Purgatory And Prayers For The Dead.

[chevyontheriver]

People in hell will suffer the wrath of God for eternity.

You guys can't even agree on that, some saying the Bible clearly says there is an eternal hell, some saying the Bible clearly says hell is temporary, and some saying the Bible clearly says all will be saved. And all insist on Sola Scriptura. It's not a good advertisement for your dogma.

So when you say purgatory is un-Biblical it doesn't carry much weight with me. It doesn't accord with the continued experience of Traditional Christians and Jews who pray for their dead. Nor how our sanctification lags behind our justification, and in many cases people are manifestly not sanctified by the time of their death. Purgatory explains that. Pretty well actually.

 

[chevyontheriver]

1 Cor 4 6 I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.

The Bible alone is the Word of God. It contains everything one needs for salvation and godly living.
2 Peter 1 3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.

16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For when he received honor a
There's plenty of verses in the Bible that say the scriptures alone are the Word of God.

Actually no. IF there were any verses that said exactly what you want them to say they would say what you say they say. They would literally spell out Sola Scriptura. It's all a 500 year old invention totally incongruous with the 1500 years of Christianity before it's invention. Purgatory was already an old thing when Sola Scriptura was invented, and prayers for the dead have been normal from way way back.

 

[ozso]

Many of your Protestant brothers and sisters following Sola Scriptura also hold and teach that salvation can be lost. You say 'there is no debate about this' and 'how dare you' but then there IS debate about it even among followers of Sola Scriptura.

That's a pointless debate in my opinion because the 'you can't lose your salvation' side will say that apostates were never actually saved (1 John 2:19 etc). It's one of those 'six of one and a half dozen of the other' views, because the outcome is the same either way.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

That's a pointless debate in my opinion because the 'you can't lose your salvation' side will say that apostates were never actually saved (1 John 2:19 etc). It's one of those 'six of one and a half dozen of the other' views, because the outcome is the same either way.

But that means that apostasy is not real, it's a fiction. Do you think it is a fiction?

 

[ozso]

Actually no. IF there were any verses that said exactly what you want them to say they would say what you say they say. They would literally spell out Sola Scriptura. It's all a 500 year old invention totally incongruous with the 1500 years of Christianity before it's invention. Purgatory was already an old thing when Sola Scriptura was invented, and prayers for the dead have been normal from way way back.

There are verses that say to reject teaching outside of what Christ and the apostles taught though. The work around for that is one or more of those verses say taught in writing or by word of mouth, which is said to mean that there's unwritten word of mouth teachings of the apostles. But usually what are called word of mouth teachings/traditions, have a start date in the fourth century onward. So it can't be verified that those teachings/traditions existed from the beginning.

 

[RileyG]

This is quite obviously just a good-willed wish. Not a prayer.

Also, how do we know Paul was talking about a dead person?

According to the doctors of the Church, he was deceased.

 

[ozso]

But that means that apostasy is not real, it's a fiction. Do you think it is a fiction?

I see what you're getting at. I never considered that before, so my take on the once saved always saved view in that regard could very well be incorrect.

 

[RileyG]

I wonder how many of those who oppose prayers for the dead accept Penal Substitution or OSAS? Just food for thought.

 

[ozso]

You guys can't even agree on that, some saying the Bible clearly says there is an eternal hell, some saying the Bible clearly says hell is temporary, and some saying the Bible clearly says all will be saved. And all insist on Sola Scriptura. It's not a good advertisement for your dogma.

Actually Protestantism as a whole rejects universalism and condemns it as heresy. It's not like Protestantism as a whole does not have a set standard for what's orthodox and what's unorthodox and heresy. While I've seen Catholics describe Protestantism as a free-for-all where every man is his own pope, that's not actually how it works at all.

As a side note: universalism has been a pet interest of mine for a number of years, and I know for a fact that some of its most prominent proponents are devout Catholic and Orthodox.

