Purgatory: Scriptural or not... or worse?

[PollyJetix]

Pretty much this is the Eastern view of salvation. You should become Orthodox!

Purgation after death is not about "paying a debt." It is about healing of the soul.

No, this is the BIBLICAL view of salvation.
It's the view of Pentecostals.

We do not rely on purgatory to get our souls healed after we die.
That's provided in the Cross, according to Isaiah 53.

We do not rely on purgatory to subdue our iniquities.
That's the job of the Holy Ghost, as Romans 8:11 tells us.
The Spirit of He-Who-raised-up-Christ quickens our mortal bodies (which even after Christ comes to dwell in us, are dead!) so we can live our earthly lives in accordance with His will.

 

[kepha31]

Proof for the Scriptural nature of Purgatory can be found by comparing Luke 16:19-31 with Luke 23:43. In Luke 16, Jesus speaks of the poor man Lazarus being taken up to the "Bosom of Abraham." However, despite what is commonly presumed, this cannot be Heaven, since souls did not enter Heaven at this time (not even according to Jewish theology), but awaited Jesus' death, Resurrection, and Ascension for this.

Until the Lord opens the gates of Heaven ("I go to prepare a place for you"), it was not possible for humanity to enter into the Presence of God. Rather, the God-man needed to do this first in order to make a place for humanity before the Throne of the Father. Rather, this "Bosom of Abraham" in Luke 16 is what Jewish oral tradition refers to as "the Paradise of the Fathers" --the Garden of Eden, which was withdrawn from the earth; the Jewish equivalent to the Greco-Roman/pagan idea of the "Ellesian Fields" --a pleasant place, but part of Sheol/Hades/Death nonetheless.

Now, ... To show that this is the case, one only need to look at Luke 23:43, where Jesus tells the Good Thief, " This day you will be with me in Paradise. " Notice, here, that Jesus does not say, " ...in Heaven." ...And this is because, as we all know, Jesus did NOT go to Heaven THAT DAY. Rather, Jesus spent 3 days in the tomb! ...Not rising until Sunday morning. ...And we know from Scripture (e.g. 1 Peter 3:19 & 4:6) that Jesus' soul spent that day AMONG THE DEAD in Sheol. ...And, as John 20:17 hammers home for us, EVEN ON SUNDAY MORNING, Jesus had STILL "not yet ascended to the Father." So, the "Paradise" Jesus is talking about in Luke 23 is absolutely not Heaven itself. Rather, He is talking about the Paradise of the Fathers, and he is promising the Good Thief (a justly-condemned Jewish criminal) that, far from being condemned to Gehenna, he will be with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the righteous patriarchs (models of Judaism) in the Paradise of the Fathers. And this would have been enough for this Jew to die in peace --saved from hell, yet not fully-sanctified so as to immediately enter Heaven.
The Catholic Legate | Questions & Answers

 

[kepha31]

No, this is the BIBLICAL view of salvation.
It's the view of Pentecostals.

We do not rely on purgatory to get our souls healed after we die.
That's provided in the Cross, according to Isaiah 53.

You are far from getting it. Purgatory is not about paying the penalty of sin. Jesus on the Cross pays the penalty of our sin -- which is death. Those in purgatory are not in spiritual death; they are all headed to heaven.

Purgatory pays for the "consequences" of our sin, not for the sin itself. If, when you die, you are totally full of grace and sin free, and all righteous and holy, you will go straight to heaven. But lets be real. Not many of us are that holy.

We do not rely on purgatory to subdue our iniquities.

Subduing our iniquities has nothing to do with purgatory.

That's the job of the Holy Ghost, as Romans 8:11 tells us.
The Spirit of He-Who-raised-up-Christ quickens our mortal bodies (which even after Christ comes to dwell in us, are dead!) so we can live our earthly lives in accordance with His will.

Again, you are not getting any of this. The work of our redemption is accomplished. It is finished. But the application of that redemptive work of Christ by the Holy Spirit is another matter.

Christ has accomplished our redemption. It's over and done with. He has finished it. But then He sends the Holy Spirit to apply it, and the application of redemption is just as essential. We don't have a binary deity, the Father and the Son We have a trinitery deity, a family a Father, a Son and a Holy Spirit. Jesus said, "I come to baptize with fire and spirit." And so, when the Spirit comes at Pentecost, tongues of fire appear, and whenever the Holy Spirit appears, there is Holy Fire. When we are taken up into the Spirit, there we are consumed with a passionate, burning love, the furnace of Christ's heart, the reality of the Holy Spirit, the fiery love of God.

That is not because Christ's work is not enough. It's rather the application of the work of Jesus Christ.

I've come across people in the Church who are firmly convinced that purgatory gives people a second chance. It doesn't! Now, you may think, that's just a non-Catholic misconception, but no, it's a common Catholic misconception that if you died and you were alienated from God, purgatory is your second chance. That's not the case. That totally distorts the Church's teaching.
Purgatory: Holy Fire
by Dr. Scott Hahn

 

[The Times]

I put a funny feedback to your following comments as I will endure to explain.....

