Purgatory: Scriptural or not... or worse?

[paul becke]

Is ‘purgatory’ Biblical?

Jesus spoke very clearly of only two choices in the afterlife in Luke 16:19-31. There we find that a certain rich man had died as an unbeliever and was "in torment" (Luke 16:23). Jesus made it clear that the afterlife offers two options, and that both heaven and hell are eternal.

Matthew 7:13-14 also notes, "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few." Again, only two options are provided. There is no third option.

Purgatory is an extra-biblical teaching developed beyond what Jesus and the apostles presented in the Bible. As such, it lacks biblical authority and is to be rejected. While the idea of a "middle ground" may find historical support in other places or seem sensible to many, the fact is that it is not supported by the Bible—the very book that forms the basis for Christian belief. Believers are not called to offer prayers or works on behalf of the dead. The dead's eternity has already been decided. Instead, we must seek to grow in Christ and share Him with others.

Is praying to ‘canonized saints’ Biblical?

The Greek word for saints is an interesting one. It is the word “hagios” and means “most holy thing” so a saint is a holy person but wait, aren’t all men sinners, even after they are saved? Yes, that’s true but God sees us as having Jesus own righteousness because Christ became sin for us so that when the Father now sees us, He sees us as having the righteousness of Jesus Christ (2 Cor 5:21). A saint is anyone who has been saved and then they are set apart for holy use.

Praying to Mary and other dead saints is not biblical and praying to anyone other than God is idolatry. Nowhere in Scripture does it say pray to dead saints. Nowhere in Scripture does it say ask dead saints to pray for you. Those who have died in the Lord have "ceased from their labor." They have already "finished the race." (see Rev 14:13 and 2 Tim 4:7). Jesus told us clearly who can pray with us. He said in Matthew 18:19, "Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven." Notice the important clause "on earth." The people who pray together must be "on earth." This definitely rules out those who have left this earth.

When Jesus taught the disciples to pray, He never encourages the disciples to ask Abraham or Moses or Noah to pray for them. Asking the deceased to pray for us is unheard of in the Bible, and contradicts the teaching of the Bible.

Timothy 2:5 There is one God. There is also one mediator between God and human beings—a human, the Messiah Jesus.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

Philippians 4:6-7 - Be careful for nothing; but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

What about the angel in Revelations offering up the prayers of the sants from his thurifer ?

 

[W2L]

What about the angel in Revelations offering up the prayers of the sants from his thurifer ?

I notice that no one prayed to the saints themselves, for intercession.

 

[paul becke]

But for the umpteenth time, NO ONE has been arguing for that view. It's meaningless to this conversation.


Everyone does, Paul.

I am relieved to hear it, Albion. I could have sworn some youngsters on here were actually boasting along those lines ! It's good to know they would be a tiny minority.

 

[paul becke]

I notice that no one prayed to the saints themselves, for intercession.

One answer at a time, please. It's the mediation that's being questioned, primarily.

 

[Vicomte13]

No, my logic is the Orthodox teaching of the Holy Orthodox Church, which goes back to the Apostles. If I understand correctly, the Roman idea of Purgatory appeared somewhere around the Medieval times.

The place where purgation occurs, the prison where the pennies are paid, is called Gehenna by Jesus. You don't like to hear Gehenna latinized into "Purgatory". Ok. I'm fine with sticking with "Gehenna". Same thing, so why struggle over translations among languages?

 

[W2L]

One answer at a time, please. It's the mediation that's being questioned, primarily.

ok, no problem

 

[Albion]

The place where purgation occurs, the prison where the pennies are paid, is called Gehenna by Jesus. You don't like to hear Gehenna latinized into "Purgatory". Ok. I'm fine with sticking with "Gehenna". Same thing, so why struggle over translations among languages?

Possibly because Gehenna refers to Hell and not Purgatory.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I wouldn't be interested in pushing it to someone not interested in NDEs

I don't know what NDEs is?

 

[PollyJetix]

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
The idea that we need to have more cleansing after we die, above and beyond what the Blood of Christ provided for us, by suffering in fires of purgatory, flies in the face of what Christ has provided for us.

Furthermore,
pro-purgatory-ists are saying that we are all carnal, and we just can't help it, even if we are born again.
Therefore, we need to have all that stuff cleaned off, by purgatory, to be made fit to stand in His presence.
Hogwash.

Romans 6:10-12

10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon (count) ye also yourselves to be dead (already!) indeed (completely!) unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Because there are consequences for this:
Romans 8:7-13

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (sounds like Romans 7 again!)

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead (Who's He?) dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For (because!) if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die (not just go to purgatory!): but IF ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, (only then!) ye shall live.

You can't be carnal and live after the flesh, and live.
Not even through the fires of "purgatory."
There's no route by which you can live after your fleshly, carnal nature, and get to heaven.
You have to die to that carnal nature.

 

[Light of the East]

I don't know what NDEs is?

Near Death Experience

 

[Kenny'sID]

Or could she just being firing salvos at what she TOTALLY MISUNDERSTANDS what the doctrine of Purgatory means.

I think she's asking...looking for reason to believe it's there or not.

That said, why don't you explain what you feel she misunderstands?

 

[PollyJetix]

I don't know what NDEs is?

Near Death Experiences.
I don't know how this has anything to do with the conversation. Because Satan is a liar. He would love to give a rank sinner, a NDE of all sweetness and light after death, just to have him go tell multitudes his false experience. Which Satan has done multiple times.

