Protestants: Are Catholics unorthodox?

Kurama

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From my experience with non-Catholic Christian sources, as well as various CF posters, I have found that people tend to throw Catholics into the same category as unorthodox Christians. I've seen on websites such as Carm and Got Questions that if one truly follows the Church, they will be condemned to hell. I'm happy that CF recognises that Catholics are Christians, but there always seems to be a significant minority of people who won't accept that.

Now differences aside, do you evidently believe that Catholics are unorthodox? I do not seek to have theological debates, I've had too many...I'd just like to see your opinions.

God bless ヽ(*⌒∇⌒*)ノ
 

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From my experience with non-Catholic Christian sources, as well as various CF posters, I have found that people tend to throw Catholics into the same category as unorthodox Christians. I've seen on websites such as Carm and Got Questions that if one truly follows the Church, they will be condemned to hell. I'm happy that CF recognises that Catholics are Christians, but there always seems to be a significant minority of people who won't accept that.

Now differences aside, do you evidently believe that Catholics are unorthodox? I do not seek to have theological debates, I've had too many...I'd just like to see your opinions.

God bless ヽ(*⌒∇⌒*)ノ



Kurama,
I am a Protestant, and I fully believe that Catholics are indeed Christians. Of course there are fakers in Catholicism and fakers in Protestantism. But I know Catholics who worship Jesus Christ. They believe He was born of a virgin, gave his life freely on the cross, rose on the third day, appeared to many, then ascended to Heaven. Traditions and differences aside, we believe and worship the same God. We believe and worship the same Jesus Christ.

That is my experience I am happy to say.
 
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timewerx

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If you've always been a protestant, you might think that Catholic is unorthodox but it's not.

If you've been an atheist all your life, you would think that any religious person is unorthodox

We tend to classify things that are not normal to our own standards as unorthodox.

But the million-dollar question is, who's the morally upright of them all? Who is collectively, causes the least stress to our environment? Who is least likely to start a war?

By these questions, it would seem like the Amish is the best Christian religion of all. The Ebionites are very close too but it's an extinct religion.

Those two religions almost got it, save for their rigid religious doctrines.
 
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skylark1

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From my experience with non-Catholic Christian sources, as well as various CF posters, I have found that people tend to throw Catholics into the same category as unorthodox Christians. I've seen on websites such as Carm and Got Questions that if one truly follows the Church, they will be condemned to hell. I'm happy that CF recognises that Catholics are Christians, but there always seems to be a significant minority of people who won't accept that.

Now differences aside, do you evidently believe that Catholics are unorthodox? I do not seek to have theological debates, I've had too many...I'd just like to see your opinions.

God bless ヽ(*⌒∇⌒*)ノ

No.
 
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Kurama

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Kurama,
I am a Protestant, and I fully believe that Catholics are indeed Christians. Of course there are fakers in Catholicism and fakers in Protestantism. But I know Catholics who worship Jesus Christ. They believe He was born of a virgin, gave his life freely on the cross, rose on the third day, appeared to many, then ascended to Heaven. Traditions and differences aside, we believe and worship the same God. We believe and worship the same Jesus Christ.

That is my experience I am happy to say.

I completely agree. Before I converted to Catholicism, I always admired Catholics for their commitment to Christ. I found that a lot of what they followed; respect to Mary, the Eucharist, fasting, celibacy...these were all followed because of their sheer love for Jesus, no matter whether others would brand them as heretical.

I believe if one accepts the Church's teachings, they would adore Jesus for Catholics believe that He created it. Both Catholics and Protestants adhere to the Apostles Creed, thus I think that regarding Jesus, we're pretty much equals.

The main problems I have with some Catholics is that they practice the religion, taking the sacraments and attending church...but they have little faith. Without faith in Jesus, it is all done in vain!


