Purgatory And Prayers For The Dead.

[The Liturgist]

If the words of God aren't of their own kind than of what other kind are they? It seems you're saying there aren't traditions distinct from the words of God, but that's not what Jesus said. When it comes to the several times Jesus told us how to pray, whom to pray to, and what to pray for, is a whole lot of exegesis required regarding clear unambiguous simple instructions given by Christ?

Firstly, our Lord does show us how to pray with the Lord’s Prayer. However, we are also taught by Him to pray without ceasing, and His apostle Paul tells us to pray about everything (Phillipians 4:6-7), which means the wellbeing of our deceased relatives cannot be considered a forbidden subject of prayer.

Also there is an example of prayer for the dead in 2 Maccabees, which is a book I rather value and regard as protocanonical, even if you might not.

 

[Fervent]

We find common ground or we hang separately. We do have a lot of distance keeping us all apart, and that's not just a generalized difference between Protestants and Catholics. Even this thread has had it's good realizations though.

I think this topic came up mostly because in the Catholic tradition November is a month to remember the dead and to offer prayers for them, starting with All Souls Day. I think if Tetzel hadn't mistakenly started selling indulgences in Germany a bit over 500 years ago we would never have had an issue with praying for the dead. It would have continued on as the Christian norm. Maybe Luther would have been a canonized saint and reformer like St. Dominic and St. Francis. It would have been a different world. But we got what we got. Now is our time to make the best of it. This ever more crazy world needs us and it needs us to try to get over our differences. I don't see how that is possible, but maybe God can make it happen.

Perhaps, though I think the powderkeg that exploded in the reformation was long coming from the marriage between state powers and the church and another issue would have caused it to blow had it not been the indulgences. To me, the future looks bright for ecumenical sentiment though it's not going to happen in one fell swoop and fringe radicalization is bound to be part of the process. The reformation/revolt really was a mixed bag that opened up a bit of a wild west theologically, and there have been undue casualties like prayers for the dead, but on the whole I think the changes it produced even within the Roman wing of the church in the counter-reformation was for the better.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Fortunately Lutherans are now among the Protestants who have restored the pious practice of praying for the dead.

That is a balanced thing to do.

Regarding Tetzel, some people seem unaware that in response to Martin Luther’s legitimate concerns, the Council of Trent banned the practice of selling indulgences, and it has been prohibited in the Roman Catholic Church ever since.

Yup. No way you could buy an indulgence for at least 470 years now. No way you could have ever bought one except for Germany ever, at least as far as I know. Luther was right on at least one thing. In fact right on a chunk of his 95 theses. On that one point of selling indulgences Luther and Trent agreed.

 

[The Liturgist]

I have yet to be told I have to pray the Hail Mary, or that I have to say a Rosary, or that I have to pray to any saint. There is a recommended option to do all of that but zero requirement. And honestly the Rosary is only the tiniest part of my spirituality and I get zero blowback on that. Elective.

Marian intercessions are an important part of my spirituality, although i don’t pray the Roman Catholic Rosary as its not used in that way in the Orthodox Church. We do have something similiar, which consists of repetitive prayer of the Hail Mary, called the Prayer Rule of St. Seraphim of Sarov, and I have a lestovka, a leather prayer band, for praying that, although I mainly focus on the Jesus Prayer for my personal devotions. I also try to follow the guidance of the Didache by saying at least three Our Fathers per day.

 

[The Liturgist]

Perhaps, though I think the powderkeg that exploded in the reformation was long coming from the marriage between state powers and the church and another issue would have caused it to blow had it not been the indulgences. To me, the future looks bright for ecumenical sentiment though it's not going to happen in one fell swoop and fringe radicalization is bound to be part of the process. The reformation/revolt really was a mixed bag that opened up a bit of a wild west theologically, and there have been undue casualties like prayers for the dead, but on the whole I think the changes it produced even within the Roman wing of the church in the counter-reformation was for the better.

Indeed.

I think the Reformation was made inevitable by the same processes that also caused the Great Schism between the Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox, which was a toxic political relationship that began between the Popes of Rome and the Germanic or Frankish Holy Roman Empire starting with Charlemagne, which turned into a destructive tug-of-war, and this coupled with Scholastic theology promoted by some monasteries that had become spectacularly wealthy and powerful, to an extent that one could legitimately argue that it compromised their monastic vocation, promoting novel Scholastic theology which was based on erroneous Patristics that over-emphasized St. Augustine at the expense of everyone else.

