Purgatory And Prayers For The Dead.

[d taylor]

Why did the early Christians pray for the dead then? Is everyone perfect at death? I know I won't be.

It is not about a person being perfect. But has a person believed in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life while they are living in their physical body on earth..

Either they have or they have not.

 

[d taylor]

Luk 12:47 “And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Luk 12:48 “But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

Where is all of this punishment -a little punishment for some, a lot for others- to take place?

1Co 3:13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.

What is this fire that will reveal all men's works? Where does it happen?

Those verse are about believers

 

[d taylor]

“Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.” Matthew 5:25-26

And the point you are making posting verses about people settling matters before going to court.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I would wish to place before you extended extracts from the writings of the early Fathers of the Church bearing upon this subject; but I must content myself with quoting a few of the most prominent lights of primitive Christianity.

Tertullian, who lived in the second century, says that “the faithful wife will pray for the soul of her deceased husband, particularly on the anniversary day of his falling asleep (death). And if she fail to do so she hath repudiated her husband as far as in her lies.”

Eusebius, the historian (fourth century), describing the funeral of Constantine the Great, says that the body of the blessed prince was placed on a lofty bier, and the ministers of God and the multitude of the people, with tears and much lamentation, offered up prayers and sacrifice for the repose of his soul. He adds that this was done in accordance with the desires of that religious monarch, who had erected in Constantinople the great church in honour of the Apostles, so that after his death the faithful might there remember him.

St. Cyril of Jerusalem, fourth century, writes: “We commemorate the Holy Fathers, and Bishops, and all who have fallen asleep from amongst us, believing that the supplications which we present will be of great assistance to their souls, while the holy and tremendous Sacrifice is offered up.” He answers by an illustration those that might be disposed to doubt the efficacy of prayers for the dead: “If a king had banished certain persons who had offended him, and their relations, having woven a crown, should offer it to him in behalf of those under his vengeance, would he not grant a respite to their punishments? So we, in offering up a crown of prayers in behalf of those who have fallen asleep, will obtain for them forgiveness through the merits of Christ.”

St. Ephrem, in the same century, says: “I conjure you, my brethren and friends, in the name of that God who commands me to leave you, to remember me when you assemble to pray. Do not bury me with perfumes. Give them not to me, but to God. Me, conceived in sorrows, bury with lamentations, and instead of perfumes assist me with your prayers; for the dead are benefited by the prayers of living Saints.”

St. Ambrose (same century), on the death of the Emperors Gratian and Valentinian, says: “Blessed shall both of you be (Gratian and Valentinian), if my prayers can avail anything. No day shall pass you over in silence. No prayer of mine shall omit to honor you. No night shall hurry by without bestowing on you a mention in my prayers. In every one of the oblations will I remember you.” On the death of the Emperor Theodosius he offers the following prayer: “Give perfect rest to Thy servant Theodosius, that rest which Thou hast prepared for Thy Saints. May his soul return thither whence it descended, where it cannot feel the sting of death.... I loved him and therefore will I follow him, even unto the land of the living. Nor will I leave him until, by tears and prayers, I shall lead him ... unto the holy mountain of the Lord, where is life undying, where corruption is not, nor sighing nor mourning.”

St. Jerome, in the same century, in a letter of condolence to Pammachius, on the death of his wife Paulina, writes: “Other husbands strew violets and roses on the graves of their wives. Our Pammachius bedews the hallowed dust of Paulina with balsams of alms.”

St. Chrysostom writes: “It was not without good reason ordained by the Apostles that mention should be made of the dead in the tremendous mysteries, because they knew well that they would receive great benefit from it.”

St. Augustine, who lived in the beginning of the fifth century, relates that when his mother was at the point of death, she made this last request of him: “Lay this body anywhere; let not the care of it in anyway disturb you. This only I request of you, that you would remember me at the altar of the Lord, wherever you be.”