Catholics fathered Orthodoxy

As a Catholic, I would agree with this. If a Catholic theologian tries to reform the faith, they would swiftly be excommunicated. You could not find a more theological conservative body in the world than the Catholic Church (I've heard a lot of praise from conservative evangelicals about this, especially on matters such as abortion and contraception).

Not all people would agree with this though...Martin Luther believed that his church was apostolic, that it was founded by Jesus. He professed that the Catholic Church was hijacked by individuals who distorted the faith, thus he founded Protestantism, which he believed was practiced by the earliest Catholics.
 
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Anto9us

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Catholics are orthodox with a lower-case "o".

Orthodox with a capital "O" are also orthodox with a lower-case "o" - and they have just as much right to say they are an "original church" going all the way back to the Apostles as do the Catholics
 
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Kurama

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But the million-dollar question is, who's the morally upright of them all? Who is collectively, causes the least stress to our environment? Who is least likely to start a war?

By these questions, it would seem like the Amish is the best Christian religion of all. The Ebionites are very close too but it's an extinct religion.

Those two religions almost got it, save for their rigid religious doctrines.

Of course, a denomination which follows Jesus' way of living is very blessed. Thus I have an enormous amount of admiration and respect towards the Anabaptists, such as the Amish, for their sheer commitment of pacifism. Sadly many try to take advantage of them, knowing that the average Amish would never retaliate and shy away from confrontation; turn the other cheek.

However as a Catholic, I view all non-Catholic Christians as Protestant (that does not include the Orthodox and other Eastern Churches). I might disagree with the Anabaptists views on theology, as I would with most Protestants, but that does not mean that they are not Christians in my eyes. They practise Jesus' teachings far better than the rest of us ^_^


Catholics are orthodox with a lower-case "o".

Orthodox with a capital "O" are also orthodox with a lower-case "o" - and they have just as much right to say they are an "original church" going all the way back to the Apostles as do the Catholics

Of course, Orthodox Christians are also Catholic, they simply are not Roman rite. In fact, many of the Eastern Churches, such as the Armenian Orthodox Church, are actually as old as the Roman Catholic Church. It was simply the East's rejection of the Pope as the leader of the whole Catholic Church which led to the Great Schism.

In terms of theology, Catholics (Roman and Eastern rite) are all united.
 
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Albion

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From my experience with non-Catholic Christian sources, as well as various CF posters, I have found that people tend to throw Catholics into the same category as unorthodox Christians. I've seen on websites such as Carm and Got Questions that if one truly follows the Church, they will be condemned to hell. I'm happy that CF recognises that Catholics are Christians, but there always seems to be a significant minority of people who won't accept that.

Now differences aside, do you evidently believe that Catholics are unorthodox? I do not seek to have theological debates, I've had too many...I'd just like to see your opinions.

God bless ヽ(*⌒∇⌒*)ノ

This is a very difficult question to answer because "unorthodox" can mean different things to different people. Walter Martin, the most famous analyst of cults included the Roman Catholic Church in his book "The Kingdom of the Cults." However, I think most reformed Christians do not agree with him on that. Still, probably a majority do consider the church to have departed from the truth in many serious ways. That doesn't mean that all its members are bound for hell, however.
 
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football5680

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Protestants wouldn't determine what the "Orthodox" position is because they do not make up the majority and do not have deeper historical roots.

The only people I would consider unorthodox are people who deny the trinity or hold another belief that would be deemed heretical by the majority of Christians like denial of the literal resurrection or something. If you accept that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one, Jesus is not some separate God beside the father or Jesus was simply a human then you are a Christian in my eyes and hold the Orthodox beliefs.
 
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Albion

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Protestants wouldn't determine what the "Orthodox" position is because they do not make up the majority and do not have deeper historical roots.
All the sparring aside, what's orthodox and what's unorthodox is a matter of where the viewer stands.
 
