Protestant errors and inventions (3)

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GratiaCorpusChristi

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Do we need new entries in the list to cater for untrained pastors as preferable to trained ones? I am sure some groups probably eschew seminary and bible college trained folk as their pastors because they think that such training created 'devils disciples' rather than doctors of divinity.

Should I move the "one true church is invisible" entry up to number 8 or so, right after the bible errors? Like this:

  1. A bible with only 66 books.
  2. The list of books constituting the bible is implied by the books themselves.
  3. The King James Version of the bible is the only trustworthy bible in English.
    Rick Flanders: Why We Use the King James Version of the Bible (Lancaster Baptist Church) - YouTube
  4. Jesus spoke in parables most of the time so his words are mostly metaphorical.
  5. Sola Scriptura - In English "Scripture alone" is the theory (unsupported by sacred scripture) that "all things necessary for God's glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture.
    [*]Prima Scriptura - A doctrine teaching that besides canonical scripture some other guides for what a believer should believe may helpful but scripture always retains the role of final arbiter of doctrine and practise.
    [*]Personal interpretation of scripture as normative (see J I Packer's, FUNDAMENTALISM AND THE WORD OF GOD)
    [*]The One True Church is not a visible institution.
    1. The One True Church is made up of all true believers scattered throughout all denominations.

    [*]Arminianism.
    Arminianism is based on the theological ideas of the previously Dutch Reformed theologian Jacobus Arminius (1560–1609) and his historic supporters known as the Remonstrants. ... They asserted that:
    1. election (and condemnation on the day of judgment) was conditioned by the rational faith or nonfaith of man;
    2. the Atonement, while qualitatively adequate for all men, is efficacious only for the man of faith;
    3. unaided by the Holy Spirit, no person is able to respond to God’s will;
    4. grace is resistible; and
    5. believers are able to resist sin but are not beyond the possibility of falling from grace.
    [*]Faith alone - In Latin "sola fide" is the theory (unsupported by scripture fact) that salvation is obtained by faith alone.
    [*]Antinomianism.
    In Christianity, an antinomian is "one who holds that under the gospel dispensation of grace the moral law is of no use or obligation because faith alone is necessary to salvation". ... Antinomianism in modern times is commonly seen as the theological opposite to Legalism or Works righteousness, the notion that obedience to religious law earns salvation. This makes antinomianism an exaggeration of justification by faith alone. -- Wikipedia
    [*]Total depravity - one of the five points of Calvinism (All human beings are affected by sin in every area of thought and conduct so that nothing that comes out of anyone apart from the regenerating grace of God can please God. As far as our relationships to God are concerned, we are all so ruined by sin that no one can properly understand either God or God's ways. Nor do we seek God, unless He is first at work within us to lead us to do so).
    [*]Unconditional election - second point of Calvinism (If sinners are as helpless in their depravity as the Bible says they are, unable to know and unwilling to seek God, then the only way they could possibly be saved is for God to take the initiative to change and save them. This is what election means. It is God choosing to save those who, apart from His sovereign choice and subsequent action, certainly would perish.).
    [*]Limited atonement - third point of Calvinism (Reformed theology stresses that Jesus actually atoned for the sins of those the Father had chosen. He actually propitiated the wrath of God toward His people by taking their judgment upon Himself, actually redeemed them, and actually reconciled those specific persons to God. A better name for "limited" atonement would be "particular" or "specific" redemption.).
    [*]Irresistible grace - fourth point of Calvinism (When God works in our hearts, regenerating us and creating a renewed will within, then what was undesirable before becomes highly desirable, and we run to Jesus just as previously we ran away from Him. Fallen sinners do resist God's grace, but His regenerating grace is effectual. It overcomes sin and accomplishes God's purpose).
    [*]Perseverance of the saints - the fifth point of Calvinism (You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.)
    [*]Once saved always saved.
    1. Once saved always saved even when one denies the faith some time after being saved.
    2. Rededications even though once saved always saved.