And that pious son prays for his mother's soul in the most impassioned language: “I therefore,” he says, “O God of my heart, do now beseech Thee for the sins of my mother. Hear me through the medicine of the wounds that hung upon the wood.... May she, then, be in peace with her husband.... And inspire, my Lord, ... Thy servants, my brethren, whom with voice and heart and pen I serve, that as many as shall read these words may remember at Thy altar, Monica, Thy servant....”

These are but a few specimens of the unanimous voice of the Fathers regarding the salutary practice of praying for the dead.

You now perceive that this devotion is not an invention of modern times, but a doctrine universally enforced in the first and purest ages of the Church.

You see that praying for the dead was not a devotion cautiously recommended by some obscure or visionary writer, but an act of religion preached and inculcated by all the great Doctors and Fathers of the Church, who are the recognized expounders of the Christian religion.

You see them, too, inculcating this doctrine not as a cold and abstract principle, but as an imperative act of daily piety, and embodying it in their ordinary exercises of devotion.

They prayed for the dead in their morning and evening devotions. They prayed for them in their daily office, and in the Sacrifice of the Mass. They asked the prayers of the congregation for the souls of the deceased in the public services of Sunday. On the monuments which were erected to the dead, some of which are preserved even to this day, epitaphs were inscribed, earnestly invoking for their souls the prayers of the living. How gratifying it is to our Catholic hearts that a devotion so soothing to afflicted spirits is at the same time so firmly grounded on the tradition of ages!

 

[chevyontheriver]

I totally misunderstood how the system works because It's something I never really looked into. But now that it's been explained to me I see the question I asked was completely irrelevant.

I misunderstood it badly myself many years ago. What we have is a solid practice of prayers for the dead in conjunction with knowing prayers for those in hell are worthless. That leads to a conclusion that there are others, not bound for hell, where our prayers can matter. Then the developing understanding of the Last Things from the earlier more amorphous understanding of Sheol. It's easy not to get it. Throw in a temporary abuse in Germany of selling indulgences that Martin Luther rightly objected to and you get books ripped out of the Bible all so some people can say purgatory is un-Biblical.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Just because there are many interprations, does not mean the Bible is not true. It's not God's fault people do not interpret the Bible correctly.

Agreed. Some of them restrict themselves to the Bible Alone and come up with the craziest interpretations. Including that the teaching of the Bible Alone is somehow included in Scripture when it isn't.

So Word of God is not sufficient to you? You reject the Word of God, you reject God.

How did you jump from 'Word of God is not sufficient for you' to telling me I reject the Word of God and telling me that I reject God? That does NOT follow.

Salvation cannot be lost. If anyone says it can, I have one message for you. How dare you. Hoy dare you to say to the Father that the perfect gift of His Son was not enough. God gave everything for us sinners on the cross, He gave Himself. By saying salvation can be lost, one is saying what God has done is not enough. There is no debate about this.

Many of your Protestant brothers and sisters following Sola Scriptura also hold and teach that salvation can be lost. You say 'there is no debate about this' and 'how dare you' but then there IS debate about it even among followers of Sola Scriptura. I think you may need to take a breath. And maybe say 'how dare you' to them before saying it to me.

 

[chevyontheriver]

It is not about a person being perfect. But has a person believed in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life while they are living in their physical body on earth..

Either they have or they have not.

That's true enough. They have or they have not. They are saved or damned. Heaven or hell.

But of those saved the argument is whether they are completely sanctified at the moment of death, ready for the beatific vision of God full time for all eternity or not yet quite prepared for it. So how does a person who before death was not yet prepared for eternal glory standing in the presence of God then get prepared for eternal glory when they are dead? Catholics have an answer for that question. The Orthodox and the Jews have a practice of praying for the dead which recognizes at least the problem. So how do you solve it? How do I go from being a saved person with all of my warts that I do have right now to being a saved person absolutely purified and prepared to stand for eternity before the Holy God?