The work of our redemption is accomplished. It is finished. But the application of that redemptive work of Christ by the Holy Spirit is another matter. It involves suffering which nobody wants to come to grips with either suffering in this life or suffering afterwards to expiate or to repay or to provide restitution for the effects of sin.
Furthermore, we've got to clarify the fact that it is not to make up for Christ's unfinished work. I've already said that, but that, too, is a common misconception that continually needs clarification. There's nothing inadequate about the work of Christ. It's finished, but it needs to be applied.

The work and application of redemption is complete at the cross of Christ.

Why?

Because, the sinless deity was the one who not only died on the cross on all our behalves as his devine works, but he also went down to Shoel in paradise to finish the application of that entire redemptive process from his life, death, Shoel/Purgatory to his resurrection.

Jesus Christ in Shoel/Paradise, that is three days in the belly of the earth and on everyone's account had repayed for all sins, past, present and future as he is the only lamb found worthy to bring restitution for the effects of sins in one day. A complete transaction occured when Christ was crucified, went to paradise/Shoel and arose.

Why does it need to be a complete transaction involving both the redemptive works and the application of redemption?

Before I answer this pertinent question in the next quoted comment reply, I will quote old testament scripture to prove that God said so......

9See, the stone I have set in front of Joshua! There are seven eyes on that one stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it,’ says the Lord Almighty, ‘and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day.

10“ ‘In that day each of you will invite your neighbor to sit under your vine and fig tree,’ declares the Lord Almighty." (Zech 3-9-10)

The sins are restituted by Jesus Christ, because with restitution follows the verse that each faithfill in Christ will sit under Christ, the vine tree. This means that the transaction is complete and everything is paid for by Jesus and all we need to do, is to enjoy Christ's fruits.

Restitution goes hand in hand with reconciliation and Daniel 9:24 states that the Messiah is the one who reconciled us to God the Father.

to make reconciliation for iniquity/sin

Purgatory pays for the "consequences" of our sin, not for the sin itself.

If this is true, then we must deny that Jesus made reconciliation for our sins when he was three days in the belly of the earth. We must therefore claim falsely that we need to by our MERIT and in the afterlife reconcile ourselves to God the Father, through punitive punishment in an afterlife penal prison. This would be in complete disharmoney with Zech 3:9-10.

For example, if I throw a rock through your window I have committed a sin. I can become sorry for my sin and go to Confession and be absolved of that sin. Jesus paid the price for my sin. But......... the window is STILL broken. The broken window is the "consequence" of my sin and it still needs to be repaired. The Cross does not repair the window, that is my responsibility.

You have made an analogy that the window is still broken as far as the damage of sin still remains to be paid for right?

This is the only conclusion that one can make from your statement.

Let us say who is it that we are paying for the broken window?

God the Father, because it is written we have sinned against the righteous God and have fallen short of his glory (Romans 3:23)

So this is about owing God back for the broken window in the form of reparation. Once we repay God whom we sinned against, then we have made full reparation and now and only now can we be reconciled to God the Father, to enter his heavenly house, right?

You would now agree that Purgatory is therefore anti scriptural and needs to be immediately removed as a Church doctrine right?

Jesus not only worked out our redemptive process within the salvation plan of God through his sinless lamb, but he also fully restituted and paid for the damage, that is all the multitude of sins past, present and future. It is through the living vine according to what is written in Zechariah 3:10 that we enjoy the relationship we have with God, because we whilst we live and breath, we know that we have been fully reconciled to God the Father through the compete transaction made by the Son at the cross at calvary and in three days of the belly of the earth.

Who on earth would live in peace and comfort today under the living vine Jesus Christ, if deep in our hearts we believe that we need to still pay God for the broken windows and that we are not free yet until we make that payment after we die.

The purgatory doctrine is preposterous and results in disharmoney, brings discomfort, having the thought that something still is hanging on one's shoulders, that we are not free from, because we still need to pay for the broken windows, that are the sins reparation.

Again this doctrine is preposterous indeed.

Thus, one of the aspects of purgatory is to pay for all the broken windows in our life that we did not get around to paying for during our life on earth.

In this regard we are not free and Christ hasn't made reparations and we are still not reconciled to God the Father because a debt is still hanging on our heads that we need to pay for after death.

but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

This doesn't apply to other sins other than the one stipulated.

it is clear that Jesus is presupposing that there are other sins that are forgiven after death: which is one of the tenets of purgatory: forgiveness for and temporal punishment of sins after death for the person who is already saved and will inevitably make it to heaven in due course.

This again is a wrong inference for it never states this. You are reading into it what you want to fit in with your purgatory doctrine.

 

[PollyJetix]

You are far from getting it. ..
Purgatory pays for the "consequences" of our sin, not for the sin itself. If, when you die, you are totally full of grace and sin free, and all righteous and holy, you will go straight to heaven. But lets be real. Not many of us are that holy.

You aren't getting what I'm saying.
Look at Romans 7:17-20
One who is born again (do you understand how to be born again, as a life-changing experience?)
One who is born again is already completely holy... in the REAL PERSON--the spirit of the person.
It is no longer I that does the sin.
The real me does not sin. Because the real me loves God.

It's the external "body of this death" that sins. It's not me. It's IT.

Once that crucial identity of "I am in Christ!" is established,
then we realize that when we die, there is nothing left of that Thing that pulled us down.