    [*]Double predestination. [In the Reformed view God from all eternity decrees some to election and positively intervenes in their lives to work regeneration and faith by a monergistic work of grace. To the non-elect God withholds this monergistic work of grace, passing them by and leaving them to themselves. He does not monergistically work sin or unbelief in their lives. Even in the case of the "hardening" of the sinners' already recalcitrant hearts, God does not, as Luther stated, "work evil in us (for hardening is working evil) by creating fresh evil in us." -- R. C. Sproul]
    [*]Lapsarianism:The logical order of God's decrees in Calvinist theology is the study of the logical order (in God's mind, before Creation) of the decree to ordain or allow the fall of man and reprobation in relation to his decree to elect and save sinners. Several opposing positions have been proposed, all of which have names with the Latin root lapsus meaning fall.
    1. Supralapsaranism.
    2. Infralapsarianism/Sublapsarianism.

    [*]Penal substitutionary atonement - Penal substitutionary atonement refers to the doctrine that Christ died on the cross as a substitute for sinners. God imputed the guilt of our sins to Christ, and he, in our place, bore the punishment that we deserve. This was a full payment for sins, which satisfied both the wrath and the righteousness of God, so that He could forgive sinners without compromising His own holy standard.
    [*]Ordinances/Anti-sacramentalism.
    [*]Infant dedication (not baptism).
    [*]It isn't baptism unless one is submerged.
    [*]Only people old enough to say the sinner's prayer can be baptised.
    [*]One is born again by saying & believing the sinner's prayer (or a near equivalent).
    [*]Believer's baptism as a public testimony to one's faith but not as the washing away of one's sins nor as the means by which God brings about the birth from above.
    [*]Covenant baptism as a sign and symbol of inclusion into the new covenant community but not as the means by which God gives sanctifying grace.
    [*]The Lord's supper as sign and symbol but not as the body and blood of the Lord.
    [*]Two greater and five lesser Sacraments.
    [*]Dispensing with baptism and the Lord's supper altogether. [A few groups have dropped all sacraments.]
    [*]Errors about The rapture
    1. A pre tribulation rapture.
    2. A mid tribulation rapture.

    [*]Errors about the seven churches in the Apocalypse of saint John. These errors are not formal components in denominational statements of belief although they are commonly held among some groups within Protestantism.
    1. The seven Churches represent seven ages.
    2. The seven Churches prove that denominations existed in the first century AD.

