cleansed.
Wow.
Can you imagine if one expected to go to purgatory, and found themselves in hellfire, they would expect eventual liberation, instead of endless suffering?

Who says one suffers; I think the purging will be refreshing!

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Actually he rejected 7 books the Roman Catholic Church added to the Bible in the 15th century. Those books were never part of the original canon of Scripture.

Purgatory was a Catholic invention mostly to raise money by selling indulgences to provide "early release" to the souls in purgatory.

Actually, I have a copy of Luther's German Bible, and yes, they are all there; but between the Old and New Testaments; same place that St. Jerome wanted to put them.

 

[Patriarch28]

Okay... the correct answer and one few Christians ever realise is ... "sort of"

First, let's be clear. Purgatory, in regard to Catholic definition and application, certainly is not in the bible. Most of the Catholic doctrine in this regard is totally made up. Of course, the Catholic fallback position here is to deploy the "apostolic succession" card but even that doesn't really wash... especially when it's easily proven that there's plenty the Catholic church teaches that wasn't taught by the apostles and even more that was taught by the apostles that isn't taught by the Catholic church.

However............... what most Christians miss, simply because they are either ignorant or dismissive of Jewish teaching, is a curious phrase Jesus used on the cross. "Today, you will be with me in paradise". Most simply think this means heaven but the reality is that the word used is never to mean heaven. There is a specific word for heaven and Jesus did not use it here.

Moreover, the Jews themselves believe in a place between death and heaven that is called "paradise". They argued as to what happened here but the belief in paradise was pretty much universal.

Now Jesus talked quite a bit about heaven and as a Jew knew full well what Jews believed about paradise but sought never to correct them and used the word paradise when He spoke on the cross... either that was a mistake (which I cannot rationalise) or He meant paradise.

Therefore, I guess in someway "purgatory" and "paradise" could be viewed as the same thing... i.e. a place between death and heaven. Irrespective, God never gave any description of the place which means we know nothing about it. The Catholic claims for this place are at best a series of guesses and at worst deliberate attempts to manipulate.

 

[ripple the car]

The Catholic claims for this place are at best a series of guesses and at worst deliberate attempts to manipulate.

I would disagree here. Though much of what is taught by the Catholic Church is not explicitly spelled out in Scripture, it is in many cases hinted at.

 

[PanDeVida]

Scriptures dont support purgatory. In order to believe purgatory doctrine, we must believe that we bear fruit in life, yet that's not good enough, so we must be further cleansed? Also, our body is the temple of God, are you saying Gods temple is defiled? Scripture doesnt support purgatory doctrine.

John 15:3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

2 Corinthians 5:16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,

W2, when a Child if you happened to break a window playing ball in your parents home, will you still be apart of the family/Vine?? Yes!

however, you told your parents to forgive you and they did. You will still have to pay out of your allowance or be grounded for a week or both. this happens to many who have good parents, God is no Different.

W2, WELL, would you Be, still be apart of your Family/VINE???

W2, if you answered YES! then note You just proved yourself Wrong re: Purgatory!

 

[Patriarch28]

Okay... the correct answer and one few Christians ever realise is ... "sort of"

First, let's be clear. Purgatory, in regard to Catholic definition and application, certainly is not in the bible. Most of the Catholic doctrine in this regard is totally made up. Of course, the Catholic fallback position here is to deploy the "apostolic succession" card but even that doesn't really wash... especially when it's easily proven that there's plenty the Catholic church teaches that wasn't taught by the apostles and even more that was taught by the apostles that isn't taught by the Catholic church.

However............... what most Christians miss, simply because they are either ignorant or dismissive of Jewish teaching, is a curious phrase Jesus used on the cross. "Today, you will be with me in paradise". Most simply think this means heaven but the reality is that the word used is never to mean heaven. There is a specific word for heaven and Jesus did not use it here.

Moreover, the Jews themselves believe in a place between death and heaven that is called "paradise". They argued as to what happened here but the belief in paradise was pretty much universal.