There's nothing left of that Thing to go to purgatory, after we die.
If we are in Christ.

We struggle with the Thing as long as we live in these bodies.

But if we become filled with the Spirit of God after we become born again... then we have a new ball game. That's when we obtain the power to live right. That's when the power of the spiritually dead Thing is overpowered by LIFE.

 

[The Times]

You aren't getting what I'm saying.
Look at Romans 7:17-20
One who is born again (do you understand how to be born again, as a life-changing experience?)
One who is born again is already completely holy... in the REAL PERSON--the spirit of the person.
It is no longer I that does the sin.
The real me does not sin. Because the real me loves God.

It's the external "body of this death" that sins. It's not me. It's IT.

Once that crucial identity of "I am in Christ!" is established,
then we realize that when we die, there is nothing left of that Thing that pulled us down.

There's nothing left of that Thing to go to purgatory, after we die.
If we are in Christ.

We struggle with the Thing as long as we live in these bodies.

But if we become filled with the Spirit of God after we become born again... then we have a new ball game. That's when we obtain the power to live right. That's when the power of the spiritually dead Thing is overpowered by LIFE.

6So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer.17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sinb for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Purgatory doctrine can be rewritten as follows.....

that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through purgatory.

If we consider purgatory as scriptural then we ought not think that God has reconciled the world to himself in Christ, because he still counts people’s sins against them and requires for them to make reparations for the broken widows that is sins that have been piling on, with notwithstanding the redemptive works of the cross.

We must then reject the purgatory doctrine as we ought not imply that God has given us a false promise, because the reparation burden still stands even after we die, to be sent directly to purgatory after life prison colony.

 

[kepha31]

I put a funny feedback to your following comments as I will endure to explain.....
The work and application of redemption is complete at the cross of Christ.
Why?

No, I said the application is a different matter, you are collapsing work and redemption into one.

Because, the sinless deity was the one who not only died on the cross on all our behalves as his devine works, but he also went down to Shoel in paradise to finish the application of that entire redemptive process from his life, death, Shoel/Purgatory to his resurrection.

That is not what I said either.

Jesus Christ in Shoel/Paradise, that is three days in the belly of the earth and on everyone's account had repayed for all sins, past, present and future as he is the only lamb found worthy to bring restitution for the effects of sins in one day. A complete transaction occured when Christ was crucified, went to paradise/Shoel and arose.

He paid for our sins, but He did not pay the consequences of our sins. On earth we call it restitution. If a bank robber gets caught, does the judge let him keep the money? No, he has to give it back. Restitution and purgatory are closely related. In your theology, he gets to keep the money because Jesus paid it. If I break your window I can repent til the cows come home but if I don't fix the window my repenting is meaningless. Jesus doesn't pay for the window. I do. What I don't pay in this life (for all the metaphorical windows in my life I never fixed) I will pay in the next.

Why does it need to be a complete transaction involving both the redemptive works and the application of redemption?

Again, you are collapsing two different concepts into one.

Before I answer this pertinent question in the next quoted comment reply, I will quote old testament scripture to prove that God said so......

9See, the stone I have set in front of Joshua! There are seven eyes on that one stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it,’ says the Lord Almighty, ‘and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day.

10“ ‘In that day each of you will invite your neighbor to sit under your vine and fig tree,’ declares the Lord Almighty." (Zech 3-9-10)

None of these verses have anything to do with purgatory, and you are using them to rob God of His justice. His mercy and His justice meet with purgatory.

The sins are restituted by Jesus Christ, because with restitution follows the verse that each faithfill in Christ will sit under Christ, the vine tree. This means that the transaction is complete and everything is paid for by Jesus and all we need to do, is to enjoy Christ's fruits. to make reconciliation for iniquity/sin

Purgatory is not about paying the penalty of sin. Jesus on the Cross pays the penalty of our sin -- which is death. Those in purgatory are not in spiritual death; they are all headed to heaven. Purgatory is about cleansing wood, hay and straw, metaphors that Paul used in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 , verses that many seem to run from.

Restitution goes hand in hand with reconciliation and Daniel 9:24 states that the Messiah is the one who reconciled us to God the Father.

Reconciliation with the Father may or may not include purification. Nobody gets into heaven if they are not 100% purified. I've read your scriptures, have you read mine?

If this is true, then we must deny that Jesus made reconciliation for our sins when he was three days in the belly of the earth. We must therefore claim falsely that we need to by our MERIT and in the afterlife reconcile ourselves to God the Father, through punitive punishment in an afterlife penal prison. This would be in complete disharmoney with Zech 3:9-10.

No commentary, Protestant or Catholic, says what you are forcing Zech 3:9-10 to say, and what else you say is a load of nonsense. You have misinterpreted every thing I said, ignored every verse I posted. Purgatory is about purification, it has nothing to do with merit.

You have made an analogy that the window is still broken as far as the damage of sin still remains to be paid for right?

No analogy is perfect.

This is the only conclusion that one can make from your statement.
Let us say who is it that we are paying for the broken window?

The one who owns the window, especially if its cold outside.

God the Father, because it is written we have sinned against the righteous God and have fallen short of his glory (Romans 3:23)

You are messing up an analogy with foolishness.

