Purgatory And Prayers For The Dead.

[Fervent]

It's not about the individual, it's about the institution and what kinds of demands it makes upon the individual.

I could see an objection where the institution has coersive power, but most places these days there's a certain degree of voluntarism in what congregation one associates with. I would assume those who object to those practices would simply avoid institutions that practice them, so I fail to see the issue.

 

[chevyontheriver]

It seems there's a misnomer that sola scriptura proponents reject what's written outside of the bible. But they actually quote extrabiblical sources like Luther himself and many other theologians all the time. So really I think the rule is, that which is in keeping with scripture. Or what can be backed up by scripture. As opposed something that's completely an invention of man. And Jesus does condemn the Pharisees for putting their tradition ahead of scripture (Matthew 15:2-3). Now I don't think that means there can be no tradition that's not sola scriptura, but rather there should not be tradition or teaching which makes demands that are not backed up by scripture.

But there are all sorts of different versions of Sola Scriptura. You have one. The other guy has one you might call Nuda Scriptura. And then some other guy has even a different version. Then there is the guy who says if I don't accept his version I am actually rejecting God.

I hope you guys can all get on the same page on this. It would be nice to contend with a single well described Sola Scriptura instead of a bunch of competing ones.

 

[chevyontheriver]

It's not about the individual, it's about the institution and what kinds of demands the institution makes upon the individual.

At least the Catholic Church makes no demands that anyone has to ever pray a Hail Mary.

 

[Fervent]

I was referring to the Catholic and Orthodox church which displays coercive power. Once you go through all the appointed steps it takes to become a member, you can't leave and you have do and agree with everything you are told to do exactly the way you were told to do it.

Are you saying this from experience with the Catholic and Orthodox churches, or from anti-traditional polemic writings? Because I don't believe I've ever seen any such indication from modern institutions, and neither church has secular police power so I fail to see how they would apply such pressure.

 

[ozso]

At least the Catholic Church makes no demands that anyone has to ever pray a Hail Mary.

Really? Praying to Mary and the Saints and for the dead etc is elective rather than mandated?

 

[ozso]

Are you saying this from experience with the Catholic and Orthodox churches, or from anti-traditional polemic writings? Because I don't believe I've ever seen any such indication from modern institutions, and neither church has secular police power so I fail to see how they would apply such pressure.

I'm saying it from the impression I've gotten from Catholocism over the years. Such power can be applied by being told you'll be punished by God if you don't agree and submit to one and only true church and if you reject it, you reject God. Just recently I saw Luke 10:16 being quoted to establish that. Which seems to go as paraphrased: “Whoever listens to you [the Catholic Church] listens to me; whoever rejects you [the Catholic Church] rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

Of course the other version is: “Whoever listens to you [the Orthodox Church] listens to me; whoever rejects you [the Orthodox Church] rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

 

[Fervent]

I'm saying it from the impression I've gotten from Catholocism over the years. Such power can be applied by being told you'll be punished by God if you don't agree and submit to one and only true church and if you reject it, you reject God. Just recently I saw Luke 10:16 being quoted to establish that. Which seems to go as paraphrased: “Whoever listens to you [the Catholic Church] listens to me; whoever rejects you [the Catholic Church] rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

Such coercive power only holds if the person believes the authority to be genuine, in which case prayers for the dead are a trifling matter. It just seems to me your contention is far more primitive than the particulars you're objecting to, so resolution simply won't come through arguing the particulars.

 

[chevyontheriver]

You keep repeating the same misinformation you've been taught against Protestantism. It is not a system where every man is an island and his own pope with his own personal doctrine and anything goes. Most Protestants agree on what's primarily orthodox and what's heresy. And most belong to a major denomonation or a primarily identical branch. Virtually all of which agree on primary theology and doctrine. And Catholocism doesn't consist of a hive mind where all the members are in complete agreement. I've seen lots of disagreement and infighting from one Pope to another on down the line throughout many Catholic Church members.

Well, I have read posts on CF for several years now and that 'misinformation' I have been 'taught' has mostly been taught to me by various Protestants on CF in their disagreements with each other. Some of you agree some of the time. I wish you agreed more because it's hard to contend with amorphous things.

