Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
I don't think any Catholic will deny that our understanding of doctrines will improve and grow over time. I realize that Protestants often think they have neat little "gotcha" facts when they point to a given doctrine being defined in a given year or at a given council or something. But it's really nothing of the sort and, frankly, tends to suggest that the Protestant doesn't really understand as much as he thinks he does.
Yes you said that before. You were mistaken then and remain so now.
It nevertheless remains our interpretation. Our Lord specified that one particular sin won't be forgiven. We believe it's possible that He can forgive other sins after death. Whether or not you agree with that isn't the issue. We agree with that, which is what counts when it comes to our beliefs.
And yet, my Church thinks it does. So when she teaches the world, that's what she teaches. You can agree or you can disagree but that won't change what my Church teaches. I'll stick with the Catholic Church rather than all these novel innovations that outsiders are so fond of.So to say Paul is talking about purgatory in verses 11-15 doesn’t make sense.
I suppose it's because I see things from the Church's point of view rather than a simple, reductionist viewpoint.No I proved that the catechism says that Jesus’ sacrifice does not pay for all our sins. They believe some sins are forgiven in this world and some are forgiven in the next world. But those sins are paid for by suffering in purgatory not by Jesus’ sacrifice. How can you not see that?
It nevertheless remains our interpretation. Our Lord specified that one particular sin won't be forgiven. We believe it's possible that He can forgive other sins after death. Whether or not you agree with that isn't the issue. We agree with that, which is what counts when it comes to our beliefs
I suppose it's because I see things from the Church's point of view rather than a simple, reductionist viewpoint.
I suppose it's because I see things from the Church's point of view rather than a simple, reductionist viewpoint.
And yet, my Church thinks it does. So when she teaches the world, that's what she teaches. You can agree or you can disagree but that won't change what my Church teaches. I'll stick with the Catholic Church rather than all these novel innovations that outsiders are so fond of.
I suppose it's because I see things from the Church's point of view rather than a simple, reductionist viewpoint.
I have explained why.You believe others can be forgiven after death why?
I have cited them.What scriptures are you basing this belief on?
I don't. But if I did, what is it to you?Surely you don’t just make assumptions in your interpretations without anything to support them do you?
Another way of looking at it is 1 billion Catholics worldwide are obligated to believe in Purgatory.One churches view, out of all of Christianity only the Roman church believes in purgatory.
Oh?purgatory was not taught or believed before 1054AD.
I provided quotes from the Church Fathers above.You don’t find it the least bit conspicuous that this doctrine was formulated at exactly the same time the Roman church was abusing indulgences despite their “evidence” has been around for over a thousand years prior to the formulation of the doctrine? And during all that time nobody claimed anything about purgatory. And what was the result? Indulgences were solicited for the dead as well as the living.
Golly.It’s called testing your beliefs brother.
You're entitled to your opinion.I see with my own eyes not with someone else’s. I believe in many Catholic doctrines brother but purgatory is one that I cannot accept.
shocking. Why would people ever trust such a church?
I provided quotes from the Church Fathers above.
Golly.
You're entitled to your opinion.
I have posted a few in the past. IIRC, you did not believe that they relate to Purgatory. Such is obviously your right but, frankly, the only thing that really matters is that Catholics believe those passages relate to Purgatory.
Coy? All I did was post a link to the radio show... which can be found at...
The Bible Blueprint for Purgatory | Catholic Answers
My objective wasn't to post scriptures. It was to post a link to the radio show. Thus, I posted a link to the radio show. I therefore fulfilled my objective.
Your objective seems to be not listening to the radio show. Which is your choice but there's nothing coy about me posting a link to something which I believe may benefit others if they have questions about Purgatory.
1 Corinthians 3:11-15 Purgatory?
The Roman Catholic Church teaches that 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 is evidence of purgatory, but is it? Let’s take a closer look.
“For no one can lay any foundation other than the one we already have Jesus Christ. Anyone who builds on that foundation may use a variety of materials gold, silver, jewels, wood, hay, or straw. But on the judgment day, fire will reveal what kind of work each builder has done. The fire will show if a person’s work has any value. If the work survives, that builder will receive a reward. But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames.”
1 Corinthians 3:11-15
Looking at these verses by themselves it sure looks like it could be referring to purgatory. But we also need to understand that this is a parable because obviously no one can build on the foundation of Christ with “gold, silver, jewels, wood, hay, or straw.” So let’s look at strong’s dictionary for the definition of the word parable.
Parable
παροιμία
Transliteration:
paroimía
Pronounce:
par-oy-mee'-ah
Part of Speech:
Noun Feminine
Language:
greek
Description:
1) a saying out of the usual course or deviating from the usual manner of speaking a) a current or trite saying, a proverb
2) any dark saying which shadows forth some didactic truth a) esp. a symbolic or figurative saying b) speech or discourse in which a thing is illustrated by the use of similes and comparisons c) an allegory
1) extended and elaborate metaphor
Now when we’re dealing with a parable we need to understand that parables are used to elaborate on a particular subject that is currently being discussed. So let’s take a look at what is being discussed in verses 1-10 that Paul is elaborating on.