So this is about owing God back for the broken window in the form of reparation. Once we repay God whom we sinned against, then we have made full reparation and now and only now can we be reconciled to God the Father, to enter his heavenly house, right?

You didn't get it.
if I throw a rock through your window I have committed a sin. What part of "your window" don't you understand? Please go back to the original post.

You would now agree that Purgatory is therefore anti scriptural and needs to be immediately removed as a Church doctrine right?

The doctrine of purgatory, in it's seedling form, goes back to Jesus and the Apostles, and developed by the Apostolic Fathers, as I have posted. Denial of purgatory started in the 16th century and is a false tradition of men. Faith alone, if "faith" is divorced from hope and charity, is another false tradition of men. It was invented to usurp the authority of the Church to bind and loose. especially as it pertains to purgatory. The false doctrine of faith alone meant purgatory was no longer necessary. God was no longer a God of mercy and justice but a celestial marshmallow.

Jesus not only worked out our redemptive process within the salvation plan of God through his sinless lamb, but he also fully restituted and paid for the damage, that is all the multitude of sins past, present and future. It is through the living vine according to what is written in Zechariah 3:10 that we enjoy the relationship we have with God, because we whilst we live and breath, we know that we have been fully reconciled to God the Father through the compete transaction made by the Son at the cross at calvary and in three days of the belly of the earth.

That's what makes purgatory possible. Blind prejudice prevents you from seeing it. Again you abuse Ze. 3:10 here is a link for multi denominational commentaries.

Who on earth would live in peace and comfort today under the living vine Jesus Christ, if deep in our hearts we believe that we need to still pay God for the broken windows and that we are not free yet until we make that payment after we die.

That is a misrepresentation of everything I posted.

The purgatory doctrine is preposterous and results in disharmoney, brings discomfort, having the thought that something still is hanging on one's shoulders, that we are not free from, because we still need to pay for the broken windows, that are the sins reparation.

Just the opposite. The reality of purgatory, even though I am not perfect, assures me of entrance to heaven. Your "assurance of salvation" was invented by John Calvin, is not biblical and not rooted in Church history. It's another false tradition of men.

Again this doctrine is preposterous indeed.

None are so blind as those who refuse to see.

In this regard we are not free and Christ hasn't made reparations and we are still not reconciled to God the Father because a debt is still hanging on our heads that we need to pay for after death.

Now you are being ridiculous. I never so much as implied that lunacy.

This doesn't apply to other sins other than the one stipulated.
This again is a wrong inference for it never states this. You are reading into it what you want to fit in with your purgatory doctrine.

Do you mean the numerous scripture proofs you avoided?

 

[mindlight]

I don't see the idea of purgatory in the Scriptures.

It seems to me to be an invention of humans who wanted to make a way for sinful people to get to heaven, bypassing the work of the Cross.

Thus, the idea of purgatory is not only non-Biblical, but ANTI-Christ.

If we can add to the work of Christ, by paying for "some" of our sins in purgatory,
then why can we not pay for all of them, eventually, in hellfire, and at some future point in eternity, escape hell?

Add to this, the idea of canonization of saints.
The Scriptures imply not at all, that some Christians who have died have achieved a higher "sainthood" (by going straight to heaven, and skipping purgatory) than those of us who are in Christ, here on earth.

The Bible calls all Christians, saints.

The ideas of canonized saints and purgatory are interdependent, and I can find no support for either in the Scriptures.

What say you?

Must admit there does not seem to be any scriptural support for purgatory. But it is one of those ideas I kind of wish was true. Because there are people who have died that I know who I want to see get to heaven. They had moments of goodness in their life but never confessed Christ. Purgatory would be a way in which I could conceive of these people coming to salvation. It is not as final as hell and offers the possibility that after this life people could still find their way to God. But think the scriptures are clear - a man lives once and then faces judgment.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I don't see the idea of purgatory in the Scriptures.

It seems to me to be an invention of humans who wanted to make a way for sinful people to get to heaven, bypassing the work of the Cross.

Thus, the idea of purgatory is not only non-Biblical, but ANTI-Christ.

If we can add to the work of Christ, by paying for "some" of our sins in purgatory,
then why can we not pay for all of them, eventually, in hellfire, and at some future point in eternity, escape hell?

Add to this, the idea of canonization of saints.
The Scriptures imply not at all, that some Christians who have died have achieved a higher "sainthood" (by going straight to heaven, and skipping purgatory) than those of us who are in Christ, here on earth.

The Bible calls all Christians, saints.

The ideas of canonized saints and purgatory are interdependent, and I can find no support for either in the Scriptures.

What say you?

I never heard of Purgatory.

What is it?

 

[The Times]

No, I said the application is a different matter, you are collapsing work and redemption into one.

Because they are one through Jesus Christ the lamb of God.

That is not what I said either

It is what you said. Do you want to retract what you stated.

He paid for our sins, but He did not pay the consequences of our sins. On earth we call it restitution. If a bank robber gets caught, does the judge let him keep the money? No, he has to give it back. Restitution and purgatory are closely related. In your theology, he gets to keep the money because Jesus paid it. If I break your window I can repent til the cows come home but if I don't fix the window my repenting is meaningless. Jesus doesn't pay for the window. I do. What I don't pay in this life (for all the metaphorical windows in

This is why Paul states that we are dead to the world and we consider ourselves crucified with him. We are not paying the consequence of sin for there are no set scales or set measurements for doing so. These practices are for those who mind the matters of the flesh.