    [*]A future seven year reign of anti-christ with three and a half years of Israelite temple worship.
    [*]Dispensationalism: scripture must be rightly divided by applying a scheme of dispensations to it; usually seven dispensations are taken as normative but other additional dispensations are sometimes included.
    [*]The sermon on the mount as "old testament teaching" that's not applicable under the new covenant.
    [*]Sermon centric worship - being an explanation of the meaning of the text of scripture or a lesson on morals or doctrine for the instruction of the congregation - is the central act of worship in the gathering of the Lord's people on the Lord's day.
    [*]Denominationalism.
    [*]Rejection of the threefold office in the church. Deacon, Presbyter, and Bishop are the offices identified in sacred scripture and present in the church from the beginning. Some protestant bodies reduce this to Deacon and Elder some to Deacon and Pastor and some teach Deacon, Elder, and Pastor with Pastor distinguished only by being the "teaching elder" in a congregation.
    [*]Rejection of clerical laity distinction in the church.
    [*]Seminary and Bible colleges damage one's faith and ought to be avoided.
    [*]Pastors and elders need not be graduates of a seminary or an accredited bible college.
    [*]The pulpit ought to be the focus of a church building's architecture and the table for use on communion ought to be to the side or located in a different part of the church because there is no altar in the church and no sacrifice is made in a church service.
    [*]Equivocating "worship" and "worship service" - meaning that worship in a small group consisting of two or more is the same as the 'worship service' one would normally experience on a Sunday in a church [building]. [Not a formal doctrine but a widely held view of Christian worship among some of those in denominations and also some in non-denominational and other groups.]
    [*]Being a Christian while eschewing any church affiliation. Is the belief that one need not be associated with any church or group. While this is not a denominational belief it is sufficiently widespread to make a kind of theology of its own.
    [*]Emerging church movement; Emerging churches are fluid, hard to define, and varied; they contrast themselves with what has gone before by using the term "inherited church." Key themes of the emerging church are couched in the language of reform, Praxis-oriented lifestyles, Post-evangelical thought, and incorporation or acknowledgement of political and Post-modern elements. ... -- from Wikipedia
    [*]Prosperity gospel: Prosperity theology (sometimes referred to as the prosperity gospel, the health and wealth gospel, or the gospel of success) is a Christian religious doctrine that financial blessing is the will of God for Christians, and that faith, positive speech, and donations to Christian ministries will always increase one's material wealth.
    [*]Congregations electing their ministers.
    [*]Seeker sensitive churches.
    [*]Accountability partners.
    [*]Altar calls.
    [*]Church discipline effectively nullified because of the difficulty of enforcement in a multi-denominational community.
    [*]Temperance movement. ... Alcohol is wicked, "a devil's brew".
    [*]Old covenant Dietary laws applied to new covenant Christians: Christians shall have no shellfish, crustaceans, pork, or any 'unclean meat' because they are forbidden in the Law of Moses.
    [*]The papacy is the antichrist.
    [*]A specific pope will be the antichrist.
    [*]Michael the Archangel and Jesus being the same person.
    [*]Heaven being in the Orion nebula.
    [*]Soul Sleep: Death is an unconscious, sleep-like state. When Jesus Christ comes again, He will resurrect the dead who believe in Him and will take them to heaven. The dead who are unbelievers will be resurrected 1000 years later.
    [*]For a period of a thousand years the earth will be utterly desolate and only Satan and his angels will be on earth. At the end of the thousand years the the Holy City in heaven will descend to earth. The unrighteous dead will be resurrected and with Satan and his angels, they will surround the Holy City to attack God and His people. God will destroy Satan and his followers, hence removing sin forever.
    [*]Trail of blood - also known as Baptist successionism. It is the theory (unsupported by fact) that Jesus Christ is the founder of the Baptist denomination (Which in fact started around 1605 AD in England).
    [*]The Jesuit oath - An absurd fake oath that among other things says "make and wage relentless war, secretly and openly, against all heretics, Protestants and Masons".
    [*]Oneness (denying the Trinity) - some might think this is a non-christian sect's doctrine while others are inclined to believe that Oneness Pentecostalism is within the confines of Christianity.
    [*]Errors about indulgences:
    1. Indulgences forgive sins. This is more of a common error held by some Protestants because they either do not know what an indulgence is or because they believe anti-catholic propaganda. An indulgence does not cause any sins to be forgiven.
    2. The Catholic Church taught that indulgences were to be sold. This too is a common error held by some but not backed up by the facts of history. The Catholic Church does not and never did teach that one could buy an indulgence. But, alas, some unscrupulous people no doubt did sell them.




Since this list seems to be errors that don't include all Protestants but are errors found among some Protestants, and some which are major points of division between Protestants, I'd really like to take issue with one or two that can be found among Catholics and Orthodox as well, and are therefore not really uniquely Protestant errors:

6. Prima Scriptura. Scripture is the final arbitor, but if scripture is the final arbitor as interpreted by a council then we're really just talking about Lutheran, Anglican, and Orthodox models of authority. And pre-Tridentine Catholics as well. Francis Oakley, The Western Church in the Later Middle Ages. Steven Ozment, The Age of Reform, 1250-1550: An Intellectual and Religious History of Late Medieval and Reformation Europe.

19. Lapsarianism. Although Catholicism has never held that God is the sole cause for damnation, double causation has a very long history in the philosophical work of the great scholastics. While God certainly did not preordain people directly to hell solely of his own volition, the idea that God has nothing to do with people's damnation or indeed has nothing to do with any given human actual is a post-Enlightenment understanding of single causation. William Placher, The Domestication of Transcendence.

20. Penal substitution. Neither Catholics nor Orthodox believe in double imputation, but the single imputation of our sin onto Christ, apart from his imputation of righteousness upon us, is the basis for the theology of the sacrament of penance. Of course Catholic theology insists that works infused with grace restore our actual righteousness, but the expiation of sin (getting us to "neutral") is grounded in the cross. If necessarily, just change #20 to double imputation.

37. Denominationalism. Very improperly defined. What's the problem? In what way does this qualify as solely a Protestant error?

49. Accountability partners. What? Seriously? Trust me, I know plenty of Catholics who look to one another for moral accountability. Heck, it's advised in some of the best Catholic moral literature!

