Prove me wrong: modesty/skin exposure

[1213]

I believe that Scripture cannot be used to defend the West's viewpoint that it's sinful for women to be publicly topless.

But what is sinful? To not love others? Bible tells we should love others. If you love others, you don’t want to lead them into temptation. I think that is the reason why modesty can be good (loving) thing.

 

[SamanthaAnastasia]

Null

 

[Archivist]

One data point is all you offered. That is one case out of billions who don't go topless. I offer billions of cases and you dispute with one. That is why your post was less than trivial.

No, I said that my girlfriend went toplrss on topless beaches in Europe and the Caribbean. You don’t seem to get this—many beaches in those places are topless, it is the norm. Many thousands of women are laying out topless on those beaches every single day. One reason we don’t see more if it in the US is because women don’t want to risk arrest. If the laws were changed it would become common here.

 

[Archivist]

But what is sinful? To not love others? Bible tells we should love others. If you love others, you don’t want to lead them into temptation. I think that is the reason why modesty can be good (loving) thing.

Do you have a nice home or wear nice clothing or drive a nice car? You could be causing others to commit the sin if envy. Do you serve good food and desserts? You could be causing others to commit the sin of gluttony. Why do some focus only on women and say that they could cause men to lust while ignoring ways they could be causing others to sin. And I’m sorry, we are generally talking about adult males here so the fault of the sin doesn’t test with the women but with the men—they could choose to look away.

 

[Archivist]

Mature believers know that women should dress modestly and have a clear idea of how to do that. Any believer who disagrees is showing their spiritual immaturity/rebellion.

Rather than challenge your elders, you should respect them and learn from them.

1 Peter 5:5
5In the same way, you who are younger, submit yourselves to your elders. All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because,

“God opposes the proud
but shows favor to the humble.”

Ah yes, everyone who doesn’t share your beliefs on the subject is immature. Well, I’m a mature believer and I see nothing wrong with women going topless. When modesty is discussed in scripture it is in reference to overdressing—wearing braided hair and jewels—not underdressing.

Have you ever gone topless in public? Many women find a well-proportioned male chest to be sexually attractive.

 

[A_Thinker]

I believe that Scripture cannot be used to defend the West's viewpoint that it's sinful for women to be publicly topless.

I want to challenge my viewpoint, and the quality of my arguments.
Prove me wrong, using scripture or rationality that's based on Christian principles in order to do so.

The burden of proof lies with the one asserting a positive, therefore you get to argue first.

It is the law of the land ... which Paul says that we should obey ... unless God's wishes are contravened ....

 

[Archivist]

It is the law of the land ... which Paul says that we should obey ... unless God's wishes are contravened ....

And scripture does not say that woman should not go topless in public. You can say what you want but it isn’t in there.

 

[A_Thinker]

And scripture does not say that woman should not go topless in public. You can say what you want but it isn’t in there.

But it doesn't say that they should either.

Therefore, God's word is not contradicted by the law requiring such.

God's should not be defiant of the law of the land ... except for when it contradicts the law of God ....

 

[Archivist]

But it doesn't say that they should either.

Therefore, God's word is not contradicted by the law requiring such.

God's should not be defiant of the law of the land ... except for when it contradicts the law of God ....

So God’s Law wouldn’t be contradicted by women going topless. Wouldn’t you agree that laws do change, and this one appears to be changing.

 

[A_Thinker]

So God’s Law wouldn’t be contradicted by women going topless. Wouldn’t you agree that laws do change, and this one appears to be changing.

Where is it changing ?

 

[Archivist]

Where is it changing ?

Laws requiring that women cover there breasts in public were overturned in NY state several years ago. Actually only a handful of states still have state laws requiring that women cover up. Many municipalities like Cleveland and Bolder have also abolished such laws. The problem, as I said earlier, is that law enforcement in many of these states will exceed their authority and order women to wear tops.

Before you say that women are not going topless anyplace, I have seen topless women sunbathing in NYC. But cops there have been trained to not disturb topless women. They know that they don’t have to fear wrongful arrest.