 

[ozso]

That is entirely correct. You don’t have to pray the Hail Mary or the Office of the Dead, or the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary, if you don’t want, although I think Catholics ought to do these things as they are very good devotional and liturgical practices.

That's news to me. As one example I gathered there was a mandate to confess to a priest followed by a mandate to say 10 Hail Marys (or whatever) the priest tells you to say, as an act of contrition to receive absolution imparted by the priest.

To be perfectly honest it could be my impression of such things has been influenced by how Catholocism is portrayed on TV and in movies.
Like the other day I was watching an old TV show and there was a Catholic character who said she was praying to and getting answers from St. Lucy.

 

[Fervent]

If the words of God aren't of their own kind than of what other kind are they? It seems you're saying there aren't traditions distinct from the words of God, but that's not what Jesus said. When it comes to the several times Jesus told us how to pray, whom to pray to, and what to pray for, is a whole lot of exegesis required regarding clear unambiguous simple instructions given by Christ?

Scripture didn't descend from heaven fully intact, but was a product of the community of faith and the tradition that surrounded it. The Scriptures are tradition, and while it can serve as a corrective to a less trustworthy(though still highly trustworthy) oral tradition but it cannot be separated from the tradition and community from which it sprang. The issue here is you're taking a reading that became popular more than a millenium after the fact and judging a proximal tradition by that interpretation. The church in the 400s and earlier had the Scriptures and were judging practices by them, but did not take issue with the things you take issue with 2000 years after Christ. So while the tradition may be in error, it seems more probable that it is the late reading that is in error.

 

[The Liturgist]

act of contrition

The Act of Contrition is a different prayer. There are different priests available to hear confessions, and one can easily find a priest to serve as one’s confessor who will not force one to say the Hail Mary or another prayer one is uncomfortable with. Also assuming Eastern Catholic churches are like Orthodox churches, in the Orthodox church our priests do not automatically hand out penances when hearing confessions. And furthermore, the absolution is not predicated upon the completion of a penance, which historically tended to consist of exclusion from the Eucharist for a period of time unless one fasted or did other things, but these kinds of severe penances are generally unknown in the Orthodox Church these days. Now i have encountered Orthodox Christians who have been penanced, but I have never experienced it, and I know of confessors who only would penance for very specific things, for example, slandering another member of the parish. Also if one gets divorced and is at fault for the divorce, by having an affair, one will get penanced for that in Orthodoxy, but these are not tasks that must be completed in order to receive absolution.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Perhaps, though I think the powderkeg that exploded in the reformation was long coming from the marriage between state powers and the church and another issue would have caused it to blow had it not been the indulgences.

There were several tendencies that may have made it inevitable even outside of doctrinal issues. Pope Benedict XVI considered the Reformation perhaps necessary. But I think letting the splits continue and expand have been an evil. We should have started patching things up long ago.

To me, the future looks bright for ecumenical sentiment though it's not going to happen in one fell swoop and fringe radicalization is bound to be part of the process.

I am somewhat pessimistic based on how much hatred I have seen. It takes generations of well meaning people and lots of grace to make progress. I'll never see it in my lifetime. But we need it for an effective witness to a world that is going over a cliff.

The reformation/revolt really was a mixed bag that opened up a bit of a wild west theologically, and there have been undue casualties like prayers for the dead, but on the whole I think the changes it produced even within the Roman wing of the church in the counter-reformation was for the better.

The counter-reformation was an improvement for sure. Reading the documents of the Council of Trent one can see how much reform they had to bring about. Things were a bit of a mess. But even that council didn't fix everything by any means. It also ossified the Catholic Church a bit. I have a tiny bit of hope that Christians can talk it out, if first we actually pray it out. If we bother to want to. We know what God wants.

 

[The Liturgist]

To be perfectly honest it could be my impression of such things has been influenced by how Catholocism is portrayed on TV and in movies.

I do believe that to be the case based on our conversations, since your criticisms of the Catholic Church are like criticisms of a charicature of it. Now I am not Catholic and I do disagree with them on some things, but the points you raise have no bearing in the reality which I have experienced in Catholic churches, and actually I really like the Catholic church, even though I disagree with it on, for instance, purgatory (although I believe very much that we should pray for our departed loved ones).

Like the other day there was a Catholic character who said she was praying to and getting answers from St. Lucy.

Indeed, such things are nonsense.

I suggest you immerse yourself in the actual theology of the Catholic and Orthodox churches, and also traditional liturgical Protestant churches like the LCMS and the traditional Continuing Anglican churches of which my friends @MarkRohfrietsch @JM and @Shane R are a part. I am not suggesting you join them, but rather, seek to experience them with an open mind, for edification.

