Purgatory? Current RCC standpoint?

[Protestante]

OK What is the current RCC standpoint on its doctrine of Purgatory?

Thanks

 

[sempervirens]

Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraphs 1030-1032
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.
1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin." From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.

 

[Protestante]

So do all Catholics believe this? Without trying to get into a debate, what is the basis of this belief/ when is it first mentioned in history?

Thanks

YBiC

 

[sempervirens]

3 of the Catechism's nearly 3000 paragraphs focus on it, so I think its something that is sometimes made a bigger deal by folks looking at the RCC rather than the faithful within it. A faithful Catholic does need to assent to what I quoted above - but all of the details - whether its a state or a process or what - is not defined. We just know that nothing impure shall enter heaven.

I like then Cardinal Ratzinger's explaination:


"Purgatory is not, as Tertullian thought, some kind of supra-worldly concentration camp where one is forced to undergo punishments in a more or less arbitrary fashion. Rather it is the inwardly necessary process of transformation in which a person becomes capable of Christ, capable of God [i.e., capable of full unity with Christ and God] and thus capable of unity with the whole communion of saints. Simply to look at people with any degree of realism at all is to grasp the necessity of such a process. It does not replace grace by works, but allows the former to achieve its full victory precisely as grace. What actually saves is the full assent of faith. But in most of us, that basic option is buried under a great deal of wood, hay and straw. Only with difficulty can it peer out from behind the latticework of an egoism we are powerless to pull down with our own hands. Man is the recipient of the divine mercy, yet this does not exonerate him from the need to be transformed. Encounter with the Lord is this transformation. It is the fire that burns away our dross and re-forms us to be vessels of eternal joy."

I found this link which looks like a decent apologetic on the subject:

http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/how2purg.htm

 

[Jerrysch]

So do all Catholics believe this? Without trying to get into a debate, what is the basis of this belief/ when is it first mentioned in history?

Thanks

YBiC

More importantly where in Scripture is this doctrine to be found.

 

[Protestante]

I think many admit that Purgatory is not in the bible (unless the reference to the 2 Maccabees quote, for those who consider it part of the bible, but thats a different issue being questioned elsewhere) besides the few references to suffering etc. However these are clearly talking of suffering on earth.

My problem with it is, not that it is even a prominent part of Catholic doctrine, but that it exists in it at all. Furthermore, Jesus was the biggest "fire and brimstone" preacher of them all, and thus, it should be safe to say that if it did exist, it would be high on the agenda for him.

Are there references to purgatory specifically before the Medieval times (besides Maccabees). Moreover, could you define the specific verses Catholics see as referring to Purgatory? Thanks

YBiC

 

[PassthePeace1]

I think many admit that Purgatory is not in the bible (unless the reference to the 2 Maccabees quote, for those who consider it part of the bible, but thats a different issue being questioned elsewhere) besides the few references to suffering etc. However these are clearly talking of suffering on earth.

My problem with it is, not that it is even a prominent part of Catholic doctrine, but that it exists in it at all. Furthermore, Jesus was the biggest "fire and brimstone" preacher of them all, and thus, it should be safe to say that if it did exist, it would be high on the agenda for him.

Are there references to purgatory specifically before the Medieval times (besides Maccabees). Moreover, could you define the specific verses Catholics see as referring to Purgatory? Thanks

YBiC

There are several, in the form of quotes from ECFs, and artifacts from early christain tombs. Here is a few quotes from Augustine.

But temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But of those who suffer temporary punishments after death, all are not doomed to those everlasting pains which are to follow that judgment; for to some, as we have already said, what is not remitted in this world is remitted in the next, that is, they are not punished with the eternal punishment.of the world to come. ...The City of God, Bk 21

For some of the dead, indeed, the prayer of the Church or of pious individuals is heard; but it is for those who, having been regenerated in Christ, did not spend their life so wickedly that they can be judged unworthy of such compassion, nor so well that they can be considered to have no need of it ...The City of God, Bk 21