So set tradition and doctrine of the Catholic church doesn't keep Catholics from not believing everything that's officially taught by the church.

 

[Fervent]

Actually no. IF there were any verses that said exactly what you want them to say they would say what you say they say. They would literally spell out Sola Scriptura. It's all a 500 year old invention totally incongruous with the 1500 years of Christianity before it's invention. Purgatory was already an old thing when Sola Scriptura was invented, and prayers for the dead have been normal from way way back.

Sola scriptura isn't a 500 year old invention, the principle was stated pretty plainly by Gregory of Nyssa during the Arian controversy and is laid out as a defense against the gnostics by Iraeneus in book 3. Though that is a properly understood sola scriptura which is much closer to the orthodox view of scripture in tradition than most realize and certainly not the distortion that is probably better called nuda scriptura.

 

[ozso]

Sola scriptura isn't a 500 year old invention, the principle was stated pretty plainly by Gregory of Nyssa during the Arian controversy and is laid out as a defense against the gnostics by Iraeneus in book 3. Though that is a properly understood sola scriptura which is much closer to the orthodox view of scripture in tradition than most realize and certainly not the distortion that is probably better called nuda scriptura.

It seems there's a misnomer that sola scriptura proponents reject what's written outside of the bible. But they actually quote extrabiblical sources like Luther himself and many other theologians all the time. So really I think the rule is, that which is in keeping with scripture. Or what can be backed up by scripture. As opposed something that's completely an invention of man. And Jesus does condemn the Pharisees for putting their tradition ahead of scripture (Matthew 15:2-3). Now I don't think that means there can be no tradition that's not sola scriptura, but rather there should not be tradition or teaching which makes demands that are not backed up by scripture.

 

[chevyontheriver]

That's a pointless debate in my opinion because the 'you can't lose your salvation' side will say that apostates were never actually saved (1 John 2:19 etc). It's one of those 'six of one and a half dozen of the other' views, because the outcome is the same either way.

Agreed. But I think it is unresolvable within the confines of Sola Scriptura because everybody is their own infallible interpreter of what they think Scripture says. So everybody else has to be wrong. It's ultimately a very boring debate of people talking past each other.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Actually Protestantism as a whole rejects universalism and condemns it as heresy. It's not like Protestantism as a whole does not have a set standard for what's orthodox and what's unorthodox and heresy. While I've seen Catholics describe Protestantism as a free-for-all where every man is his own pope, that's not actually how it works at all.

As a side note: universalism has been a pet interest of mine for a number of years, and I know for a fact that some of its most prominent proponents are devout Catholic and Orthodox.

So set tradition and doctrine of the Catholic church doesn't keep Catholics from not believing everything that's officially taught by the church.

Catholics can be gullible too. The point being that there is a Church authority that can tell a Catholic they are wrong. That's a good thing, that is if Catholics listen. Some denominations exercise authority as well, and it's not everywhere that anything goes.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Sola scriptura isn't a 500 year old invention, the principle was stated pretty plainly by Gregory of Nyssa during the Arian controversy and is laid out as a defense against the gnostics by Iraeneus in book 3. Though that is a properly understood sola scriptura which is much closer to the orthodox view of scripture in tradition than most realize and certainly not the distortion that is probably better called nuda scriptura.

You are saying that the Orthodox essentially follow Sola Scriptura? And it's all in Gregory of Nyssa? Wow!

 

[Fervent]

You are saying that the Orthodox essentially follow Sola Scriptura? And it's all in Gregory of Nyssa? Wow!

No, that's not what I've said and I'm not sure if you're intentionally misreading what I wrote or genuinely don't understand it.

 

[chevyontheriver]

No, that's not what I've said and I'm not sure if you're intentionally misreading what I wrote or genuinely don't understand it.

Now I'm not sure what you are saying.

 

[Fervent]

Now I'm not sure what you are saying.

