Proving Paul is Pro-Torah

[YESLORDIWILL]

I think the real issue is not that Paul can be proven to be pro-Torah.
I think the issue is that he HAS to be proven to be pro-Torah, because it is not already obvious. Nobody needs to take the time to prove Jeremiah is pro-Torah, because it is already clear that he is.

Pro Torah and then some, right

 

[visionary]

I think the real issue is not that Paul can be proven to be pro-Torah.
I think the issue is that he HAS to be proven to be pro-Torah, because it is not already obvious. Nobody needs to take the time to prove Jeremiah is pro-Torah, because it is already clear that he is.

Yep.. since there are many takes on Paul over the Law and what did he really mean it does come into question..

Was Paul pro Torah?
Was Paul of the prevailing opinion that Gentiles do not need to keep Torah?

Then what did he really mean when he made all those controversial comments regarding the Law?

Why is there so many seemingly conflicting texts like he is talking about both sides of his mouth regarding?

 

[Lulav]

I think the real issue is not that Paul can be proven to be pro-Torah.
I think the issue is that he HAS to be proven to be pro-Torah, because it is not already obvious. Nobody needs to take the time to prove Jeremiah is pro-Torah, because it is already clear that he is.

Especially whenthe Church for 2000 years has interpreted him as being against the law. And this is the dogma and established consensus by learned men which we are supposed to follow (Just ask CM ) so what do we do, reinvent Paul?

I have chosen to believe the L-RD is testing us, what we choose to believe about Paul shows what we choose to believe about G-d.

 

[Hoshiyya]

interesting and highly perceptive replies !

 

[visionary]

It would seem wise to me also to ignore those books that the scholarly consensus has agreed did not actually come from Paul. If you want to understand what Paul thought and not what was written in his name, you have seven letters to read and interpret:

Romans
1 and 2 Corinthians
Galatians
Philippians
1 Thessalonians
Philemon (which is useless for theological purposes)

None of the other works are really from Paul himself, thus it would be odd to use them in determining Paul's stance on this issue.

You think Paul wrote Hebrews... I am with a lot of scholars that do not see this as Paul's style of writing.

 

[pat34lee]

Paul's problem wasn't what he thought, it is how he wrote. His problem was trying to dumb down enough for people to understand him without seeming to be condescending.

Ever hear two scientists, engineers or geeks talk together? Paul was a Torah geek.

 

[Lulav]

Well, that's a new one.

 

[visionary]

Pharisee Torah geek

 

[yonah_mishael]

You think Paul wrote Hebrews... I am with a lot of scholars that do not see this as Paul's style of writing.

Can you show me where Hebrews showed up in that list?? Of course I do not think that Paul wrote Hebrews.

 

[visionary]

It would seem wise to me also to ignore those books that the scholarly consensus has agreed did not actually come from Paul. If you want to understand what Paul thought and not what was written in his name, you have seven letters to read and interpret:

Romans
1 and 2 Corinthians
Galatians
Philippians
1 Thessalonians
Philemon (which is useless for theological purposes)

None of the other works are really from Paul himself, thus it would be odd to use them in determining Paul's stance on this issue.

You are right... Hebrews is not included in your list... My apologies.

 

[YESLORDIWILL]

interesting and highly perceptive replies !

Interesting, highly perceptive, yet somewhat "ambiguous"....

How much longer will it take us to overcome "The Ambiguity Effect" ... (I just love that smiley)

 

[Lulav]

Interesting, highly perceptive, yet somewhat "ambiguous"....

How much longer will it take us to overcome "The Ambiguity Effect" ... (I just love that smiley)

I didn't even see the roll eye smilie! They took it away so long ago on CF.

I kinda like these and

Yeah

 

[YESLORDIWILL]

Yeah, I think is my 2nd favorite... right behind .

 

[Lulav]

interesting and highly perceptive replies !

What it boils down to is that Paul was a Chameleon, and not the kind like Boy George sang about. He told us himself, maybe we should believe him?

Paul said to the Corinthians:

This is my defense to those who sit in judgment on me. ..........
Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.
(though he addressed the Romans this way:This letter is from Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus)

20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.
http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/9-23.htm
Why did Paul do it?

23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

 

[yonah_mishael]

What it boils down to is that Paul was a Chameleon, and not the kind like Boy George sang about. He told us himself, maybe we should believe him?

Paul said to the Corinthians:

This is my defense to those who sit in judgment on me. ..........
Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.
(though he addressed the Romans this way:This letter is from Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus)

20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.
Why did Paul do it?

23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

I don't think that's a bad thing. One who did not grow up in a certain culture may adopt aspects of the culture in order to keep from offending people - which would be a hindrance to his message. I don't think he meant it as a deception, so much as a way of not offending people before they even heard his words.

 

[Lulav]

I don't think that's a bad thing. One who did not grow up in a certain culture may adopt aspects of the culture in order to keep from offending people - which would be a hindrance to his message. I don't think he meant it as a deception, so much as a way of not offending people before they even heard his words.

That might fly if it weren't for him speaking of becoming 'weak' that's no culture I ever heard of.

 

[YESLORDIWILL]

I don't think that's a bad thing. One who did not grow up in a certain culture may adopt aspects of the culture in order to keep from offending people - which would be a hindrance to his message. I don't think he meant it as a deception, so much as a way of not offending people before they even heard his words.

Yep, Paul was all about not offending people. (I just love that smiley)

 

[yonah_mishael]

That might fly if it weren't for him speaking of becoming 'weak' that's no culture I ever heard of.

Paul used the word "weak" to mean "given to superstition."

 

[yonah_mishael]

Yep, Paul was all about not offending people. (I just love that smiley)

He had no problem "offending" those he had already converted - being rough and honest with them. He was not the same when he was on a mission field.

 

[Lulav]

Paul used the word "weak" to mean "given to superstition."

Really? that's not how I read the word ἀσθενής

Used here too,

For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men. 10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.

Were Paul and the apostles given to superstition?

Was Peter calling all women, wives, superstitious?

Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

Besides, pretending to be a Gentile to the Gentiles while teaching about the Jewish G-d and Messiah doesn't make sense either.