Again, you are collapsing two different concepts into one.

No I am certainly not!

None of these verses have anything to do with purgatory, and you are using them to rob God of His justice. His mercy and His justice meet with purgatory.

They all have to do with God making the reparation in full for all sins past, present and future. If we contrive a purgatory theory in our minds, that is where the robbery is taking place.

Purgatory is not about paying the penalty of sin. Jesus on the Cross pays the penalty of our sin -- which is death. Those in purgatory are not in spiritual death; they are all headed to heaven. Purgatory is about cleansing wood, hay and straw, metaphors that Paul used in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 , verses that many seem to run from.

Again purgatory is about minding things of the flesh and has no application of faith in Christ Jesus. Purgatory is a works based restitution, which appeals to matters of the flesh, the purging of flesh.

Reconciliation with the Father may or may not include purification. Nobody gets into heaven if they are not 100% purified. I've read your scriptures, have you read mine?

Perfection is not determined by works, rather by faith in Christ Jesus. Which is why Jesus said to the thief from this day you will be in paradise.

No commentary, Protestant or Catholic, says what you are forcing Zech 3:9-10 to say, and what else you say is a load of nonsense. You have misinterpreted every thing I said, ignored every verse I posted. Purgatory is about purification, it has nothing to do with merit.

I believe that I have answered you succinctly and honestly.

No analogy is perfect.

You are back peddling, but thanks for doing so.

The one who owns the window, especially if its cold outside.

God doesn't require reparation for your past, present and future sins, he has written them all off, which is why a Christian like you and I considers ourselves dead to the flesh and crucified with the Lord.

You are messing up an analogy with foolishness.

I don't think so!

You didn't get it.
if I throw a rock through your window I have committed a sin. What part of "your window" don't you understand? Please go back to the original post.

We are breaking God's window when we sin and reparation are needed to be made to God. Fortunately for you and I God doesn't require us to be purged through suffering to make restitution and reparation for the broken windows. This is why Jesus was the restitution, so that we are pardoned from the letter of the law. You can not apply the law to establish a cost for restitution anymore, because it is no longer applicable and God doesn't require it from you or me.

The doctrine of purgatory, in it's seedling form, goes back to Jesus and the Apostles, and developed by the Apostolic Fathers, as I have posted. Denial of purgatory started in the 16th century and is a false tradition of men. Faith alone, if "faith" is divorced from hope and charity, is another false tradition of men. It was invented to usurp the authority of the Church to bind and loose. especially as it pertains to purgatory. The false doctrine of faith alone meant purgatory was no longer necessary. God was no longer a God of mercy and justice but a celestial marshmallow.

On the contrary the church never believed in this doctrine and it would be detrimental to grace, if justice is incorporated into the equation, which means that those in Christ are still under the law of Moses and the justice arm and wrath of God still has a part in the salvation equation. Scripture clearly emphasis that grace was fully imparted, which pardoned us from the justice arm of God. If we were even 0.00001% justice arm of God, then I can guareentee 100% that no one will be saved purgatory or no purgatory.

That's what makes purgatory possible. Blind prejudice prevents you from seeing it. Again you abuse Ze. 3:10 here is a link for multi denominational commentaries.

Grace and 100% reconciliating works of Christ pardons us from the curse of the law, the justice arm of God. This is why Satan as the prosecutor was forever silenced because the justice arm of God never comes into play alongside of Grace.

That is a misrepresentation of everything I posted.

I don't think so. I exposed you to your own exposition.

Just the opposite. The reality of purgatory, even though I am not perfect, assures me of entrance to heaven. Your "assurance of salvation" was invented by John Calvin, is not biblical and not rooted in Church history. It's another false tradition of men.

So purgatory is your assurance of the promise. So we can rewrite that the promise was given by the Spirit through faith in Christ to the promise was given by the Spirit through faith in purgarory. Faith has us focused on Jesus and purgatory has us focussed on a penal prison place, with the emphasis of family and friends shortening our time by reparation made on our behalves by them. When a doctrine like Purgatory takes away the focus from Jesus, it most certainly is a tradition of men and this is how we know it to be.

None are so blind as those who refuse to see.

We become blind when we put our assurance on an inanimate place like purgatory and to rely on family and friends to pay penance on our behalves in order to shorten our captivity. I certainly would call this a tradition of men.

Now you are being ridiculous. I never so much as implied that lunacy.

Yes, you did. If you want to retract your statement I am fine with that.

Do you mean the numerous scripture proofs you avoided?

I don't need to go through the entire Bible, but just to point out that you collapsed the context on the sin against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven in this life or the afterlife, to somehow being present in an afterlife forgiveness process like purgatory for other sins. I pointed out that you had put words in the Lord's mouth that he never implied and this would suggest to any sensible person the desperation to hold onto a doctrine by faith, more so than letting it go and by placing all your focus on Jesus Christ and his truth and grace.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

God's time is not our time; the evolution of plants and animals due to adapting to changing surroundings takes a great deal of time; yet God created man in only a single day with a single act. Your time argument holds no water; as I said before, the Good Thief was with Christ "today" i.e. the same day that he died.

