Quoting TF: (Quote button seems to not work for me)
It's interesting that these 2 rules are in our MJ SOP:
"No anti-Torah theology. No posts accusing or debating that Messianic Jews or Gentiles are under the law, or re-erecting the wall of partition, or that Torah has been made null and void, or done away with.
No anti-Paul theology will be tolerated. We believe that the books of B'resheet (Genesis) to the book of Revelation to be the inspired word of Elohim."
The MJ stance is that Paul is Pro-Torah.
Let's do a good job of proving it.
It is provable.
Many here are doing an excellent job of addressing this issue all over this forum.
Praise to YHWH for the good work you're doing.
As an old Jew(Mom) who came to faith in Y'shua as The Messiah in 1958-9 while a member of Kol Emeth(Palo Alto, CA)[Conservative/Masorti] I have a question.
In a teaching series that was intended to 'inoculate' us against 'that J*s*s business' as it was put, it dawned on me that Y'shua fulfilled something that the now Temple-less Judaism could not that is still required. Several of us(3 or 4) came to faith in Y'shua as a result of all this. The Apostle Paul was never ever mentioned, not even a derisive remark.
Therefore may I ask why it is so necessary for y'all here to prove that Paul was Torah observant, supportive and so on?
It is seeming to me that Paul is of primary importance here, not Y'shua. I find it disturbingly offensive.
This MJ forum has become a gentile playground that has made it, in reality, a nearly Judenrein area where wannabe gentiles can 'play at jooze'.
I don't care whether y'all like it or not.
Now, briefly, in Acts 25:8 (Paul's defense before Festus [Marshall Dillon's deputy]) Paul states he has not violated Temple, Torah nor Rome. In acts 28:last 2 verses, we see he taught the things of G-d(Torah) and those things concerning Y'shua. Either Paul was telling the truth or he was not. I believe he was telling the truth. However, I do not see him as soteriologicly essential. That's neither against him nor for him.
Who is Primary to y'alll, Y'shua or Paul? Can't be both.
To restate: Why is it so necessary to prove Paul was Torah observant-supportive? If it cannot be done, what is lost? If it can be done, what is gained?
Excellent points and questions. Well said on so many counts. Thank you. Your wisdom and insight are appreciated and accepted.
1. I'd love to hear what points led you and your friends to faith in Yeshua. PLEASE share them here or privately with me by pm. This is one subject I can't get enough of.
2. Thanks for pointing out ANYTHING offensive. Making less of Yeshua than Paul is a very good point. I'm thinking on that one. We should focus more on Yeshua. You're absolutely right. This forum is meant to be a place where Yeshua is lifted up and exalted as our Messiah Redeemer King. Thank you for bringing this up.
3. Judenrein is an issue I've taken to my supervisors. I agree with you on this. The Jewish method of discuss and disagree but stay together is one our forum needs to learn. We seem more prone to the non-Jewish method of beating down anyone who disagrees to force compliance. We want to increase our Jewish population not decrease it. It's part of our SOF to be inclusive and respectful of Jewish people, identity, history, etc.
4. Playing Jews is something I've heard described here a few times. I can't speak for everyone, but I'm not playing. I'm changing my lifestyle and so is my family and some of my friends to please YHWH according to the truth of scripture.
IF we Messianic Gentiles are grafted into Israel, not simply separate and unique YHWH lovers like the Noahides, scripture seems to lead us MGs toward assimilation. Acts 15 especially implies that, starting with the 7 Noahide laws and ending with hearing Moses read each Shabbat. Noahides don't need to hear Moses read each Shabbat. Only those who assimilate do.
IOW, if I'm grafted into Israel, I'm going to act like Israel, not a Noahide. I'm studying and changing as fast as YHWH helps me do so. I'm intensely serious about all this. Just as I won't back away from my life in Yeshua EVER, I'm not backing away from my grafted in life in Israel.
5. Why should we defend Pro-Torah Paul? Because anti-Torah and anti-Semitism go hand in hand. You can't separate one from the other. Both are a sin against YHWH. In this forum many come in with anti-Torah AND anti-Semite attitudes. Have you ever seen a Torah lover despise Israel? Or an Israel lover despise Torah? I haven't. We deal with anti-Semite/Torah posts all the time. They almost ALWAYS quote Paul as their licence to do both of these "anti"s.
Anti-Semite and anti-Torah posts either need to be addressed, or the posters and their posts banned from our forum. We can't remain silent in the face of these 2 antis.
6. Many of us here agree with you on Paul telling the truth about Paul abiding by Torah completely.
This is my reply right now. I'll think some more about all you've said.
Any suggestions you have will be most welcome. In the Ambassador thread here we're posting all our ideas, which will be discussed by the Admins and Advisors. Please consider posting your thoughts. Your wisdom is appreciated.