 

[RonJohnSilver]

At the risk of offending some, Purgatory is a myth. It doesn't exist, never has. This life is all you get to decide about Jesus. When you die, your eternal destiny is set, forever. When Jesus said, "It is finished", he wasn't talking about the biscuits in the oven, He was talking about salvation. Finished means exactly that, nothing else to be done. Also, sola scriptura (and the other four solas) are true.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

At the risk of offending some, Purgatory is a myth. It doesn't exist, never has. This life is all you get to decide about Jesus. When you die, your eternal destiny is set, forever. When Jesus said, "It is finished", he wasn't talking about the biscuits in the oven, He was talking about salvation. Finished means exactly that, nothing else to be done. Also, sola scriptura (and the other four solas) are true.

It is no risk; it is a certainty that your comment will offend many. And, of course, the solas of Protestantism are "true" to protestant thinking but not to mine.

As for purgatory, however one sees the intermediate state it is nevertheless true that the souls in heaven are perfect while the souls of Christians on earth are not so, somewhere there is a transition from the imperfect earthly soul to the perfect heavenly soul for each individual. Catholic Christians call this state of transition purgatory because in it all one's faults are purged. Protestants do not give it any thought, it seems, and just believe that there is some sort of instant transition from earthly imperfection to heavenly perfection, so, Protestants have an instant purgatory and that is where the difference on this topic lies.

 

[d taylor]

That's true enough. They have or they have not. They are saved or damned. Heaven or hell.

But of those saved the argument is whether they are completely sanctified at the moment of death, ready for the beatific vision of God full time for all eternity or not yet quite prepared for it. So how does a person who before death was not yet prepared for eternal glory standing in the presence of God then get prepared for eternal glory when they are dead? Catholics have an answer for that question. The Orthodox and the Jews have a practice of praying for the dead which recognizes at least the problem. So how do you solve it? How do I go from being a saved person with all of my warts that I do have right now to being a saved person absolutely purified and prepared to stand for eternity before the Holy God?

-
​

The outer darkness (in heaven) is what believers who did not live up to a Christ like life, lived in their earthly body will experience. The judgment seat of The Messiah determines a believers position in the next life. The more warts (as you word it) the more loss they will receive at the Bema Seat judgment.

 

[Valletta]

And the point you are making posting verses about people settling matters before going to court.

I think Jesus was more concerned about Heavenly matters rather than setting up rules for courts on earth. Just my opinion.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Including that the teaching of the Bible Alone is somehow included in Scripture when it isn't.

1 Cor 4 6 I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.

The Bible alone is the Word of God. It contains everything one needs for salvation and godly living.
2 Peter 1 3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.

16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,” 18 we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain. 19 And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, 20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. 21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

There's plenty of verses in the Bible that say the scriptures alone are the Word of God.

How did you jump from 'Word of God is not sufficient for you' to telling me I reject the Word of God and telling me that I reject God? That does NOT follow.

If you are saying that the Word of God is not sufficient to you (because only the Scripture is the Word of God), then you are as good as rejecting it.

Many of your Protestant brothers and sisters following Sola Scriptura also hold and teach that salvation can be lost. You say 'there is no debate about this' and 'how dare you' but then there IS debate about it even among followers of Sola Scriptura. I think you may need to take a breath. And maybe say 'how dare you' to them before saying it to me.

I said 'how dare you' to everyone who teaches that salvation can be lost. The Bible is clear on this, there is nothing to debate there. That people question that salvation can be lost is questioning the work of Christ on the cross.

6 John 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

Lord Jesus said He will not lose one, how can then salvation be lost? Whoever teaches it can, calls Jesus a liar.

John 10 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

No one can snatch them out of Jesus.

As Paul said in Roman 8 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?

Now let's look at the cross itself. The wprk pf Christ was perfect. Whoever believes that salvation can be lost is saying that work of Christ was not perfect. The sacrificy of His life was not enough.

God out of His love suffered horribly and died for us sinners, but whoever believes that salvation can be lost is saying that this is not enough. How dare do people say that?

Either way, I know one day I will stand before God declaring that the Scripture is sufficient and that the work of Jesus on the cross was sufficient and that nothing can be added nor taken away from it. That I've done nothing in my life, and it was all Christ alone on the cross.
But some will stand before God and say this was not enough...