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Kurama

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This is a very difficult question to answer because "unorthodox" can mean different things to different people. Walter Martin, the most famous analyst of cults included the Roman Catholic Church in his book "The Kingdom of the Cults." However, I think most reformed Christians do not agree with him on that. Still, probably a majority do consider the church to have departed from the truth in many serious ways. That doesn't mean that all its members are bound for hell, however.

Well I don't think all Protestants agree with Martin on this, neither do they agree on Luther over his view on theology (being an ex-Catholic monk, he still followed the sacraments). I know that in the Protestant perspective, the intercession of saints, reverence to Mary, the nature of the Eucharist, infant baptism, purgatory...these must sound quite ludicrous.

However even if some Catholic teachings are downright sinful, I believe that if God looked upon the heart of a Catholic, He would still find a heart that recognises Christ. It's crazy that someone like Mother Theresa would be condemned to hell, and the same can be said for all the other saints who professed to be Catholic.

God is merciful, I think my Catholic sins would be outweighed by my Catholic virtues.


Protestants wouldn't determine what the "Orthodox" position is because they do not make up the majority and do not have deeper historical roots.

The only people I would consider unorthodox are people who deny the trinity or hold another belief that would be deemed heretical by the majority of Christians like denial of the literal resurrection or something. If you accept that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one, Jesus is not some separate God beside the father or Jesus was simply a human then you are a Christian in my eyes and hold the Orthodox beliefs.

Some Protestants, such as non-denominational Christians, do not accept deeper historical roots. They just profess to follow the Word of God, of which they interpret from in their own words. Meanwhile Protestants such as Lutherans claim to be the Church Jesus established in 33 AD. Luther believed that his church was the continuation of the Catholic Church before it lost its direction in Christ. Thus a Lutheran would view the Catholic Church as heretical in accordance to the beliefs of Saint Peter (trouble is that the Lutheran Church has split so many times, this is evident among Protestant denominations with weak theological views).

Prior to the Second Vatican Council, Protestants were considered heretics. However with Pope John and Francis' efforts, I can see that the official stance over Protestants is ''our separated brethren''. Pope Francis has called for us to forget our differences and try to be more integrated as a whole. I think that ultimately the Pope is trying to say that the Protestant path leads to salvation, for it originated from the Church. However ultimately even the Pope cannot judge...he even said that atheists might be saved.
 
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football5680

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All the sparring aside, what's orthodox and what's unorthodox is a matter of where the viewer stands.
I agree. Everybody would say they are Orthodox but I was looking at it from the standpoint of an outsider. When you are determining what the "Orthodox" view is you would go with what the majority church believes or what church has the deepest historical roots. In both cases it would be the Catholic church.
 
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Albion

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I agree. Everybody would say they are Orthodox but I was looking at it from the standpoint of an outsider. When you are determining what the "Orthodox" view is you would go with what the majority church believes or what church has the deepest historical roots. In both cases it would be the Catholic church.
I realize that I equivocated in my earlier answer, but I think that it's harder to answer the question than other posters might think. If a Catholic says that a Protestant is unorthodox, he generally means that he, the Catholic, believes in that mythology of the Catholic Church being the original church.

If that were true, any other church would be "unorthodox" by definition and regardless of belief.

A Protestant, though, is more likely to think that the Catholic Church is unorthodox because it doesn't follow the Bible. It doesn't matter that it might have been wrong for a long time. But then again, the word "orthodox" is more likely to be used by a Catholic because a Protestant would probably just say that Catholicism is unscriptural or something like that. Some use stronger language, but "unorthodox" is not the words usually used. I don't think, by the way, that being--or not being-- the "majority church" makes much difference.
 
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Albion

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Well I don't think all Protestants agree with Martin on this
I don't either.

neither do they agree on Luther over his view on theology (being an ex-Catholic monk, he still followed the sacraments).

Most Protestants do 'follow the sacraments.'


I know that in the Protestant perspective, the intercession of saints, reverence to Mary, the nature of the Eucharist, infant baptism, purgatory...these must sound quite ludicrous.
Some of that is true; most of it is not. Probably it isn't helpful to generalize about Protestants or characterize all by the beliefs of a minority.