51. Church discipline nullified because of a multi-denominational environment. Well come on, now, that's hardly a Protestant error. If anything, it's simply due to the fact that nations provided substantial religious liberty and had adequate space for offenders to run. That's how Rhode Island and Connecticut were founded, you know.

55. A specific pope will be the antichrist. This is absolutely not unique to Protestants. There is a very long tradition going back at least a thousand years predicting the rise of a papal antichrist who will corrupt the church. The accusation, of course, assumes the importance of the papacy- whether as God's appointed leader of the church or as a historically contingent office that has come to assume leadership- because the antichrist has long been regarded as a figure who arrives to corrupt the church from within. And where better than in the chair of St. Peter? You can find Catholics making this claiming throughout the Middle Ages, least of whom is Dante Alighieri. Bernard McGinn, Antichrist: Two Thousand Years of the Human Fascination With Evil.

I'm not debate whether on not any of these points are right or wrong. The important thing is that these are not uniquely Protestant errors. They may very well be errors, or they may not, or they may only be errors in a Protestant context, or only in a Catholic one. But they are not uniquely Protestant.

Honorable mention (uniquely Protestant, but simply wrong):

63.2. Selling of indulgences. The Catholic Church has never taught that indulgences are to be sold, and that is correct. But that gives the mistaken impression that the selling of indulgences was not authorized by high church authorities, including Cardinal Albrecht of Mainz and Pope Leo X. Dogmatically, they were not sold, but their sale was not confined to a few minor "unscrupulous people."
 
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plmarquette

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Parsimony.... do you wish to help people or run your mouth ...
James chapter 3 on the tongue
James Chapter 1.27 the true religion ... almsgiving and the corporal works of mercy

James 2 show me your works and I'll validate your faith....did you get those...
the Pope, I believe, just said, quit doing what doesn't work.....page after page after page of "venting"
 
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shturt678

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Technically, Lutherans are the ones that contend that saving faith contains not only notia (knowledge) and assensus (assent), but ficudia (fidelity). The Catholic definition of faith only includes the first two, which is why it is so important to place fidelity under the headings of hope and love (works).

There is further debate between Lutherans and Reformed as to the essential nature of faith. While Lutherans and Reformed both agree that full, mature faith involves fidelity as well as knowledge and assent, the Reformed tend to see assent as the more important part (giving rise to the Calvinist-Arminian debate over the origin of that assent) whereas Lutherans tend to see fidelity, or trust, as basic (something even an infant can have just by being in a state of dependence, or grace).

Thank you. Not only do I agree to disagree with Mr. Hinlicky's works, but most Lutheran works after 1918, and especially after 1929 loosely speaking.

Non-modern Lutheran"s saving faith, ie, just my opinion: A trust in God's promise that is centered in the Genuine Lord Jesus Christ produced by God, Christ, and the Spirit, Who come to us in and by, and must be based upon, the Word, declared righteous as the result of works of faith effected through a Genuine repentance.

However have the greatest respect for you and your words, thank you again.

Just ol' old Jack (IICor.4:7)
 
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Root of Jesse

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This is incorrect. The apostles are simply disciples that have moved on from learning to teaching. That's the only difference. No where in scripture do we see a promise given to the disciples where they are "protected" from teaching error.
So who did Jesus send out two by two? They were out there learnin'? Don't think so. They were teaching. I've already shown you where Jesus protects His apostles from teaching error...
Didn't Paul say that he had to confront Peter for leading others in hypocrisy against gentiles? Isn't that error?
Not an error of doctrine, but one of practice, "t"radition.

Because that's what He said He'd do. He said the Holy Spirit would come as another Comforter once He left. The Holy Spirit was His replacement, not Peter. Visible or invisible wouldn't matter because we walk by faith, not by sight.
Not his replacement, wrong. He (the Holy Spirit) is the Advocate. Paraclete- "one who consoles or comforts, one who encourages or uplifts; hence refreshes, and/or one who intercedes on our behalf. This means that he's beside us, not replacing. Peter doesn't replace Christ, he represent's Christ.
 
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tadoflamb

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49. Accountability partners. What? Seriously? Trust me, I know plenty of Catholics who look to one another for moral accountability. Heck, it's advised in some of the best Catholic moral literature!