Which is why NDE's should never be taken as gospel truth.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I wouldn't be interested in pushing it to someone not interested in NDEs, but I have to ask you, since you responded, were you not impressed by the deeply-emotional body language of, for instance, the missionary pilot, Dale Black, Kenny ? There is a better, full-length coverage of the whole interview somewhere on YouTube, but also other interviews with him. Anyway, each one to his own. No sense in trying to be impressed by them against your natural inclination.

That which you replied to was about Soul Sleep, not NDS's

 

[Light of the East]

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
The idea that we need to have more cleansing after we die, above and beyond what the Blood of Christ provided for us, by suffering in fires of purgatory, flies in the face of what Christ has provided for us.

No, hogwash right back at you, darlin'. Hebrews 10 (actually 7-10) is speaking of Christ's work as the Great High Priest. To understand it properly, you have to go back to the OT and to the specific work of the high priest before God, which was to offer Yom Kippur (Lev. 16). Yom Kippur is not about our personal sins or the changing of our nature. It is about the once a year sacrifice for the Church, the congregation of God, which at that time was national Israel.

Hebrews 7-10 is Paul showing how Jesus as the Great High Priest has reunited mankind to God as Great High Priest offering His own precious Blood as the eternal Yom Kippur in the "tabernacle not made with hands" in the heavenlies. As Paul stated in Romans 5:18, the sacrifice of Christ has saved and sanctified all to God. Now we are to enter into that sanctification and work out our salvation "with fear and trembling" as St. Paul said. No idea in his writings anywhere of "Jesus paid it all and therefore I am free to enter heaven now."

Furthermore,pro-purgatory-ists are saying that we are all carnal, and we just can't help it, even if we are born again. Therefore, we need to have all that stuff cleaned off, by purgatory, to be made fit to stand in His presence.

Of course we do. Why do you think that Christ gave to the Apostles the authority to hear and forgive sins if we are all "once-for-all" cleaned and have no further need of such?

You can't be carnal and live after the flesh, and live.
Not even through the fires of "purgatory."
There's no route by which you can live after your fleshly, carnal nature, and get to heaven.
You have to die to that carnal nature.

That's exactly what I have been saying. Purgation after death is simply the final dying to the carnal nature. Go back and read my posts. It's all about the change in our natures.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Which is why NDE's should never be taken as gospel truth.

I didn't even watch the video. Who knows who these people are? Even if sincere, the mind plays tricks, and I'm not saying it isn't possible, but who really knows the Bee S from anything that might be legit? Or basically what you are saying.

 

[PollyJetix]

(I said: )You can't be carnal and live after the flesh, and live.
Not even through the fires of "purgatory."
There's no route by which you can live after your fleshly, carnal nature, and get to heaven.
You have to die to that carnal nature.

(LOTE said: ) That's exactly what I have been saying. Purgation after death is simply the final dying to the carnal nature. Go back and read my posts. It's all about the change in our natures.

There is no Scripture that gives us the right to expect to shape up after death, if we have not chosen to die to our carnal natures in this life.
The Scripture (1 Corinthians 3) that speaks of works of wood, hay, and stubble, that will be burned up, are not talking about paying for our sins. It's talking about trying to build the Church of God with the wrong stuff. Faulty preaching, etc. Those who have done their best, but fell short of perfection in their ministry, will not be rejected on the basis of not understanding the Scriptures perfectly, or preaching imperfectly. They get into heaven. But they get no reward for their labor, because they labored mistakenly.

However, if anyone tries to build upon the foundation of Christ in a way that actually is destructive to the Body, him God will destroy.

That passage is not talking about every soul facing purgation after death.
The subject is building the church, versus tearing it down.
Those who build with the wrong materials, will suffer the loss of their rewards, but will not be lost themselves.
But those who refuse to build, but instead tear down the body of believers, by using their tongues wrongly, etc... those face not purgatory, but hell.

 

[Light of the East]

There is no Scripture that gives us the right to expect to shape up after death, if we have not chosen to die to our carnal natures in this life.
The Scripture (1 Corinthians 3) that speaks of works of wood, hay, and stubble, that will be burned up, are not talking about paying for our sins. It's talking about trying to build the Church of God with the wrong stuff. Faulty preaching, etc. Those who have done their best, but fell short of perfection in their ministry, will not be rejected on the basis of not understanding the Scriptures perfectly, or preaching imperfectly. They get into heaven. But they get no reward for their labor, because they labored mistakenly.

However, if anyone tries to build upon the foundation of Christ in a way that actually is destructive to the Body, him God will destroy.

That passage is not talking about every soul facing purgation after death.
The subject is building the church, versus tearing it down.
Those who build with the wrong materials, will suffer the loss of their rewards, but will not be lost themselves.
But those who refuse to build, but instead tear down the body of believers, by using their tongues wrongly, etc... those face not purgatory, but hell.

Kindly address the issue I said in the post you responded to: what about our natures? Do you think we have to have our very nature changed in order to be in the presence of God and participate in the love of the Trinity?

 

[W2L]

Kindly address the issue I said in the post you responded to: what about our natures? Do you think we have to have our very nature changed in order to be in the presence of God and participate in the love of the Trinity?

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Trust who
Instead of FAITH, money? ..... ha, not.
Instead of TRUTH, lies? ...... ha, not.
Instead of BIBLE, mythology? ..... ha, not.
The root,
the source,
the beginning of all lies is satan.

JESUS came to destroy the lies of satan, not to promote them.
This is still a battle going on every day.

JESUS wins.

 

[Light of the East]

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Says absolutely NOTHING about the new nature. But St. Paul does. He speaks of those who are "babes in Christ," meaning that we have to grow and mature in Christ. In other words, our nature has to be changed into His glorious likeness.