Yes, but what did the "Good Thief" experience when he came into the fullness of God's presence? What part of his nature was in need of change to bring him into the fullness of union with Christ?

I do agree with your statement regarding forensic justification; as we Lutherans would say: we are justified by faith, period, but sanctification is an ongoing process which begins at our baptism and ends with our last breath.

Was forensic justification more of Calvin's Institutes than of Luther's writings?

Indeed it was. Regarding the thief, repentance and faith; he confessed both on the cross.

 

[The Times]

When we become prisoners of Christ he becomes our passover lamb of God's justice arm and so the curse of the law no longer applies, but grace takes over, where we find ourselves pardoned from the letter of the law that previously required restitution/reparation for the sins committed past, present and future.

If a place like purgatory existed, then we still are under the justice arm of God and we need to make reparations for sins outside of Christ's grace. In this regard God is adamant that he still requires some form of punitive punishment as literal pay back outside of the faith and protection of our passover lamb. So in this regard purgatory rejects the lamb of God as being our passover lamb, because God still has it in for us and wants more from us and so Jesus can not get us out of this restitution demand and can not protect us.

You very well know that the passover lamb protects us from any restitution/reparations.

After all what would God want from us in terms of punishment over time that will restitute our sins outside of the protection of the passover lamb. I have clearly have highlighted that Purgatory is a man made doctrine that robs people of their hope in Christ by placing their hope outside of Christ to a man made institution, where the religious institution reduces the time in purgatory by the issuing of indulgences.

Vatican offers 'time off purgatory' to followers of Pope Francis tweets

In previous medieval times it was a man made business that brought much needed funds used to build infrustructure. Who exactly is a person paying, when hoping to get indulgences, man or God? Come on guys let's be honest and speak the truth.

Historically the religious institution has benefited financially from this purgatory doctrine. Did the people sin against the religious institution to pay restitution?

Hmmmmmm........

This is a man made doctrine good for business and nothing to do with grace granted from the passover lamb of God.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

You are referring to the natural world. Faith however looks at the eternal things which are hidden. Colossians 3 says we have already risen, and our life is hidden with Christ, in God, in heaven above.

there is a hidden realm, and paul says we are already in it. He says we are already risen with Christ.

It is difficult to have a meaningful discussion when our minds only let us look at things from one perspective. You missed the whole point of my post; that even those who are closest to God can fall away because the stain of original sin causes us to rebel against God. The devil does not contend over the souls of the lost; only the faithful, and is ever tempting and trying to entice us away from God, and as a result we miss the mark each and every day.

I believe firmly that the concept of eternal salvation; once saved, always saved, it one of the mightiest weapons the devil has to deceive mankind into thinking their spiritual journey is complete and that they are fully sanctified, even before entering the gates of paradise.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
The idea that we need to have more cleansing after we die, above and beyond what the Blood of Christ provided for us, by suffering in fires of purgatory, flies in the face of what Christ has provided for us.

Furthermore,
pro-purgatory-ists are saying that we are all carnal, and we just can't help it, even if we are born again.
Therefore, we need to have all that stuff cleaned off, by purgatory, to be made fit to stand in His presence.
Hogwash.

Romans 6:10-12


Because there are consequences for this:
Romans 8:7-13


You can't be carnal and live after the flesh, and live.
Not even through the fires of "purgatory."
There's no route by which you can live after your fleshly, carnal nature, and get to heaven.
You have to die to that carnal nature.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
The idea that we need to have more cleansing after we die, above and beyond what the Blood of Christ provided for us, by suffering in fires of purgatory, flies in the face of what Christ has provided for us.

No, hogwash right back at you, darlin'. Hebrews 10 (actually 7-10) is speaking of Christ's work as the Great High Priest. To understand it properly, you have to go back to the OT and to the specific work of the high priest before God, which was to offer Yom Kippur (Lev. 16). Yom Kippur is not about our personal sins or the changing of our nature. It is about the once a year sacrifice for the Church, the congregation of God, which at that time was national Israel.

Hebrews 7-10 is Paul showing how Jesus as the Great High Priest has reunited mankind to God as Great High Priest offering His own precious Blood as the eternal Yom Kippur in the "tabernacle not made with hands" in the heavenlies. As Paul stated in Romans 5:18, the sacrifice of Christ has saved and sanctified all to God. Now we are to enter into that sanctification and work out our salvation "with fear and trembling" as St. Paul said. No idea in his writings anywhere of "Jesus paid it all and therefore I am free to enter heaven now."

Furthermore,pro-purgatory-ists are saying that we are all carnal, and we just can't help it, even if we are born again. Therefore, we need to have all that stuff cleaned off, by purgatory, to be made fit to stand in His presence.

Of course we do. Why do you think that Christ gave to the Apostles the authority to hear and forgive sins if we are all "once-for-all" cleaned and have no further need of such?

You can't be carnal and live after the flesh, and live.
Not even through the fires of "purgatory."
There's no route by which you can live after your fleshly, carnal nature, and get to heaven.
You have to die to that carnal nature.