I've been Catholic for 10 years now and have yet to come across 'accountability partners' being practiced in the Catholic context. What we do have is the Sacrament of Reconciliation and it's my thought that, in the absence of authentic Catholic teaching or practice, substitutes will arise. For example, in the absence of confession, we have accountability partners. Priests have been replaced by 'worship leaders', the sanctuary has become a stage, stained glass windows are now show lights, and the Holy Eucharist has been converted to a pre-filled,sealed individual communion cup of grape juice (but only the best freshest juice). It's an interesting study finding what men have come up with to fill the void where authentic Catholic belief or practice once existed.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Technically, Lutherans are the ones that contend that saving faith contains not only notia (knowledge) and assensus (assent), but ficudia (fidelity).

Fiducia means trust, reliability. While fidelis means faithful, loyal. In English Fidelity is the quality of being faithful or loyal. Fidelis (Latin) and Fidelity (English) are an excellent match as source-language-word to host-language-word in translation.
The Catholic definition of faith only includes the first two,

Catholics define faith thus:
FAITH is Both a gift of God and a human act by which the believer gives personal adherence to God who invites his response, and freely assents to the whole truth that God has revealed. It is this revelation of God which the Church proposes for our belief, and which we profess in the Creed, celebrate in the sacraments, live by right conduct that fulfils the twofold commandment of charity (as specified in the ten commandments), and respond to in our prayer of faith. Faith is both a theological virtue given by God as grace, and an obligation which flows from the first commandment of God.
Also the following is offered by way of emphasis and explanation:
Faith is first of all a personal adherence of man to God. At the same time, and inseparably, it is a free assent to the whole truth that God has revealed. As personal adherence to God and assent to his truth, Christian faith differs from our faith in any human person. It is right and just to entrust oneself wholly to God and to believe absolutely what he says. It would be futile and false to place such faith in a creature.
Fides is the Latin translation of the Greek πίστις (See Matthew 15:28 in the Vulgate and Greek NT for an example).
which is why it is so important to place fidelity under the headings of hope and love (works).

As one Catholic bishop quipped, "Faith is faith. Believing is just believing". The character you've put on Catholic views about faith in the quotes from your post (shown above) is incorrect. It is clear from both ancient and modern sources that Catholic teaching is that faith is trust, belief, and loyalty vested in God.
There is further debate between Lutherans and Reformed as to the essential nature of faith. While Lutherans and Reformed both agree that full, mature faith involves fidelity as well as knowledge and assent, the Reformed tend to see assent as the more important part (giving rise to the Calvinist-Arminian debate over the origin of that assent) whereas Lutherans tend to see fidelity, or trust, as basic (something even an infant can have just by being in a state of dependence, or grace).
 
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shturt678

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Fiducia means trust, reliability. While fidelis means faithful, loyal. In English Fidelity is the quality of being faithful or loyal. Fidelis (Latin) and Fidelity (English) are an excellent match as source-language-word to host-language-word in translation.


Catholics define faith thus:
FAITH is Both a gift of God and a human act by which the believer gives personal adherence to God who invites his response, and freely assents to the whole truth that God has revealed. It is this revelation of God which the Church proposes for our belief, and which we profess in the Creed, celebrate in the sacraments, live by right conduct that fulfils the twofold commandment of charity (as specified in the ten commandments), and respond to in our prayer of faith. Faith is both a theological virtue given by God as grace, and an obligation which flows from the first commandment of God.
Also the following is offered by way of emphasis and explanation:
Faith is first of all a personal adherence of man to God. At the same time, and inseparably, it is a free assent to the whole truth that God has revealed. As personal adherence to God and assent to his truth, Christian faith differs from our faith in any human person. It is right and just to entrust oneself wholly to God and to believe absolutely what he says. It would be futile and false to place such faith in a creature.
Fides is the Latin translation of the Greek πίστις (See Matthew 15:28 in the Vulgate and Greek NT for an example).


As one Catholic bishop quipped, "Faith is faith. Believing is just believing". The character you've put on Catholic views about faith in the quotes from your post (shown above) is incorrect. It is clear from both ancient and modern sources that Catholic teaching is that faith is trust, belief, and loyalty vested in God.