 

[eleos1954]

The Catholic Church teaches that, besides a place of eternal torments for the wicked and of everlasting rest for the righteous, there exists in the next life a middle state of temporary punishment, allotted for those who have died in venial sin, or who have not satisfied the justice of God for sins already forgiven. She also teaches us that, although the souls consigned to this intermediate state, commonly called purgatory, cannot help themselves, they may be aided by the suffrages of the faithful on earth. The existence of purgatory naturally implies the correlative dogma—the utility of praying for the dead—for the souls consigned to this middle state have not reached the term of their journey. They are still exiles from heaven and fit subjects for Divine clemency.

The doctrine of an intermediate state is thus succinctly asserted by the Council of Trent: “There is a Purgatory, and souls there detained, are helped by the prayers of the faithful, and especially by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar.”

It is to be noted that the Council studiously abstains from specifying the nature of the expiating sufferings endured therein.

Is it not strange that this cherished doctrine should also be called in question by the levelling innovators of the sixteenth century, when we consider that it is clearly taught in the Old Testament; that it is, at least, insinuated in the New Testament; that it is unanimously proclaimed by the Fathers of the Church; that it is embodied in all the ancient liturgies of the Oriental and the Western church, and that it is a doctrine alike consonant with our reason and eminently consoling to the human heart?

The Catholic church and many others teach of a immortal soul. The bible teaches we are mortal (subject to death) and will remain that way until Jesus returns. Hell is the grave (a dormant sleep) as Jesus affirms himself. Described as a sleep because Jesus has the power of resurrecting the dead.

God is not some kind of a torturing monster and the "burn in hell" for eternity is non sense ... it's a terrible teaching.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

The Catholic church and many others teach of a immortal soul. The bible teaches we are mortal (subject to death) and will remain that way until Jesus returns. Hell is the grave (a dormant sleep) as Jesus affirms himself. Described as a sleep because Jesus has the power of resurrecting the dead.

God is not some kind of a torturing monster and the "burn in hell" for eternity is non sense ... it's a terrible teaching.

'Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.' (Matthew 7:13-14, Jesus speaking)

'Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.' (Matthew 7:19, Jesus speaking)

'As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' (Matthew 13:40-42, Jesus speaking)

'But unless you repent, you too will all perish.' (Luke 13:3, Jesus speaking)

"But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

God is just and therefore every ain must be punished. Either Christ pais for your sins, or you will be paying for your sins for eternity. Or do you expect God to reward us for our sins? I do not think so

 

[eleos1954]

'Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.' (Matthew 7:13-14, Jesus speaking)

'Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.' (Matthew 7:19, Jesus speaking)

'As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' (Matthew 13:40-42, Jesus speaking)

'But unless you repent, you too will all perish.' (Luke 13:3, Jesus speaking)

"But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

God is just and therefore every ain must be punished. Either Christ pais for your sins, or you will be paying for your sins for eternity. Or do you expect God to reward us for our sins? I do not think so

God is merciful ... forfeiting of eternal life is the punishment ... I'm ok with that ... I'm not for torture and neither is God. How and the heck can someone love a god that supposedly tortures people for eternity? It's nonsense and quite sickening.

Death is death ... the 2nd death is for eternity. The first death is temporal ... the 2nd death is for eternity and that is the punishment.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

God is merciful ... forfeiting of eternal life is the punishment ... I'm ok with that ... I'm not for torture and neither is God. How and the heck can someone love a god that supposedly tortures people for eternity? It's nonsense and quite sickening.

Death is death ... the 2nd death is for eternity. The first death is temporal ... the 2nd death is for eternity and that is the punishment.

People in hell will suffer the wrath of God for eternity.

Why do you think Christ suffered so much? Why did He suffer God's wrath for our sins? Why did God crush Him on the cross?

Rejection of God is also rejecting love. Without love, there is only suffering.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The Catholic church and many others teach of a immortal soul. The bible teaches we are mortal (subject to death) and will remain that way until Jesus returns. Hell is the grave (a dormant sleep) as Jesus affirms himself. Described as a sleep because Jesus has the power of resurrecting the dead.