The principle of sola scriptura, which is to say that Scripture is the final arbiter of doctrine, is present in several of the fathers. I gave two examples, in Gregory of Nyssa regarding the Arian controversy and Iraeneus regarding the gnostics, but its found in several others as well. I then made a comment that sola scriptura when properly understood is a lot closer to the orthodox view of Scripture in tradition than most realize, but that is not to say they are the same thing. what I am trying to bring out is simply that sola scriptura is not about neglecting tradition and reading the Bible in a vacuum, but in treating Scripture as the final authority over doctrine.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Actually Protestantism as a whole rejects universalism and condemns it as heresy.

That is not exactly true, many independent churches have large numbers of members who are soul sleep & annihilationism advocates, Seventh Day Adventists teach it as formal doctrine, and we've seen in CF that quite a few have essentially Nestorian views about the incarnation. Among the more liberal Protestant denominations universalism is often taught. The number of doctrinal differences between the many protestant groups is significant; there are Pentecostals with tongues and claims to Prophets and Apostles in their leadership, there are conservatives who reject any and every claim to current exercises of spiritual gifts such as tongues. Denominations differ on baptism, the Lord's supper, divorce & remarriage. So, it really is not tenable to speak of "Protestantism as a whole" except to note that all the groups have their roots in the Protestant revolt.

 

[Tigger Boy]

It is obvious as I read through this threat that it might, and I say might be helpful, for those who believe in Solo Scriptura, to glean from scripture a better understanding of what happens at death to both the saved and lost. Biblical knowledge on this subject can clear up a lot of confusion for some.

1. How was man formed in the first place? “The Lord formed man of the dust o the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul” (Gen. 2:7) (KJV)

2. What happens to man when he dies? “Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who have it.” (Ecclesiastes 12:7)

3. What is the “spirit” that returns to God at death? “the body without the spirit is dead.” (James 2:26) “The spirit of God is in my nostrils.”(Job 27:3 KJV) Note: The spirit is the breath of life. Nowhere in God’s word does the “spirit” have any life , wisdom, or feeling after a person dies. It is the “breath of life” and nothing else.

4. What is a soul? According to (Gen. 2:7) it is the combination of two things: the dust of the earth/body and the breath of life, from God. This texts teaches us that we are souls- not that we have souls.

5. Do souls die? “The soul that sinneth, it shall die” (Ezekiel 18:20) “Every living soul died in the sea” (Rev. 16:3) Man is mortal (Job 4:17). Only God is immortal (1 Tim. 6:15). The concept of an undying, immortal soul is not found in the Bible, which teaches souls are subject to death.

6. Do the saved go to heaven when they die? “All who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth’ (John 5:28,29). “David…is both dead and buried , and his tomb is with us to this day… For David did not ascend into the heavens” (Acts 2:29, 34). If I wait, the grave is mine house” (Job 17:13 KJV) People do not go to heaven or to hell a death. They don’t go anywhere- but they wait in their graves for one of two resurrection. The righteous in the first, the wicked in the second.

7. How much does on comprehend after death? “The living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished: nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun… There is no work of device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going” (Eccesiastes 9:5,6,10) “The dead do not praise the Lord” (Psalm 115:17) God says the dead know absolutely nothing!

8. But can’t the dead communicate with living, and aren’t they aware of what the living are doing? “Man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor be roused from their sleep…His sons come to honor, and he does not know it; they are brought low, and he does not perceive it” (Job14:12,21). “There thoughts have perished” (Psalm 146:4).

9. Jesus called the unconscious state of the dead “sleep” in John 11:11-14. The dead will sleep in their graves until the great day of the Lord, at the end of the world. In death humans are totally unconscious with no activity or knowledge of any kind. Is that not a blessing?