You admitted earlier that God’s Law doesn’t require that women cover their breasts, so why do we need secular laws imposing such a requirement?

 

[Sam91]

Clothes are a blessing.

In Heaven we will be clothed in robes of white. See Revelation 6, 7 and 3:4.

Nakedness is used as a punishment in Hosea 3. Infact nakedness in synomious with shame or punishment in many passages. 46 Bible verses about Nakedness

I completely disagree with your theology about lust and one part of it seems blasphemous. Lust is sinful, Christ says so in Matthew 5. Rather than reconcile it as okay as long as one doesn't fantasise it is better to remove it. It is far better and wise for a women to be adequately dressed than risk causing someone to stumble.

I believe that it is sinful for a woman to be topless in public unless because of poverty. In that case, those who have two tunics (or extra clothes) should offer clothes to the poor man or woman who has none. It would be wrong of me to dress in a revealing way that would even cause another to judge or have condemnation for me. It isn't just lust we are to guard against causing in our brothers or sisters.

 

[Archivist]

Clothes are a blessing.

In Heaven we will be clothed in robes of white. See Revelation 6, 7 and 3:4.

Nakedness is used as a punishment in Hosea 3. Infact nakedness in synomious with shame or punishment in many passages. 46 Bible verses about Nakedness

I completely disagree with your theology about lust and one part of it seems blasphemous. Lust is sinful, Christ says so in Matthew 5. Rather than reconcile it as okay as long as one doesn't fantasise it is better to remove it. It is far better and wise for a women to be adequately dressed than risk causing someone to stumble.

I believe that it is sinful for a woman to be topless in public unless because of poverty. In that case, those who have two tunics (or extra clothes) should offer clothes to the poor man or woman who has none. It would be wrong of me to dress in a revealing way that would even cause another to judge or have condemnation for me. It isn't just lust we are to guard against causing in our brothers or sisters.

But men go topless, yet many women find a well-proportioned male chest to e sexually attractive. So, shouldn’t it be illegal for men to go topless as it once was? Why the double standard?

 

[Sam91]

But men go topless, yet many women find a well-proportioned male chest to e sexually attractive. So, shouldn’t it be illegal for men to go topless as it once was? Why the double standard?

I do not know. I'd prefer men to be covered too. It looks trashy when men walk down the street topless. Besides, I hope that Christian men cover up around women. I haven't seen a Christian male go topless except when I bumped into one at the swimming pool.

I find it unsettling to read Christians advocating women to go around topless. As far as I'm concerned the Bible makes it clear enough that clothes are a blessing and that nakedness is synomious with sin and shame. I do not understand how people can not see it.

Habukkuk 2:15

 

[Sam91]

Nor does the bible say any of us should not go bottomless, making your point, pointless.

But it does! Lol Granted that it is indirect, but one can extrapolate that if this was a mark of shame... we ought not do it.

 

[Archivist]

I do not know. I'd prefer men to be covered too. It looks trashy when men walk down the street topless. Besides, I hope that Christian men cover up around women. I haven't seen a Christian male go topless except when I bumped into one at the swimming pool.

No my experience—I see Christian men regularly going topless at pools and beaches. At least you are consistent if you don’t go topless yourself.

I find it unsettling to read Christians advocating women to go around topless. As far as I'm concerned the Bible makes it clear enough that clothes are a blessing and that nakedness is synomious with sin and shame. I do not understand how people can not see it.

I don’t see that in scripture. Scripture even tells us that Paul fished naked (which was common practice at the time).

 

[A_Thinker]

You admitted earlier that God’s Law doesn’t require that women cover their breasts, so why do we need secular laws imposing such a requirement?

Secular law is not based upon God's Law.

It is based (in this country) upon the will of the people.

If NYC is cool with it ... so be it ...

 

[blackhole]

Clothes are a blessing.

In Heaven we will be clothed in robes of white. See Revelation 6, 7 and 3:4.

Nakedness is used as a punishment in Hosea 3. Infact nakedness in synomious with shame or punishment in many passages. 46 Bible verses about Nakedness

I completely disagree with your theology about lust and one part of it seems blasphemous. Lust is sinful, Christ says so in Matthew 5. Rather than reconcile it as okay as long as one doesn't fantasise it is better to remove it. It is far better and wise for a women to be adequately dressed than risk causing someone to stumble.