Now Jesus talked quite a bit about heaven and as a Jew knew full well what Jews believed about paradise but sought never to correct them and used the word paradise when He spoke on the cross... either that was a mistake (which I cannot rationalise) or He meant paradise.

Therefore, I guess in someway "purgatory" and "paradise" could be viewed as the same thing... i.e. a place between death and heaven. Irrespective, God never gave any description of the place which means we know nothing about it. The Catholic claims for this place are at best a series of guesses and at worst deliberate attempts to manipulate.

 

[W2L]

W2, when a Child if you happened to break a window playing ball in your parents home, will you still be apart of the family/Vine?? Yes!

however, you told your parents to forgive you and they did. You will still have to pay out of your allowance or be grounded for a week or both. this happens to many who have good parents, God is no Different.

W2, WELL, would you Be, still be apart of your Family/VINE???

W2, if you answered YES! then note You just proved yourself Wrong re: Purgatory!

The child who accidentally breaks a window needs to be burnt in the fires of purgatory?

 

[kepha31]

Thus, we must conclude that many saved people after death, before the time of Christ, were in Hades, and were led out of it to heaven (whereas no one can be liberated from hell). And this means that an immediate “destiny of woe or bliss” for all people is a false and unbiblical statement.

Holy Scripture describes a third state besides heaven or hell, which is precisely what purgatory is (and purgatory bears some resemblance to Hades in some ways). What has been proven is that this particular argument of Geisler’s against purgatory (everyone immediately goes to heaven or hell at death) fails. It dies the death of being subject to far too many (biblical) qualifications: maybe not a thousand, but more than enough to dispose of it.
"everyone immediately goes to heaven or hell at death" is a 16th century Protestant invention, a tradition of men, it was never thought of before that time. It's late arrival says enough in itself.

I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness
Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won't get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This "prison" is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 Jesus says, "And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next." Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase "in the next" (from the Greek "en to mellonti") generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory. Pollyjetix was the only one who tried to refute the logic of 3 commentaries, but ended up denying the verse.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him "on that day." Paul's use of "that day" demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word "unclean" comes from the Greek word "koinon" which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God

Date inscribed: approx. 3rd century​

 

[Patriarch28]

"Today, you will be with me in paradise." Yet, if he was a thief, or a revolutionary, how could he go to heaven without being cleansed in Purgatory according to Catholic doctrine? Clearly someone with the character of a thief cannot go clodhopping into heaven without a radical change in his character. Yet, wouldn't hanging naked on a cross for three hours, and then dying by suffocating as a result of having one's legs broken been a terrible purgation? Yes, it would have been. If he was repentant and suffered willingly-i.e. without rebelling against God- how could such suffering not have been a purgation? It was his purgatory. We know that, because he was cleansed well enough to be with Christ that day in paradise.

 

[Patriarch28]

Thus, we must conclude that many saved people after death, before the time of Christ, were in Hades, and were led out of it to heaven (whereas no one can be liberated from hell). And this means that an immediate “destiny of woe or bliss” for all people is a false and unbiblical statement.

Holy Scripture describes a third state besides heaven or hell, which is precisely what purgatory is (and purgatory bears some resemblance to Hades in some ways). What has been proven is that this particular argument of Geisler’s against purgatory (everyone immediately goes to heaven or hell at death) fails. It dies the death of being subject to far too many (biblical) qualifications: maybe not a thousand, but more than enough to dispose of it.
"everyone immediately goes to heaven or hell at death" is a 16th century Protestant invention, a tradition of men, it was never thought of before that time. It's late arrival says enough in itself.

I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness
Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won't get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This "prison" is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 Jesus says, "And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next." Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase "in the next" (from the Greek "en to mellonti") generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory. Pollyjetix was the only one who tried to refute the logic of 3 commentaries, but ended up denying the verse.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him "on that day." Paul's use of "that day" demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word "unclean" comes from the Greek word "koinon" which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God

Date inscribed: approx. 3rd century​

Wait, kepha, there is something the matter here! I thought Catholics did not know their Scripture.