10. What Happens to the righteous dead at the second coming? “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work” (Rev. 22:12). “ The Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout…And the dead in Christ will rise …And thus we shall always be with the Lord” (1 Thess. 4:16,17). “We shall be changed —in a moment, in the twinkling of a eye…and the dead will be raised incorruptible…For this corruptive must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality” (1 Cor. 15:51-53). There would be no purpose in a resurrection if people were taken to heaven at death.

11. What was the devil’s first lie? “The serpent said to the woman, ‘You will not surely die’” (Gen. 3:4)

12. Why did the devil lie to Eve about death? Could this subject be more important than we think? The devil’s lie that we will not die is one of the pillars of his teachings. For thousands of years, he has worked powerful, deceptive miracles to trick people into thinking they are receiving messages from the spirits of the dead. (Examples: Magicians of Egypt-Exodus 7:11; Woman of Endor-1 Samuel 28:3-25; Sorcerers-Dan. 2:2; A slave girl-Acts 16:16-18. In the near future, Satan will again us sorcery-as he did in the prophet Daniel’s day -to deceive the world (Rev.18:23). Sorcery is a supernatural agency that claims to receive its power and wisdom from the sprites of the dead.

13. Do devils really work miracles? “For they are spirits of devils, working miracles” (Rev. 16:14). “False Christ’s and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect” (Matt. 24:24). Yes indeed! Devils work incredibly convincing miracles (Rev. 13:13,14). Satan will appear as an angel of light (2 Cor. 11:14) and, even more shocking , as Christ Himself (Matt. 24:23,24). The universal feeling will be that Christ and His angels are leading out in a fantastic worldwide revival. The entire emphasis will seem so spiritual and be so supernatural that only God’s elect will not be deceived.

14. Why will God’s people not be deceived? “They received the word with all readiness, an searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so’ (Acts 17:11). “If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them” (Isaiah 8:20).

15. Back in Moses day, what did God command should be done to people who taught that the dead were alive? “A man or a woman who is a medium, or who has familiar spirits, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones.” (Leviticus 20:27).

16. Are you thankful for the Bible, which tells us the truth on this subject of death???

This study was #10 of 24 study guides produced by Amazing Facts, Roseville, Ca.

 

[ozso]

That is not exactly true, many independent churches have large numbers of members who are soul sleep & annihilationism advocates, Seventh Day Adventists teach it as formal doctrine, and we've seen in CF that quite a few have essentially Nestorian views about the incarnation. Among the more liberal Protestant denominations universalism is often taught. The number of doctrinal differences between the many protestant groups is significant; there are Pentecostals with tongues and claims to Prophets and Apostles in their leadership, there are conservatives who reject any and every claim to current exercises of spiritual gifts such as tongues. Denominations differ on baptism, the Lord's supper, divorce & remarriage. So, it really is not tenable to speak of "Protestantism as a whole" except to note that all the groups have their roots in the Protestant revolt.

There's no universalist denomonation. Unless you want to count the Unitarian church, but that's considered a cult. The way universalism works is there are universalists within most Protestant denominations, the RCC and the EOC. I know virtually everything there is to know about Christian universalism.

Soul sleep has nothing to do with UR. Anilationism isn't universalism and SDA as you said is about the only denomonation with that teaching. 95+% of Protestantism doesn't agree with SDA beliefs. For the greater part the differences between Protestant denominations consists of a particular secondary doctrine. Views on whether or not baptism equals justification differ, but virtually all follow the commandment to baptize and pretty much all Protestants get baptized. Most don't hold to infant baptism, because one is supposed to repent and be baptized, and infants can't repent. There's a difference of opinion as to whether or not the bread and wine are literally or symbolically the flesh and blood of Christ, but they virtually all obey the commandment to take the Lord's supper. From what I've seen here, Protestants have been accused of Nestorianism, because they don't exalt Mary enough. But virtually all of Protestantism agrees on the Hypostatic Union and the Trinity. And for the most part virtually all Protestants agree on primary orthodox theology. I think your view is probably based more on what you've been taught against Protestantism.