However even if some Catholic teachings are downright sinful, I believe that if God looked upon the heart of a Catholic, He would still find a heart that recognises Christ. It's crazy that someone like Mother Theresa would be condemned to hell, and the same can be said for all the other saints who professed to be Catholic.
In fact, we can't know who's in heaven or who is not--even when we're discussing the most outwardly admirable of people. And while most Protestants probably consider Catholicism to be unorthodox (if not by that way of putting it), few of them also think that means they are forever lost.

God is merciful, I think my Catholic sins would be outweighed by my Catholic virtues.
That isn't what your church teaches about it, however, so you seem to be doing exactly what you complain about non-denominational Protestants doing (below).

Some Protestants, such as non-denominational Christians, do not accept deeper historical roots. They just profess to follow the Word of God, of which they interpret from in their own words. Meanwhile Protestants such as Lutherans claim to be the Church Jesus established in 33 AD. Luther believed that his church was the continuation of the Catholic Church before it lost its direction in Christ. Thus a Lutheran would view the Catholic Church as heretical in accordance to the beliefs of Saint Peter (trouble is that the Lutheran Church has split so many times, this is evident among Protestant denominations with weak theological views).

Prior to the Second Vatican Council, Protestants were considered heretics. However with Pope John and Francis' efforts, I can see that the official stance over Protestants is ''our separated brethren''. Pope Francis has called for us to forget our differences and try to be more integrated as a whole. I think that ultimately the Pope is trying to say that the Protestant path leads to salvation, for it originated from the Church. However ultimately even the Pope cannot judge...he even said that atheists might be saved.

All I can say about this is that, if you think such a condescending and half-hearted "change" should be met with applause by Protestants, you need to think again.
 
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Kurama

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Most Protestants do 'follow the sacraments.'

In that case those sacraments must be foreign to the Church. One of the unifying tenements of Protestantism is a belief in sola-fide. Thus it is apparent that by mentally accepting Christ as one's saviour, they would be saved. Though the Church cannot question the Lord's will and mercy, the stance has always been that one must be baptised in order to attain salvation.

Thus sacraments (i.e. taking communion, baptism) would not matter at all because you'd be saved anyway. Thus sacraments are not held very highly in most Protestant churches.


Some of that is true; most of it is not. Probably it isn't helpful to generalize about Protestants or characterize all by the beliefs of a minority.


Looking at those things in a Protestant perspective, they might seem to be quite heretical. I believe that Protestantism started as a rejection of Catholic theology. Thus transubstantiation and purgatory were completely rejected by the early Protestant. I apologise for making such a judgment but I have yet to meet a Protestant who agrees on Catholic theology, they themselves would be oxymorons.


In fact, we can't know who's in heaven or who is not--even when we're discussing the most outwardly admirable of people. And while most Protestants probably consider Catholicism to be unorthodox (if not by that way of putting it), few of them also think that means they are forever lost.

Of course, and might I stress that even the Pope cannot judge one's salvation. This is why the Catechism lists peoples of various faiths (such as Muslims and Jews) who might be saved by God's mercy. Ultimately I cannot judge whether


That isn't what your church teaches about it, however, so you seem to be doing exactly what you complain about non-denominational Protestants doing (below).

I said it in a Protestant perspective. Any Protestant would deem such things as a belief in purgatory as heretical. Thus what I am saying is that we shouldn't focus on the ''bad'' things about Catholicism, for the great majority of what the Church teaches is applicable to all Christians. Would this make it orthodox in your eyes, or is there such thing as a flawless church?


All I can say about this is that, if you think such a condescending and half-hearted "change" should be met with applause by Protestants, you need to think again.