God is not some kind of a torturing monster and the "burn in hell" for eternity is non sense ... it's a terrible teaching.

You offer a third alternative; cease to believe the orthodox apostolic faith and start to believe in "conditional immortality" with soul sleep and annihilationism or remain in the apostolic faith and eschew the errors you've recommended.

 

[chevyontheriver]

At the risk of offending some, Purgatory is a myth.

Your opinion that purgatory is a myth doesn't offend me. It's just your opinion after all.

It doesn't exist, never has.

If you are wrong you probably get to go there. But you will be consoled by knowing your future is to enjoy the Beatific Vision for all eternity.

This life is all you get to decide about Jesus. When you die, your eternal destiny is set, forever.

You may not appreciate this but Catholics agree. In the end it's heaven or hell. No getting out of hell. Only those heaven bound are allowed in purgatory. It's a temporary and preparatory state leading to heaven. Very unlike hell, the permanent deprivation of the vision of God.

When Jesus said, "It is finished", he wasn't talking about the biscuits in the oven, He was talking about salvation. Finished means exactly that, nothing else to be done.

And those who enter purgatory are already saved by the grace of God. They are partially sanctified by the grace of God in this life and they complete that sanctification not finished on the day they die in purgatory. So 'It is finished' is true, but the application of that is through our lives, or after we die.

Also, sola scriptura (and the other four solas) are true.

Sola Scriptura is a belly flop. Of the others, and there are at least four more by common count (Faith Alone, Grace Alone, Christ Alone, Gloria of God Alone), you might be able to make a limited case. For example, Lutherans and Catholics have agreed on justification. But Sola Scriptura has been a disaster for you all. It's not Scriptural, it's a latecomer dogma, it makes a mess of exegesis, and it has severely fragmented Christian witness. A better concept would be Scripture First, something more reliable that would have made less of a mess.

 

[eleos1954]

You offer a third alternative; cease to believe the orthodox apostolic faith and start to believe in "conditional immortality" with soul sleep and annihilationism or remain in the apostolic faith and eschew the errors you've recommended.

Our immortality is conditional ... Whosoever believes ...

we are immortal ... what is it that one does not believe this simple statement?

1st Timothy 6:16

which the blessed and only Sovereign One—the King of kings and Lord of lords—will bring about in His own time. 16He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

Jesus was God in the flesh.

Torture ... did Jesus torture anyone? No ... did Jesus teach it was ok to torture? No

We are being conformed into the image of God .... do you want your image (character) to be of one of who is OK with torturing people? I'm
not OK with any of that at all and I do not serve that god.

Torturing is evil ... sorry to hear you (and others) are OK with torture and believe God is OK with it.

 

[eleos1954]

The Catholic Church teaches that, besides a place of eternal torments for the wicked and of everlasting rest for the righteous, there exists in the next life a middle state of temporary punishment, allotted for those who have died in venial sin, or who have not satisfied the justice of God for sins already forgiven. She also teaches us that, although the souls consigned to this intermediate state, commonly called purgatory, cannot help themselves, they may be aided by the suffrages of the faithful on earth. The existence of purgatory naturally implies the correlative dogma—the utility of praying for the dead—for the souls consigned to this middle state have not reached the term of their journey. They are still exiles from heaven and fit subjects for Divine clemency.

The doctrine of an intermediate state is thus succinctly asserted by the Council of Trent: “There is a Purgatory, and souls there detained, are helped by the prayers of the faithful, and especially by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar.”

It is to be noted that the Council studiously abstains from specifying the nature of the expiating sufferings endured therein.

Is it not strange that this cherished doctrine should also be called in question by the levelling innovators of the sixteenth century, when we consider that it is clearly taught in the Old Testament; that it is, at least, insinuated in the New Testament; that it is unanimously proclaimed by the Fathers of the Church; that it is embodied in all the ancient liturgies of the Oriental and the Western church, and that it is a doctrine alike consonant with our reason and eminently consoling to the human heart?

There is no such thing as a immortal "soul" ... humans are mortal (subject to death) nobody is immortal except God ... period.

1 Timothy 6:16