Now the valid pure Chai tea without mixing hot coffee inside. RCC's faith: fides caritate formata that justifies, ie, I already gave my non-modern Lutheran opinion of "faith" that justifies. Hope to see you at our next Chai tea meeting, ie, spelling, etc.? Just ol' old Jack's sometimers, or is it allstimers?
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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I've been Catholic for 10 years now and have yet to come across 'accountability partners' being practiced in the Catholic context. What we do have is the Sacrament of Reconciliation and it's my thought that, in the absence of authentic Catholic teaching or practice, substitutes will arise. For example, in the absence of confession, we have accountability partners. Priests have been replaced by 'worship leaders', the sanctuary has become a stage, stained glass windows are now show lights, and the Holy Eucharist has been converted to a pre-filled,sealed individual communion cup of grape juice (but only the best freshest juice). It's an interesting study finding what men have come up with to fill the void where authentic Catholic belief or practice once existed.

And all of that stuff is horrible and makes me cringe, and I absolutely think the sacrament of reconciliation (what we Lutherans would call the sacrament of confession and absolution) should be the primary context for counseling and moral improvement. But I have definitely encountered good, firm Catholics who have secondary moral safeguards in the form of accountability partners, and I really don't see the problem with that as long as it doesn't lead to a neglect of the sacrament of reconciliation.
 
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Albion

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As usual, our friend contrasts an idealized Roman Catholicism with the oddest trends among whatever "non-Catholic" churches he can think of, implying that these abberations are typical of reformed Christianity.

If we wanted to play that game, we could say with mock sincerity that we are glad that our churches have dignified worship services instead of those sacrilegious polka and mariachi masses, priests wearing sarapes instead of real Eucharistic vestments, and with the communion railings stripped from the church buildings. The things men have come up with! :D
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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Fiducia means trust, reliability. While fidelis means faithful, loyal. In English Fidelity is the quality of being faithful or loyal. Fidelis (Latin) and Fidelity (English) are an excellent match as source-language-word to host-language-word in translation.


Catholics define faith thus:
FAITH is Both a gift of God and a human act by which the believer gives personal adherence to God who invites his response, and freely assents to the whole truth that God has revealed. It is this revelation of God which the Church proposes for our belief, and which we profess in the Creed, celebrate in the sacraments, live by right conduct that fulfils the twofold commandment of charity (as specified in the ten commandments), and respond to in our prayer of faith. Faith is both a theological virtue given by God as grace, and an obligation which flows from the first commandment of God.
Also the following is offered by way of emphasis and explanation:
Faith is first of all a personal adherence of man to God. At the same time, and inseparably, it is a free assent to the whole truth that God has revealed. As personal adherence to God and assent to his truth, Christian faith differs from our faith in any human person. It is right and just to entrust oneself wholly to God and to believe absolutely what he says. It would be futile and false to place such faith in a creature.
Fides is the Latin translation of the Greek πίστις (See Matthew 15:28 in the Vulgate and Greek NT for an example).


As one Catholic bishop quipped, "Faith is faith. Believing is just believing". The character you've put on Catholic views about faith in the quotes from your post (shown above) is incorrect. It is clear from both ancient and modern sources that Catholic teaching is that faith is trust, belief, and loyalty vested in God.

Could you please provide citations for the above? The background to my post is a monthly discussion held between members of Concordia Seminary and Kenrick-Glennon Seminary, St. Louis.

Then again, nothing in the above actually suggests that faith is itself fidelity, but rather that faith is one of the infused supernatural virtues (alongside hope and love) that leads to fidelity. For Lutherans and the Reformed, faith is itself fiducia, having itself the character of fidelity.
 