That's exactly what I have been saying. Purgation after death is simply the final dying to the carnal nature. Go back and read my posts. It's all about the change in our natures.

Exactly, and if we were so squeaky clean to start with, we would already be in paradise, and without that sinful nature we would be like Adam and Eve before the fall; never having to deal with physical death.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Nope.

That is Augustine's legal definition which took off during the Medieval times. Doesn't fly in the East at all. The Cross has restored mankind to God completely, and if there is such a thing as a legal "debt" (the broken window) that is covered also. This is why in Eastern Catholic churches, such as the Melkite Church, after you go to Confession and are done, the priest gives no penance.

In the East, it is about the healing of the soul, not about the legal consequences of the action. Any legality was taken care of by the Cross, and if I remember correctly, this was Luther's argument against Indulgences (sheeeesh, look at me quoting the heretic Luther!). We do not see any legal basis in the work of the Sacraments at all, from baptism onward. All of it is about healing the soul, not paying off some debt that we owe.

Yes, the Sacraments are a means of grace; they are not something that we do for us, but they are what God does for us; and only about what God does for us!

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

No, this is the BIBLICAL view of salvation.
It's the view of Pentecostals.

We do not rely on purgatory to get our souls healed after we die.
That's provided in the Cross, according to Isaiah 53.

We do not rely on purgatory to subdue our iniquities.
That's the job of the Holy Ghost, as Romans 8:11 tells us.
The Spirit of He-Who-raised-up-Christ quickens our mortal bodies (which even after Christ comes to dwell in us, are dead!) so we can live our earthly lives in accordance with His will.

While you are trying to understand, let me say again, it is not a place or a prison sentence that must be paid, it is a process that not only covers our iniquity, but removes all trace of it. This is the point where we are washed white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

[The Times]

If we sin, we sin against God.

When we become prisoners of Christ he becomes our passover lamb of God's justice arm and so the curse of the law no longer applies, but grace takes over, where we find ourselves pardoned from the letter of the law that previously required restitution/reparation for the sins committed past, present and future.

If a place like purgatory existed, then we still are under the justice arm of God and we need to make reparations for sins outside of Christ's grace. In this regard God is adamant that he still requires some form of punitive punishment as literal pay back outside of the faith and protection of our passover lamb. So in this regard purgatory rejects the lamb of God as being our passover lamb, because God still has it in for us and wants more from us and so Jesus can not get us out of this restitution demand and can not protect us.

You very well know that the passover lamb protects us from any restitution/reparations.

After all what would God want from us in terms of punishment over time that will restitute our sins outside of the protection of the passover lamb. I have clearly have highlighted that Purgatory is a man made doctrine that robs people of their hope in Christ by placing their hope outside of Christ to a man made institution, where the religious institution reduces the time in purgatory by the issuing of indulgences.

Vatican offers 'time off purgatory' to followers of Pope Francis tweets

In previous medieval times it was a man made business that brought much needed funds used to build infrustructure. Who exactly is a person paying, when hoping to get indulgences, man or God? Come on guys let's be honest and speak the truth.

Historically the religious institution has benefited financially from this purgatory doctrine. Did the people sin against the religious institution to pay restitution?

Hmmmmmm........

This is a man made doctrine good for business and nothing to do with grace granted from the passover lamb of God.

Either we are to believe in a passover lamb or we don't.

After all when we sin we sin against God. How do we pay back God as a consequence, if people are saying we need to pay back?

We pay by sending a tweet to the pope

So I am thinking of people rushing to tweet the pope daily a thousand times.

Vatican offers 'time off purgatory' to followers of Pope Francis tweets

To believe that a tweet will grant me indulgences and a reduction of time in purgatory is a mockery of the grace and truth of Christ.

 

[Vicomte13]

Possibly because Gehenna refers to Hell and not Purgatory.

It does not. Hell does not appear in the Scriptures at all. It is a Scandinavian term.

What DOES appear in the Scriptures is Sheol/Hades - the underworld, where a chasm separates Gehenna from Gan Eden/Paradise.

Gehenna is a parched place of torment, where the unforgiven (because they were not forgiving) are imprisoned "until the last penny is paid". Not forever, for everybody is resurrected at the end of the world, and then proceeds into the City of God (not Heaven - nobody ever "goes to Heaven" - not before the end - Gan Eden/Paradise, where Abraham is found, is the Garden, not the sky) - and not after judgment either: the City of God comes to earth - OR they fail judgment and are thrown into the Lake of Fire for complete destruction - the Second Death. If you want to call the Lake of Fire "Hell" you may, but it is not the same thing as Gehenna. There's no "until" in the Lake of Fire after the end, there is the second death.

But now, before the end, there is Gehenna, and there is Paradise, and Gehenna is a place "until the last penny is paid", according to Jesus, and anyplace "until" is not forever.

That's what's actually IN the Scripture. Christian theology has departed significantly from that revealed information and inserted an eternal Hell before final judgment. Scripture has none. Nor is Scripture particularly clear that the Lake of Fire is eternal suffering for the human who fails judgment. For the Devil, yes, but for the human, it is the second death - whose exact nature is not described. It COULD be writhing forever in flames, but utter destruction of body and spirit - complete dissolution in the flames - is an equally valid reading.