 

[ozso]

Such coercive power only holds if the person believes the authority to be genuine, in which case prayers for the dead are a trifling matter. It just seems to me your contention is far more primitive than the particulars you're objecting to, so resolution simply won't come through arguing the particulars.

Of course the authority is believed to be genuine. Probably most are born into it. The particulars I'm addressing are the subject of this thread so that's why the focus is there. And really the biggest objection I've given it, is that it seems like a distraction from praying to God Himself in the manner God Himself told us about who to pray to and what to pray for.

 

[ozso]

Well, I have read posts on CF for several years now and that 'misinformation' I have been 'taught' has mostly been taught to me by various Protestants on CF in their disagreements with each other. Some of you agree some of the time. I wish you agreed more because it's hard to contend with amorphous things.

From what I've seen the disagreements are between an A vs B secondary doctrine. As opposed to everyone having their own personal individual doctrine which would result in A vs B vs C vs D vs E and so on into infinitum.

 

[Fervent]

Of course the authority is believed to be genuine. Probably most are born into it. The particulars I'm addressing are the subject of this thread so that's why the focus is there. And really the biggest objection I've given it, is that it seems like a distraction from praying to God Himself in the manner God Himself told us about who to pray to and what to pray for.

Sure, but your objections are based on priors that aren't shared between Catholics, Orthodox, and yourself so you're being unproductively divisive in your insistence on your priors. How the Catholics and Orthodox view the Bible is critical to the discussion, because Scripture is in continuity with tradition not opposed to it. Your peculiar understanding of how God Himself told us about prayer isn't necessarily the traditional understanding, nor is what's in the Bible necessarily exhaustively normative.

 

[ozso]

Sure, but your objections are based on priors that aren't shared between Catholics, Orthodox, and yourself so you're being unproductively divisive in your insistence on your priors. How the Catholics and Orthodox view the Bible is critical to the discussion, because Scripture is in continuity with tradition not opposed to it. Your peculiar understanding of how God Himself told us about prayer isn't necessarily the traditional understanding, nor is what's in the Bible necessarily exhaustively normative.

The disagreement is regarding tradition doesn't appear to be in continuity with scripture. Which is where and why it seems sola scriptura becomes a major problem. While what's in the bible isn't necessarily exhaustive, shouldn't it be foundational? It seems the Catholic and Orthodox perspective I see in threads like this is that scripture is a secondary supplement to Catholic and Orthodox tradition.

 

[Fervent]

The disagreement is regarding tradition doesn't appear to be in continuity with scripture. Which is where and why it seems sola scriptura becomes a major problem. While what's in the bible isn't necessarily exhaustive, shouldn't it be foundational? It seems the Catholic and Orthodox perspective I see in threads like this is that scripture is a secondary supplement to Catholic and Orthodox tradition.

It is foundational, but it's not sui generis. It's tradition of the highest order, rather than distinct from the tradition. So they cannot disagree, and where they seem to the error is just as likely in the exegetical work as in the tradition. Particularly when the exegetical work is novel.

 

[chevyontheriver]

A wise position, though I think there may be enough common ground even with the groups mentioned, with the exception of Adventists and Word of Faith, for mutually beneficial dialogue even if agreement cannot be reached. It is simply that too often the discussion focuses on where we disagree, rather than building on agreements. I say this as someone who started out Baptist and am now in my own category because while I recognize and appreciate the value of tradition and find myself more in agreement with Orthodox theology than with baptist orthodoxy I remain in a Baptist church because highly liturgical worship remains so alien to me. Prayers for the dead to me is also a non-issue, though I do not find myself embracing the practice I find no fault with those who do especially given the historic nature.

We find common ground or we hang separately. We do have a lot of distance keeping us all apart, and that's not just a generalized difference between Protestants and Catholics. Even this thread has had it's good realizations though.