I believe that it is sinful for a woman to be topless in public unless because of poverty. In that case, those who have two tunics (or extra clothes) should offer clothes to the poor man or woman who has none. It would be wrong of me to dress in a revealing way that would even cause another to judge or have condemnation for me. It isn't just lust we are to guard against causing in our brothers or sisters.

Yes, the verses in Revelation are perhaps the best verses against nudity.

I have at least two responses, but I'll start with just one: defend your conflation of toplessness with nudity.

 

[A_Thinker]

I don’t see that in scripture. Scripture even tells us that Paul fished naked (which was common practice at the time).

This wasn't in the presence of women, but only his fellow fisherman.

Scripture compels us to some degree of modesty.

Leviticus 18



6"'None of you shall approach anyone who are his close relatives, to uncover their nakedness: I am Yahweh. 7"'You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father, nor the nakedness of your mother: she is your mother. You shall not uncover her nakedness. 8"'You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father's wife: it is your father's nakedness. 9"'You shall not uncover the nakedness of your sister, the daughter of your father, or the daughter of your mother, whether born at home, or born abroad. 10"'You shall not uncover the nakedness of your son's daughter, or of your daughter's daughter, even their nakedness: for theirs is your own nakedness. 11"'You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father's wife's daughter, conceived by your father, since she is your sister. 12"'You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father's sister: she is your father's near kinswoman. 13"'You shall not uncover the nakedness of your mother's sister: for she is your mother's near kinswoman.14"'You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father's brother, you shall not approach his wife: she is your aunt.15"'You shall not uncover the nakedness of your daughter-in-law: she is your son's wife. You shall not uncover her nakedness. 16"'You shall not uncover the nakedness of your brother's wife: it is your brother's nakedness. 17"'You shall not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter. You shall not take her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness; they are near kinswomen: it is wickedness.18"'You shall not take a wife to her sister, to be a rival, to uncover her nakedness, while her sister is yet alive.

 

[blackhole]

This wasn't in the presence of women, but only his fellow fisherman.

Scripture compels us to some degree of modesty.

Leviticus 18



6"'None of you shall approach anyone who are his close relatives, to uncover their nakedness: I am Yahweh. 7"'You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father, nor the nakedness of your mother: she is your mother. You shall not uncover her nakedness. 8"'You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father's wife: it is your father's nakedness. 9"'You shall not uncover the nakedness of your sister, the daughter of your father, or the daughter of your mother, whether born at home, or born abroad. 10"'You shall not uncover the nakedness of your son's daughter, or of your daughter's daughter, even their nakedness: for theirs is your own nakedness. 11"'You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father's wife's daughter, conceived by your father, since she is your sister. 12"'You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father's sister: she is your father's near kinswoman. 13"'You shall not uncover the nakedness of your mother's sister: for she is your mother's near kinswoman.14"'You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father's brother, you shall not approach his wife: she is your aunt.15"'You shall not uncover the nakedness of your daughter-in-law: she is your son's wife. You shall not uncover her nakedness. 16"'You shall not uncover the nakedness of your brother's wife: it is your brother's nakedness. 17"'You shall not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter. You shall not take her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness; they are near kinswomen: it is wickedness.18"'You shall not take a wife to her sister, to be a rival, to uncover her nakedness, while her sister is yet alive.

Uncovering the nakedness is a reference to intercourse.

Also, regarding same-gender nakedness: remember Noah.

Note that to uncover someone’s nakedness usually (if not always) refers to intercourse (Lev 20:11). However, in Gen 9:23, uncovering ervah (sexual context) is juxtaposed against covering ervah (non-sexual context). Thus, it seems that being fully naked has some sexual connotation. This is peculiar however, because Noah was exposed before his sons. We typically don’t view nudity among people of the same gender as a sexual transgression. It seems most likely to me that it’s incorrect to read this as an intentional juxtaposition. Perhaps ervah is used because he had just been violated.

​