Everything further in the Christian theology is adding to the text. You can do that if you want to. I will not. I won't even add the Scandinavian word "Hell", as it is superfluous and uneccessary. There is Sheol/Hades, composed of Gehenna and Paradise, and there is the City of God and the Lake of Fire. That is what is revealed. And after death, the prison of the unforgiving (and therefore unforgiven) sinner is described by Jesus as an "until" place, not a "forever" place.

I go with what HE said, and therefore I ignore the accreted tradition of Scandinavian "Hell" and "going to Heaven", neither of which are revealed, or present in Scripture at all. If one wants to call the Lake of Fire "Hell", that's fine, but the contours of Hell are not as the tradition describes, but as John described in his Revelation.

And Gehenna is a place "until the last penny is paid", which is not Scandinavian or Christian Hell either. That's why, just as the word "Hell" can be applied to the Lake of Fire, the word "Purgatory" can be applied to Gehenna. Since the latter seems to give people the hives, for the sake of conversation I am willing to just use "Gehenna" and leave off the Latin equivalent. But I'm not then willing to allow my interlocutor to import the Scandinavian word "Hell", with the concepts that come with it, unless he ties it to the Lake of Fire. Gehenna and the Lake of Fire are not the same place. They serve two different functions. No rich man will be calling across the black chasm out of the Lake of Fire, because that is after the end, after final judgment, and he'll be dead, burnt up in the flames, which was clearly not the case in Gehenna.

Gehenna fits Jesus' parables of the rich man and of the unforgiving servant, and also happens to fit Jewish belief. The Jews know that Gehenna - their "Hell" - is purgatorial, not Lake-of-Fire utter destruction.

But we've been over this ground before. What's the point? Christians have added a great deal of their own tradition on top of the actual Scriptures, just as the Jews did, and get stubborn about it.

For my part, I've said a couple of time what the Scriptures actually SAY, and I'm tired of Christian bickering - it's useless to me - so I am signing off this thread now. Believe as you would. If you actually pick up your Bible and carefully read through it all, cover to cover, focusing on what little is actually revealed about the afterlife in the Old Testament (you will find only references to Sheol until 1 Maccabbees, then you will find the efficacity of prayers for the dead). In the New Testament, in two parables of Jesus you find the function and operation of Gehenna, and in the Revelation you see The End, with the City of God descending, and the Lake of Fire and utter destruction after failed judgment.
It's all there. "Hell" - generic Christian Hell is not there. The purgatorial nature of Gehenna IS there, in Jesus parable of the unforgiving servant, and in the efficacity of the prayers for the dead in 1 Maccabbees.

If you don't want to accept that or believe it, don't. It's not skin off my nose. But it IS what is written there, not Scandinavian and Christian "Hell" and "going to Heaven". The only people who "go to Heaven" in the Scriptures are Enoch (maybe), Elijah and Jesus, in the sense that they are taken up by God into the sky. We are not taken up into the sky at death or at the end of the world. At death, we go into the underworld, which is composed of Gehenna, black chasm/abyss/Tartarus, and Paradise, where Abraham is with his bosom. At the end of the world the City comes OUT of Heaven, we don't go up INTO Heaven.
That's what the text SAYS.

But you can read it for yourself. I'm out. Not interested in bickering with Christians. I find it tiresome and useless. Believe what you want to believe. The Book will nevertheless continue to say what it actually SAYS, and unless you adopt what it actually SAYS, you'll be believing something different from what it says. Christian Tradition differs from what is written in the Book.

 

[Greyy]

No, this is the BIBLICAL view of salvation.
It's the view of Pentecostals.

We do not rely on purgatory to get our souls healed after we die.
That's provided in the Cross, according to Isaiah 53.

We do not rely on purgatory to subdue our iniquities.
That's the job of the Holy Ghost, as Romans 8:11 tells us.
The Spirit of He-Who-raised-up-Christ quickens our mortal bodies (which even after Christ comes to dwell in us, are dead!) so we can live our earthly lives in accordance with His will.

It is apparent you aren't discussing purgatory, but the weird nonsense anti-Catholics make up about what Catholics believe about purgatory.

Purgatory is the removal of all inclination and affliation with sin between the moments before death, and acceptance into Heaven. Any person, who believes they do not sin, or have any inclination to sin, is lying to himself.

Anyone who blames their sin on their flesh, as if they have no control over their actions and sins, is deceiving themselves. There is no hope for anyone that does not take responsibility for their actions. Every sin, no matter how small, is the responsibility of the immortal soul in control of the flesh which sins.

When you die, you must take responsibility for your actions. Your contradictory inclination to sin will be removed from you.

There is no other way to describe what happens, but as a purge, a purgatory. No one is "purged" through their own merits or works. One is only purged of an incliation to sin by the works of Christ. One can never purge themselves of sin. Christ only offers them the opporunity to purge themselves, so that they may enter heaven.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

When you die, you must take responsibility for your actions.

As
shown all through God's Word, people can only deal with their responsibility, turn to God, repent of their sin, be cleansed by the BLOOD OF THE LAMB, God's Way,
according to God's Word.

ONLY before they die. By the time they die, it is final. Too late.