I think this topic came up mostly because in the Catholic tradition November is a month to remember the dead and to offer prayers for them, starting with All Souls Day. I think if Tetzel hadn't mistakenly started selling indulgences in Germany a bit over 500 years ago we would never have had an issue with praying for the dead. It would have continued on as the Christian norm. Maybe Luther would have been a canonized saint and reformer like St. Dominic and St. Francis. It would have been a different world. But we got what we got. Now is our time to make the best of it. This ever more crazy world needs us and it needs us to try to get over our differences. I don't see how that is possible, but maybe God can make it happen.

 

[The Liturgist]

I was taking the second and third centuries into consideration. It seems from the first throughout most of the third century church tradition and practice was consistent with scripture. But gong into the fourth century onward it seems additional traditions and practices were established that are far less consistent with scripture. And the justification for that seems to be that those additional traditions and practices that aren't consistent with scripture are based unrecorded word of mouth from Christ and the Apostles.

Actually, in this respect you are mistaken, based on liturgical manuscripts we have, such as the 2nd century fragment of the Divine Liturgy of St. Mark in the Strasbourg Papyrus, and other early liturgical texts, which confirm that the early church did indeed pray for the dead and venerate the Theotokos in the second and third century.

Indeed the Divine Liturgy of St. Mark contains multiple intercessions for the deceased, and despite being the oldest known liturgy, is remarkably similiar in content to the Divine Liturgies of St. James, St. Basil and St. John Chrysostom, and also the Roman Canon, which some believe was derived from it.

We also have the ancient Liturgy of Addai and Mari, which has also been dated to the second century, and was used by the Church of the East, and it also contains prayers for the departed.

 

[chevyontheriver]

The disagreement is regarding tradition doesn't appear to be in continuity with scripture. Which is where and why it seems sola scriptura becomes a major problem. While what's in the bible isn't necessarily exhaustive, shouldn't it be foundational? It seems the Catholic and Orthodox perspective I see in threads like this is that scripture is a secondary supplement to Catholic and Orthodox tradition.

You may not know the Catholic position, which is found as part of Vatican II in a document called Dei Verbum. Does this text accord with what you thought? Dei verbum

 

[The Liturgist]

Really? Praying to Mary and the Saints and for the dead etc is elective rather than mandated?

That is entirely correct. You don’t have to pray the Hail Mary or the Office of the Dead, or the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary, if you don’t want, although I think Catholics ought to do these things as they are very good devotional and liturgical practices.

 

[ozso]

It is foundational, but it's not sui generis. It's tradition of the highest order, rather than distinct from the tradition. So they cannot disagree, and where they seem to the error is just as likely in the exegetical work as in the tradition. Particularly when the exegetical work is novel.

If the words of God aren't of their own kind than of what other kind are they? It seems you're saying there aren't traditions distinct from the words of God, but that's not what Jesus said. When it comes to the several times Jesus told us how to pray, whom to pray to, and what to pray for, is a whole lot of exegesis required regarding clear unambiguous simple instructions given by Christ?

 

[The Liturgist]

We find common ground or we hang separately. We do have a lot of distance keeping us all apart, and that's not just a generalized difference between Protestants and Catholics. Even this thread has had it's good realizations though.

I think this topic came up mostly because in the Catholic tradition November is a month to remember the dead and to offer prayers for them, starting with All Souls Day. I think if Tetzel hadn't mistakenly started selling indulgences in Germany a bit over 500 years ago we would never have had an issue with praying for the dead. It would have continued on as the Christian norm. Maybe Luther would have been a canonized saint and reformer like St. Dominic and St. Francis. It would have been a different world. But we got what we got. Now is our time to make the best of it. This ever more crazy world needs us and it needs us to try to get over our differences. I don't see how that is possible, but maybe God can make it happen.

Fortunately Lutherans are now among the Protestants who have restored the pious practice of praying for the dead.

Regarding Tetzel, some people seem unaware that in response to Martin Luther’s legitimate concerns, the Council of Trent banned the practice of selling indulgences, and it has been prohibited in the Roman Catholic Church ever since.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Really? Praying to Mary and the Saints and for the dead etc is elective rather than mandated?

I have yet to be told I have to pray the Hail Mary, or that I have to say a Rosary, or that I have to pray to any saint. There is a recommended option to do all of that but zero requirement. And honestly the Rosary is only the tiniest part of my spirituality and I get zero blowback on that. Elective.