I think it would be good if you could see this sensetive issue in the eyes of the Church. After the Council was concluded, many traditionalist Catholics broke away from the Church because they refused to recognise Protestants as Christian. The Church has come under increadible internal pressure because of God's will for us to better the relations between Catholics and Protestants.

It has not been easy at all for the Church. Fortunately many Protestant denominations, such as the Luthernas, have recognised this contribution from the Church and have tried to improve ties, especially over the nature of the Eucharist. However still now there are Protestants who refuse to recognise the steps the Church is slowly making to improve ties. If this cynical mentality is kept, Christian unity will be a thing of the past and we'll just keep on splitting...

Christ preached against sectarianism. The Church is aware of that and thus Pope Francis has stressed Catholics and Protestants to find common ground, especially in regards to issues in the modern world (such as abortion and contraception).
 
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Albion

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In that case those sacraments must be foreign to the Church.

What an odd thing to say. The worship practices of a church are foreign to that church? How is that even possible?

One of the unifying tenements of Protestantism is a belief in sola-fide.
Correct.

Thus it is apparent that by mentally accepting Christ as one's saviour, they would be saved.
Not correct.

Though the Church cannot question the Lord's will and mercy, the stance has always been that one must be baptised in order to attain salvation.
Only if you allow for 'Baptism of Fire' and 'Baptism of Desire'--two inventions of the Catholic Church by which unbaptized people are deemed to have been baptised in effect. But what does this have to do with Protestants and their observance of the sacraments?

Thus sacraments (i.e. taking communion, baptism) would not matter at all because you'd be saved anyway.
Incorrect. You, as a Catholic, are not saved merely because you receive the sacraments, and Protestants do not maintain that the sacraments are of not value even though it is Faith that saves. After all is said and done, the only real differences here are these--

Catholics observe seven sacraments; Protestants observe two only

and, Catholics believe we are saved by Faith+Works; Protestants by Faith Alone. Neither thinks that receiving the sacraments is what saves us.

Thus sacraments are not held very highly in most Protestant churches.
That's just wrong. But I can see that you don't actually know; you merely are guessing at that, using some incorrect information and bad reasoning.


Looking at those things in a Protestant perspective, they might seem to be quite heretical. I believe that Protestantism started as a rejection of Catholic theology.

Is this a thread asking what Protestants think about Catholic orthodoxy or lack of same? Or is it a denunciation of Protestantism on the basis of some inaccurate stereotypes?
 
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Phantasman

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Orthodoxy is opposed to heterodoxy ("other teaching") or heresy-WIKI

Anyone who reads Irenaeus "Against Heresies" or understands the Creed of Constantinople 381AD will understand that the Holy Catholic Church (and Messianics) are the "Christian" church of God and any other teaching is "Unorthodox".

For hundreds of years, the Catholics were the Orthodox religion. Muslims could consider Catholics "Unorthodox" since there are more of them than Catholics. But they aren't "Christian". The term Unorthodox simply means to not follow an Orthodox or greatest gathering of believers of a religious following with a different belief.
 
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From my experience with non-Catholic Christian sources, as well as various CF posters, I have found that people tend to throw Catholics into the same category as unorthodox Christians. I've seen on websites such as Carm and Got Questions that if one truly follows the Church, they will be condemned to hell. I'm happy that CF recognises that Catholics are Christians, but there always seems to be a significant minority of people who won't accept that.

Now differences aside, do you evidently believe that Catholics are unorthodox? I do not seek to have theological debates, I've had too many...I'd just like to see your opinions.

God bless ヽ(*⌒∇⌒*)ノ

we have to agree on a common set of orthodoxy before we begin to say someone is "unorthodox" or not. If we use the measure of CF then it is the Nicene Creed and if that is our "rules" of what is a Christian or not then a Catholic is most certainly a Christian. If we do not use the Nicene Creed as our measure and use something else thereby eliminating or including others as "orthodoxy" that the Nicene Creed cannot agree with then by the rules of CF that conversation itself would be considered unorthodox.
 
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