CHAP. 69.--IT IS NOT IMPOSSIBLE THAT SOME BELIEVERS MAY PASS THROUGH A PURGATORIAL FIRE IN THE FUTURE LIFE. And it is not impossible that something of the same kind may take place even after this life. It is a matter that may be inquired into, and either ascertained or left doubtful, whether some believers shall pass through a kind of purgatorial fire, and in proportion as they have loved with more or less devotion the goods that perish, be less or more quickly delivered from it. This cannot, however, be the case of any of those of whom it is said, that they "shall not inherit the kingdom of God," unless after suitable repentance their sins be forgiven them. When I say "suitable," I mean that they are not to be unfruitful in almsgiving; for Holy Scripture lays so much stress on this virtue, that our Lord tells us beforehand, that He will ascribe no merit to those on His right hand but that they abound in it, and no defect to those on His left hand but their want of it, when He shall say to the former, "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom," and to the latter, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire." ...from Enchiridion

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

So do all Catholics believe this? Without trying to get into a debate, what is the basis of this belief/ when is it first mentioned in history?

Thanks

YBiC

It is a docrine of the Catholic Faith. The Catholic Faith is just that, a Faith system. Catholics are those people who faithfully hold the Authentic beliefs of the Catholic Church as expressed by the Magisterium.

So, to answer the question directly, yes all of those who hold the beliefs of the Catholic Church hold the beliefs of the Catholic Church.

Those who protest against some of the beliefs of the Catholic Church cannot be said to truly hold the Catholic Faith.

Even in the broader Christian Faith including Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants, certain beliefs are required to be truly Christian. To use an extreme example, someone who claims to be a Christian but does not believe the Jesus Christ is the incarnate Son of God, does not truly hold the Christian Faith.

Grace and peace to you.

Your brother in Christ.

 

[Jerrysch]

Yet having said all of this... this doctrine is not to be found in Scripture.

 

[Rusticus]

It is interesting to note that the RC concept of Purgatory is fairly close to the Jewish concept of Hell.

So, perhaps, there may be a much more solid foundation to it than seems to be commonly thought in non RC circles.

And, no, I'm not RC. (But I do relish in having an open mind on (most) things .)

 

[Jerrysch]

It is interesting to note that the RC concept of Purgatory is fairly close to the Jewish concept of Hell.

So, perhaps, there may be a much more solid foundation to it than seems to be commonly thought in non RC circles.

And, no, I'm not RC. (But I do relish in having an open mind on (most) things .)

How's that?

 

[Rusticus]

How's that?

Go to jewfaq.org and type "hell" into their search facility....

No-one gets to stay there for more than 12 months.

 

[PassthePeace1]

Yet having said all of this... this doctrine is not to be found in Scripture.

Although the word Purgatory, just like the words Trinity and Incarnation, are not found in the bible; the doctrine of Purgatory, is scriptural. Paul and Peter both speak of a "cleansing fire", in their epistles.

 

[stray bullet]

Yet having said all of this... this doctrine is not to be found in Scripture.

Well, not in protestant scripture, since they threw out the books that supported it. James almost made it in the trashbin too for the whole 'works' bit.

"It's not in scripture"
Of course, you all threw it out!

 

[Protestante]

In which parts which we "threw out"?

I discovered new information on the topic of biblical canon, but wont post it here, as that topic has its own thread.

 

[PassthePeace1]

In which parts which we "threw out"?

I discovered new information on the topic of biblical canon, but wont post it here, as that topic has its own thread.

2 Macc. 12:43-45

Wisdom 3:5-6

Sirach 2:5

 

[Protestante]

OK well the relevance of these references still relies on the debate whether those books are canonical.

But I have further questions regarding the catholic doctrine of purgatory. What is seen as the purpose of purgatory? And also, how is ones time in purgatory determined?

 

[MarkEvan]

So far as I am aware purgatory is a place where believers who have died and are not yet perfect are clensed or purified by fire so that they may become perfect and acceptable to a perfect and holy God.
I don`t personally believe in purgatory but this is what I have been told it is, I may have misconstrued a few things, but I am sure that there will be someone who can give you a more accurate deffinition.

Mark

 

[Isaiah 53]

Yet having said all of this... this doctrine is not to be found in Scripture.

This argument is moot considering the Catholic Church does NOT hold Scripture as the SOLE authority...


PAX

 

[Montanaman]

Yet having said all of this... this doctrine is not to be found in Scripture.

Not explicitly, no. But so what?