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Rick Otto

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I've been Catholic for 10 years now and have yet to come across 'accountability partners' being practiced in the Catholic context. What we do have is the Sacrament of Reconciliation and it's my thought that, in the absence of authentic Catholic teaching or practice, substitutes will arise. For example, in the absence of confession, we have accountability partners. Priests have been replaced by 'worship leaders', the sanctuary has become a stage, stained glass windows are now show lights, and the Holy Eucharist has been converted to a pre-filled,sealed individual communion cup of grape juice (but only the best freshest juice). It's an interesting study finding what men have come up with to fill the void where authentic Catholic belief or practice once existed.
Gotta have the right tool for the job.:thumbsup:
It does seem like a continuum to me.
That's why I'm not just X-Catholic, I'm Post or Neo-Protestant, too.
I've got "Calvinist" soteriology, Zwinglian sacramentology, Invisible ecclesiology,... lol. I know show biz when I'm seein' it. I rang those chimes as an altar boy & wore the cassock.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Technically, Lutherans are the ones that contend that saving faith contains not only notia (knowledge) and assensus (assent), but ficudia (fidelity).

Fiducia means trust, reliability. While fidelis means faithful, loyal. In English Fidelity is the quality of being faithful or loyal. Fidelis (Latin) and Fidelity (English) are an excellent match as source-language-word to host-language-word in translation.
The Catholic definition of faith only includes the first two,

Catholics define faith thus:
FAITH is Both a gift of God and a human act by which the believer gives personal adherence to God who invites his response, and freely assents to the whole truth that God has revealed. It is this revelation of God which the Church proposes for our belief, and which we profess in the Creed, celebrate in the sacraments, live by right conduct that fulfils the twofold commandment of charity (as specified in the ten commandments), and respond to in our prayer of faith. Faith is both a theological virtue given by God as grace, and an obligation which flows from the first commandment of God. -- Catechism of the Catholic Church (glossary)
Also the following is offered by way of emphasis and explanation:
Catechism of the Catholic Church (paragraph #150) Faith is first of all a personal adherence of man to God. At the same time, and inseparably, it is a free assent to the whole truth that God has revealed. As personal adherence to God and assent to his truth, Christian faith differs from our faith in any human person. It is right and just to entrust oneself wholly to God and to believe absolutely what he says. It would be futile and false to place such faith in a creature.
Fides is the Latin translation of the Greek πίστις (See Matthew 15:28 in the Vulgate and Greek NT for an example).
which is why it is so important to place fidelity under the headings of hope and love (works).

As one Catholic bishop quipped, "Faith is faith. Believing is just believing". The character you've put on Catholic views about faith in the quotes from your post (shown above) is incorrect. It is clear from both ancient and modern sources that Catholic teaching is that faith is trust, belief, and loyalty vested in God.
There is further debate between Lutherans and Reformed as to the essential nature of faith. While Lutherans and Reformed both agree that full, mature faith involves fidelity as well as knowledge and assent, the Reformed tend to see assent as the more important part (giving rise to the Calvinist-Arminian debate over the origin of that assent) whereas Lutherans tend to see fidelity, or trust, as basic (something even an infant can have just by being in a state of dependence, or grace).
Could you please provide citations for the above? The background to my post is a monthly discussion held between members of Concordia Seminary and Kenrick-Glennon Seminary, St. Louis.

Then again, nothing in the above actually suggests that faith is itself fidelity, but rather that faith is one of the infused supernatural virtues (alongside hope and love) that leads to fidelity. For Lutherans and the Reformed, faith is itself fiducia, having itself the character of fidelity.

The blue text in my post comes from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The first blue quote is from the glossary. The second is from paragraph #150. I've inserted the citations in red text in the above quote. The observations about the meaning of Latin words are derived from knowledge of Latin and standard Latin-English lexicons. The quote from the Catholic Bishop was taken from the Catholic Encyclopaedia's article on faith.
 
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The blue text in my post comes from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The first blue quote is from the glossary. The second is from paragraph #150. I've inserted the citations in red text in the above quote.

Thank you very much. Very helpful.

The observations about the meaning of Latin words are derived from knowledge of Latin and standard Latin-English lexicons. The quote from the Catholic Bishop was taken from the Catholic Encyclopaedia's article on faith.

Of course you were always correct on these matters. No need for clarification there; you are of course correct.

But I still contend that none of these citations demonstrate that Catholics believe fiducia is itself part of the virtue faith, and that many Catholic seminarians I know would be surprised to hear it.
 
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Thank you very much. Very helpful.

Of course you were always correct on these matters. No need for clarification there; you are of course correct.

But I still contend that none of these citations demonstrate that Catholics believe fiducia is itself part of the virtue faith, and that many Catholic seminarians I know would be surprised to hear it.