“Dear brothers and sisters, when I was with you I couldn’t talk to you as I would to spiritual people. I had to talk as though you belonged to this world or as though you were infants in Christ. I had to feed you with milk, not with solid food, because you weren’t ready for anything stronger. And you still aren’t ready, for you are still controlled by your sinful nature. You are jealous of one another and quarrel with each other. Doesn’t that prove you are controlled by your sinful nature? Aren’t you living like people of the world? When one of you says, “I am a follower of Paul,” and another says, “I follow Apollos,” aren’t you acting just like people of the world? After all, who is Apollos? Who is Paul? We are only God’s servants through whom you believed the Good News. Each of us did the work the Lord gave us. I planted the seed in your hearts, and Apollos watered it, but it was God who made it grow. It’s not important who does the planting, or who does the watering. What’s important is that God makes the seed grow. The one who plants and the one who waters work together with the same purpose. And both will be rewarded for their own hard work. For we are both God’s workers. And you are God’s field. You are God’s building. Because of God’s grace to me, I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful.”
1 Corinthians 3:1-10
Paul is teaching the Corinthians that they shouldn’t argue and boast about some being a follower of Paul and some being a follower of Apollos because they each did the work God had given them and they both were working together for the same purpose. He then goes on to explain in verse 8 that both himself and Apollos will be rewarded according to their deeds. Verse 8 is the key to his parable. He explains that the Corinthians (believers) are God’s building and both he and Apollos are God’s workers and he has laid the foundation like a “expert builder”. By expert builder Paul is referring to someone who is teaching the good news. He says whoever builds on this foundation cannot lay any foundation other than Jesus Christ. Then he begins his parable to elaborate on what he has just said. Notice that Paul has not mentioned forgiveness of sin, sanctification, justification, purifying, salvation, heaven or anything else remotely concerning purgatory. Now when we read his parable in this context it makes perfect sense. Paul is describing works and how our works will be rewarded in heaven. Of course our reward is not salvation because our salvation is from God’s grace. The definition of grace is a free and unmerited favor of God.
So to say Paul is talking about purgatory in verses 11-15 doesn’t make sense. That would mean that Paul was discussing a specific topic then gave a parable about a complete different topic and never gave any kind of substantiating statements afterward to confirm that he had changed the subject. This would be like if I was explaining to someone how to ride a bicycle then suddenly said don’t count your chickens until they hatch. The person I’m talking to would look at me like I’m crazy and would be confused because my parable doesn’t support the subject being discussed.
Prayers for the dead *with the intention of alleviating their suffering undergone before they enter Heaven*, though, is.
I don't think any Catholic will deny that our understanding of doctrines will improve and grow over time. I realize that Protestants often think they have neat little "gotcha" facts when they point to a given doctrine being defined in a given year or at a given council or something. But it's really nothing of the sort and, frankly, tends to suggest that the Protestant doesn't really understand as much as he thinks he does.
Yes you said that before. You were mistaken then and remain so now.
It nevertheless remains our interpretation. Our Lord specified that one particular sin won't be forgiven. We believe it's possible that He can forgive other sins after death. Whether or not you agree with that isn't the issue. We agree with that, which is what counts when it comes to our beliefs.
They still believe in a state of purging of sorts. But even that differs in details.
One of my favorite illustrations is from St. Gregory of Nyssa, about his sister St. Macrina. She was his "tutor" of sorts, and taught him much of the Faith. As she was on her deathbed, she gave one last lesson about death. She related a man's life to building a house. Depending on what was in your life, your house would reflect that with elaborate furnishings, and construction. But at death, it's like this whole house crashes on top of you. When Jesus (and he always does) takes you out of the rubble to welcome you, the pain you'll bear in getting out of the rubble (planks of wood jammed into your sides or something) will all depend on how your house was built. If you had died to the world and took up your cross in this life, there'd be little in your house's construction that will make it painful to adapt to heaven. But if you died with all kinds of worldly attachments and concerns, then it'll be harder to adapt.
You could call it a "purging", I guess, but it's not a "place".
Such a "purging process" in none existent in the Scriptures. What you are describing is Catholic Traditions of sinners and nothing more.
God’s Word leaves absolutely no possibility for sin to be purged away by anything other than the blood of Jesus Christ. The beloved apostle John penned these words with irrefutable clarity. He wrote in 1 John 1:7 & 9..........
“The blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin” and “all unrighteousness”.
John did not say “some” sins or “most” sins, but all sin! This soundly rebukes the need for a sin-purging fire.
God’s Word also declares n Hebrews 9:22.......
“All things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness”.
Hebrews 1:3 says that when Jesus........ “made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high”.
Those who desire to have their sins purged need to trust a person, not a place or a Process!!!!. The blood of Christ is the only cleansing agent for sin! Those who come to the cross of Christ must come with empty hands of faith, bringing nothing but their sins.
Again, it's at Church Fathers.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?