There is a very nice Protestant fellow on YouTube who has visited all sorts of different churches, including Anglican, Lutheran, Coptic Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and other beautiful traditional liturgical churches and he always finds edifying things therein, even as he continues in his Protestant denomination.

We cannot allow ourselves to be separated by a fog of misdirected polemics, mass media sensationalism, stereotypical imagery, and urban legends about our respective churches.

 

[chevyontheriver]

That's news to me. As one example I gathered there was a mandate to confess to a priest followed by a mandate to say 10 Hail Marys (or whatever) the priest tells you to say, as an act of contrition to receive absolution imparted by the priest.

To be perfectly honest it could be my impression of such things has been influenced by how Catholocism is portrayed on TV and in movies.
Like the other day I was watching an old TV show and there was a Catholic character who said she was praying to and getting answers from St. Lucy.

You have the right to ask for a different penance and the priest is supposed to work with you to come up with something that is meaningful to you. So again no Hail Mary is forced upon anyone. You do need a penance but it is usually trivial and the priest will often spend longer in prayer for you than you do in the prayers assigned to you.

 

[ozso]

I have yet to be told I have to pray the Hail Mary, or that I have to say a Rosary, or that I have to pray to any saint. There is a recommended option to do all of that but zero requirement. And honestly the Rosary is only the tiniest part of my spirituality and I get zero blowback on that. Elective.

I thought that the Council of Trent establish that not adhering to all Catholic traditions results in being anathema. Doing a word search of it shows there's 142 "if one does not ________ ; let him be anathema".

List of excommunicable offences from the Council of Trent - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[chevyontheriver]

I thought that the Council of Trent establish that not adhering to all Catholic traditions results in being anathema. Doing a word search of it shows there's 142 "if one does not ________ ; let him be anathema".

Well I guess I stand corrected. I MUST pray the Hail Mary.

But seriously, while there are things mandated that I must believe, like the creeds, or that I not believe, like various heresies, I have the freedom to form my own spirituality, and that spirituality does not require praying to Mary or praying to saints or even praying for the dead. Those are all good things and I do not object to them, but I have never been huge on any of them. As I get older I find myself praying more for the dead though. And I have long prayed to St Jerome that he ask God for the graces I need to understand Scripture. And once in a while a Hail Mary. It's just that none of those things are required. It is required that I go to mass at least once a week, that I fast before receiving the Eucharist for at least an hour, or that I go to confession at least once a year, but those are pretty minimal things.

I think you could benefit from some remedial Catholicism as you could probably find in the 'Catholicism for Dummies' book (yes, that is a real title) OR better yet maybe even you could pick up a 'Catechism of the Catholic Church' in a used bookstore for a dollar and get an idea what we believe from an authoritative Catholic source rather than something you once read that some random Catholic once wrote. I'm saying this as someone who has picked up a Koran and a Book of Mormon and an Augsburg Confession and a Westminster Confession among other things over the years.

 

[ozso]

Scripture didn't descend from heaven fully intact, but was a product of the community of faith and the tradition that surrounded it. The Scriptures are tradition, and while it can serve as a corrective to a less trustworthy(though still highly trustworthy) oral tradition but it cannot be separated from the tradition and community from which it sprang. The issue here is you're taking a reading that became popular more than a millenium after the fact and judging a proximal tradition by that interpretation. The church in the 400s and earlier had the Scriptures and were judging practices by them, but did not take issue with the things you take issue with 2000 years after Christ. So while the tradition may be in error, it seems more probable that it is the late reading that is in error.

It's hardly limited to just me. Isn't scripture a combination of a record of what God Himself said and what God dictated to the Apostles? Rather than a bunch of elements slapped together? And why is it to be presumed that what the Apostles taught orally isn't exactly the same as what they wrote? Or wasn't written down by the Apostolic Fathers? Jesus only gave oral instruction, but of course it was written down by His Apostles rather than just remaining orally transmitted for several centuries. Isn't late reading due to a lack of printed scripture being readily available and a high rate of illiteracy? One has to wonder how it all would have gone if copies of the Gospels and Epistles had been mass produced and most everyone could read going into the fourth century.

 

[Fervent]

It's hardly limited to just me. Isn't scripture a combination of a record of what God Himself said and what God dictated to the Apostles? Rather than a bunch of elements slapped together? And why is it to be presumed that what the Apostles taught orally isn't exactly the same as what they wrote? Or wasn't written down by them or the Apostolic Fathers? Jesus only gave oral instruction, but of course it was written down by His Apostles rather than just remaining orally transmitted for several centuries. Isn't late reading due to a lack of printed scripture being readily available and a high rate of illiteracy? One has to wonder how it all would have gone if copies of the Gospels and Epistles had been mass produced and most everyone could read in gong into the fourth century.

