Purgatory? Current RCC standpoint?

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Jerrysch

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Purgatory dosent imply that what Christ did was not enough..People who are in purgatory are already saved...

The concept of purgatory is scriptural..what do you think when jesus talks about the unforgivable sin" he replys that you wont be forgivin in this life OR THE NEXT.. There are also references in macabees and wisdom, but martin luther threw those out in the trash can because he didnt agree with them..

On an offside note. Read up on people who have had NDEs(near death expereinces).. There is a wonderful book by a Doctor who recorded people he saved from death. Its called 'beyond deaths door' by Dr. Rawlings, who was a heart specialist surgeon(and ahtiest at the time)..and many of the NDEs talk about a middle ground or "grey area" . Its quite an interesting book. Dr. Maurice Rawlings became a devout Christian after peoples expereinces.


The unforgivible sin was a national sin which was committed by the Jewish leadership during the life of Messiah when they attributed his work to the chief of deamons. It is a sin which cannot be committed today in that Messiah is not physically present on the earth presenting himself as Messiah to ethnic Israel. It was unforgivable to that generation and resulted in the destruction of the Temple and the worldwide dispersion of those of ethnic Israel.
 
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Jerrysch

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Purgatory dosent imply that what Christ did was not enough..People who are in purgatory are already saved...

The concept of purgatory is scriptural..what do you think when jesus talks about the unforgivable sin" he replys that you wont be forgivin in this life OR THE NEXT.. There are also references in macabees and wisdom, but martin luther threw those out in the trash can because he didnt agree with them..

On an offside note. Read up on people who have had NDEs(near death expereinces).. There is a wonderful book by a Doctor who recorded people he saved from death. Its called 'beyond deaths door' by Dr. Rawlings, who was a heart specialist surgeon(and ahtiest at the time)..and many of the NDEs talk about a middle ground or "grey area" . Its quite an interesting book. Dr. Maurice Rawlings became a devout Christian after peoples expereinces.

There is a lot of things I don't agree with Martin Luther either. Where in Macabees?
 
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Jerrysch

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On an offside note. Read up on people who have had NDEs(near death expereinces).. There is a wonderful book by a Doctor who recorded people he saved from death. Its called 'beyond deaths door' by Dr. Rawlings, who was a heart specialist surgeon(and ahtiest at the time)..and many of the NDEs talk about a middle ground or "grey area" . Its quite an interesting book. Dr. Maurice Rawlings became a devout Christian after peoples expereinces.

Thanks for the sidebar:wave: . I look with a great deal of caution at these sort of experiences.
 
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reccanboy

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Well, we are in good company because Jesus never quoted from these works either:wave:



HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH, YES HE DID.

Read the entire chapter of Wisdom 2. It foreshadows Jesus's life.

Mary quoted from Sirach 10:14 in Luke 1:52, Elizabeth quotes from Judith 13:18 in Luke 1:42.

Besides, your argument is illogical, Jesus only quoted from about 5 old testament books, what about the rest of them?

Should I rip out Song of Songs because he didn't quote from it?
 
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Jerrysch

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HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH, YES HE DID.

Read the entire chapter of Wisdom 2. It foreshadows Jesus's life.

Mary quoted from Sirach 10:14 in Luke 1:52, Elizabeth quotes from Judith 13:18 in Luke 1:42.

Besides, your argument is illogical, Jesus only quoted from about 5 old testament books, what about the rest of them?

Should I rip out Song of Songs because he didn't quote from it?

So where did He?
 
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reccanboy

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So where did He?

Wisdom 2:16-20
He judges us debased; he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure. He calls blest the destiny of the just and boasts that God is his Father. Let us see whether his words be true; let us find out what will happen to him. For if the just one be the son of God, he will defend him and deliver him from the hand of his foes. With revilement and torture let us put him to the test that we may have proof of his gentleness and try his patience. Let us condemn him to a shameful death; for according to his own words, God will take care of him."

Familiar? If not, this discourse is over.
 
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Jerrysch

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Wisdom 2:16-20
He judges us debased; he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure. He calls blest the destiny of the just and boasts that God is his Father. Let us see whether his words be true; let us find out what will happen to him. For if the just one be the son of God, he will defend him and deliver him from the hand of his foes. With revilement and torture let us put him to the test that we may have proof of his gentleness and try his patience. Let us condemn him to a shameful death; for according to his own words, God will take care of him."

Familiar? If not, this discourse is over.

Where do we see Jesus quoting this "passage"?

You seem quick to run from this discussion?
 
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Renton405

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Wisdom 2:16-20
He judges us debased; he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure. He calls blest the destiny of the just and boasts that God is his Father. Let us see whether his words be true; let us find out what will happen to him. For if the just one be the son of God, he will defend him and deliver him from the hand of his foes. With revilement and torture let us put him to the test that we may have proof of his gentleness and try his patience. Let us condemn him to a shameful death; for according to his own words, God will take care of him."

Familiar? If not, this discourse is over.


A great foreshawdowing of what the phariesees did..a great verse.. :)

And when was Wisdom written?

Proof of purgatory is in the verse when Christ talks about the unforgivable sin.. You won't be forgivin in this life or the next.. this verse shows that there are sins that can be forgivin in a next life..


III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611
 
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