It was not I that said fiducia was either present in or implied by fides. I spoke of fidelis in the context of saint Paul's use of pistis; specifically that for saint Paul faith always implies (or more correctly incorporates) fidelity. One does not have faith if it is not marked by fidelity. That is, in my understanding, the core truth in Paul's teaching about faith and its role in justification (and instrumentally for salvation).
 
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It was not I that said fiducia was either present in or implied by fides. I spoke of fidelis in the context of saint Paul's use of pistis; specifically that for saint Paul faith always implies (or more correctly incorporates) fidelity. One does not have faith if it is not marked by fidelity. That is, in my understanding, the core truth in Paul's teaching about faith and its role in justification (and instrumentally for salvation).

My understanding has been that fidelity is part of the virtues of hope and love in Catholic understanding, not faith. I know that seems linguistically unlikely, but it is what I have learned from Catholic seminarians, and what is implied by a Catholic reading of James 2.
 
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My understanding has been that fidelity is part of the virtues of hope and love in Catholic understanding, not faith. I know that seems linguistically unlikely, but it is what I have learned from Catholic seminarians, and what is implied by a Catholic reading of James 2.

I cannot speak for the seminarians but I can say that my own reading (as a Catholic) of saint James is that for him pistis is separated from fidelity when it is 'dead' and thus the pistis of demons (which partakes of the quality of knowledge and certainty) does not incorporate any fidelity to God. Thus James can say that "But the demons also have faith, and they tremble greatly. (καὶ τὰ δαιμόνια πιστεύουσι καὶ φρίσσουσι.)". Of course James contends that such faith (pistis) is dead. He looks for a living faith and such a faith shows itself to be alive by working. It is thus that saint James approaches the same meaning for Christian faith as saint paul; namely that faith incorporates fidelity to God.
 
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I cannot speak for the seminarians but I can say that my own reading (as a Catholic) of saint James is that for him pistis is separated from fidelity when it is 'dead' and thus the pistis of demons (which partakes of the quality of knowledge and certainty) does not incorporate any fidelity to God. Thus James can say that "But the demons also have faith, and they tremble greatly. (καὶ τὰ δαιμόνια πιστεύουσι καὶ φρίσσουσι.)". Of course James contends that such faith (pistis) is dead. He looks for a living faith and such a faith shows itself to be alive by working. It is thus that saint James approaches the same meaning for Christian faith as saint paul; namely that faith incorporates fidelity to God.

Interesting. Can you PM me on this? I will try to get in touch with some of the Kennerick guys to answer my questions. I thought R.C. Sproul (yes, go ahead, laugh here) had appropriate references to Trent on this matter, but I'm going to have to talk to them, and would have to further derail the thread. Hopefully later I can start a thread on Lutheran/Reformed vs. Catholic understandings of faith with a bit more info. I've been totally out of theology for the past six months (been trying too hard to refresh my knowledge of nineteenth century American history for entirely different reasons).
 
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Interesting. Can you PM me on this? I will try to get in touch with some of the Kennerick guys to answer my questions. I thought R.C. Sproul (yes, go ahead, laugh here) had appropriate references to Trent on this matter, but I'm going to have to talk to them, and would have to further derail the thread. Hopefully later I can start a thread on Lutheran/Reformed vs. Catholic understandings of faith with a bit more info. I've been totally out of theology for the past six months (been trying too hard to refresh my knowledge of nineteenth century American history for entirely different reasons).

I doubt we'd derail this thread. It's about the vast variety of protestant errors and inventions, after all ;)
 
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Interesting. Can you PM me on this? I will try to get in touch with some of the Kennerick guys to answer my questions. I thought R.C. Sproul (yes, go ahead, laugh here) had appropriate references to Trent on this matter, but I'm going to have to talk to them, and would have to further derail the thread. Hopefully later I can start a thread on Lutheran/Reformed vs. Catholic understandings of faith with a bit more info. I've been totally out of theology for the past six months (been trying too hard to refresh my knowledge of nineteenth century American history for entirely different reasons).

I doubt we'd derail this thread. It's about the vast variety of protestant errors and inventions, after all ;)

GCC and Coffee, it sounds very relevant to me!:thumbsup:
 
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