Theories of inspiration are a matter of philosophical speculation, but a dictational view of the Scriptures is a late arising view that has only further radicalized. It has more in common with the Islamic view of holy writ than the traditional Christian view. There's also nothing that implies the Apostolic writings were exhaustive of their teaching, and it has been historically maintained that they weren't. It's also true that Jesus promoted things found only in the Jewish oral tradition, so there is a precedence for the Scriptures being inexhaustive. The cause of the late reading is open to speculation, but the bishops and other church fathers were all literate and had broad access to the Scriptures and the liturgical cycles ensured the Scriptures were read through to the congregations so literacy wasn't much of an obstacle to Biblical familiarity. More likely the late reading is due to changes in language and cultural situations over time than that the early receivers were so deeply in error.

 

[ozso]

Well I guess I stand corrected. I MUST pray the Hail Mary.

But seriously, while there are things mandated that I must believe, like the creeds, or that I not believe, like various heresies, I have the freedom to form my own spirituality, and that spirituality does not require praying to Mary or praying to saints or even praying for the dead. Those are all good things and I do not object to them, but I have never been huge on any of them. As I get older I find myself praying more for the dead though. And I have long prayed to St Jerome that he ask God for the graces I need to understand Scripture. And once in a while a Hail Mary. It's just that none of those things are required. It is required that I go to mass at least once a week, that I fast before receiving the Eucharist for at least an hour, or that I go to confession at least once a year, but those are pretty minimal things.

I think you could benefit from some remedial Catholicism as you could probably find in the 'Catholicism for Dummies' book (yes, that is a real title) OR better yet maybe even you could pick up a 'Catechism of the Catholic Church' in a used bookstore for a dollar and get an idea what we believe from an authoritative Catholic source rather than something you once read that some random Catholic once wrote. I'm saying this as someone who has picked up a Koran and a Book of Mormon and an Augsburg Confession and a Westminster Confession among other things over the years.

Thank you for putting those matters into simple to understand explanations. It's easy I think looking at it from the outside to look more complicated, demanding and esoteric than it really is. Personally I don't have a huge objection to the Catholic (or Orthodox) way of doing certain things and I only harp in them so to speak when whatever is the topic of the thread. It's certainly not something I brood over the rest of the time.

 

[ozso]

Theories of inspiration are a matter of philosophical speculation, but a dictational view of the Scriptures is a late arising view that has only further radicalized. It has more in common with the Islamic view of holy writ than the traditional Christian view. There's also nothing that implies the Apostolic writings were exhaustive of their teaching, and it has been historically maintained that they weren't. It's also true that Jesus promoted things found only in the Jewish oral tradition, so there is a precedence for the Scriptures being inexhaustive. The cause of the late reading is open to speculation, but the bishops and other church fathers were all literate and had broad access to the Scriptures and the liturgical cycles ensured the Scriptures were read through to the congregations so literacy wasn't much of an obstacle to Biblical familiarity. More likely the late reading is due to changes in language and cultural situations over time than that the early receivers were so deeply in error.

Here's the thing with oral tradition. How would you know that Jesus promoted things found only in the Jewish oral tradition? I mean if it's only oral how do you know anything about it, without it having been orally transmitted to you? What sayings of Jesus and the Apostles have you only received through oral transmission because that's the only form available?

 

[Fervent]

Here's the thing with oral tradition. How would you know that Jesus promoted things found only in the Jewish oral tradition? I mean if it's only oral how do you know anything about it, without it having been orally transmitted to you? What sayings of Jesus and the Apostles have you only received through oral transmission because that's the only form available?

It's actually rather simple, since there are things that Jesus promoted that aren't found in the OT but are found in the Talmud and other midrashic documents. While there likely were pieces of the oral tradition that have been lost to time, a great deal of it did later get codified and committed to writing by Jewish rabbis.

 

[ozso]

It's actually rather simple, since there are things that Jesus promoted that aren't found in the OT but are found in the Talmud and other midrashic documents. While there likely were pieces of the oral tradition that have been lost to time, a great deal of it did later get codified and committed to writing by Jewish rabbis.

Like what things?

 

[Fervent]

Like what things?

There are a number, but one instance is "the Lord's prayer" which is a condensed version of the Amidah which is found in the Babylonian talmud.