Protestant errors and inventions (3)

[MoreCoffee]

Looks like another error about the bible was disclosed...

1. A bible with only 66 books.
2. The list of books constituting the bible is implied by the books themselves.
3. The King James Version of the bible is the only trustworthy bible in English.
   Rick Flanders: Why We Use the King James Version of the Bible (Lancaster Baptist Church) - YouTube
4. Jesus spoke in parables most of the time so his words are mostly metaphorical.
5. Sola Scriptura - In English "Scripture alone" is the theory (unsupported by sacred scripture) that "all things necessary for God's glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture.
   [*]Prima Scriptura - A doctrine teaching that besides canonical scripture, there are other guides for what a believer should believe, and how he or she should live; the ways of knowing or understanding God and his will, that do not originate from canonized scripture, are in a second place, perhaps helpful in interpreting that scripture, but testable by the canon and correctable by it, if they seem to contradict the scriptures.
   [*]Personal interpretation of scripture as normative (see J I Packer's, FUNDAMENTALISM AND THE WORD OF GOD)
   [*]Arminianism.
   Arminianism is based on the theological ideas of the previously Dutch Reformed theologian Jacobus Arminius (1560–1609) and his historic supporters known as the Remonstrants. ... They asserted that:
   

   1. election (and condemnation on the day of judgment) was conditioned by the rational faith or nonfaith of man;
   2. the Atonement, while qualitatively adequate for all men, is efficacious only for the man of faith;
   3. unaided by the Holy Spirit, no person is able to respond to God’s will;
   4. grace is resistible; and
   5. believers are able to resist sin but are not beyond the possibility of falling from grace.

   ​
   [*]Faith alone - In Latin "sola fide" is the theory (unsupported by scripture fact) that salvation is obtained by faith alone.
   [*]Antinomianism.
   In Christianity, an antinomian is "one who holds that under the gospel dispensation of grace the moral law is of no use or obligation because faith alone is necessary to salvation". ... Antinomianism in modern times is commonly seen as the theological opposite to Legalism or Works righteousness, the notion that obedience to religious law earns salvation. This makes antinomianism an exaggeration of justification by faith alone. -- Wikipedia​
   [*]Total depravity - one of the five points of Calvinism (All human beings are affected by sin in every area of thought and conduct so that nothing that comes out of anyone apart from the regenerating grace of God can please God. As far as our relationships to God are concerned, we are all so ruined by sin that no one can properly understand either God or God's ways. Nor do we seek God, unless He is first at work within us to lead us to do so).
   [*]Unconditional election - second point of Calvinism (If sinners are as helpless in their depravity as the Bible says they are, unable to know and unwilling to seek God, then the only way they could possibly be saved is for God to take the initiative to change and save them. This is what election means. It is God choosing to save those who, apart from His sovereign choice and subsequent action, certainly would perish.).
   [*]Limited atonement - third point of Calvinism (Reformed theology stresses that Jesus actually atoned for the sins of those the Father had chosen. He actually propitiated the wrath of God toward His people by taking their judgment upon Himself, actually redeemed them, and actually reconciled those specific persons to God. A better name for "limited" atonement would be "particular" or "specific" redemption.).
   [*]Irresistible grace - fourth point of Calvinism (When God works in our hearts, regenerating us and creating a renewed will within, then what was undesirable before becomes highly desirable, and we run to Jesus just as previously we ran away from Him. Fallen sinners do resist God's grace, but His regenerating grace is effectual. It overcomes sin and accomplishes God's purpose).
   [*]Perseverance of the saints - the fifth point of Calvinism (You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.)
   [*]Once saved always saved.
   1. Once saved always saved even when one denies the faith some time after being saved.
   2. Rededications even though once saved always saved.
   [*]Double predestination. [In the Reformed view God from all eternity decrees some to election and positively intervenes in their lives to work regeneration and faith by a monergistic work of grace. To the non-elect God withholds this monergistic work of grace, passing them by and leaving them to themselves. He does not monergistically work sin or unbelief in their lives. Even in the case of the "hardening" of the sinners' already recalcitrant hearts, God does not, as Luther stated, "work evil in us (for hardening is working evil) by creating fresh evil in us." -- R. C. Sproul]
   [*]Lapsarianism:The logical order of God's decrees in Calvinist theology is the study of the logical order (in God's mind, before Creation) of the decree to ordain or allow the fall of man and reprobation in relation to his decree to elect and save sinners. Several opposing positions have been proposed, all of which have names with the Latin root lapsus meaning fall.
   1. Supralapsaranism.
   2. Infralapsarianism/Sublapsarianism.
   [*]Penal substitutionary atonement - Penal substitutionary atonement refers to the doctrine that Christ died on the cross as a substitute for sinners. God imputed the guilt of our sins to Christ, and he, in our place, bore the punishment that we deserve. This was a full payment for sins, which satisfied both the wrath and the righteousness of God, so that He could forgive sinners without compromising His own holy standard.
   [*]Ordinances/Anti-sacramentalism.
   [*]Infant dedication (not baptism).
   [*]It isn't baptism unless one is submerged.
   [*]Only people old enough to say the sinner's prayer can be baptised.
   [*]One is born again by saying & believing the sinner's prayer (or a near equivalent).
   [*]Believer's baptism as a public testimony to one's faith but not as the washing away of one's sins nor as the means by which God brings about the birth from above.
   [*]Covenant baptism as a sign and symbol of inclusion into the new covenant community but not as the means by which God gives sanctifying grace.
   [*]The Lord's supper as sign and symbol but not as the body and blood of the Lord.
   [*]Two greater and five lesser Sacraments.
   [*]Dispensing with baptism and the Lord's supper altogether. [A few groups have dropped all sacraments.]
   [*]Errors about The rapture
   1. A pre tribulation rapture.
   2. A mid tribulation rapture.
   [*]Errors about the seven churches in the Apocalypse of saint John. These errors are not formal components in denominational statements of belief although they are commonly held among some groups within Protestantism.
   1. The seven Churches represent seven ages.
   2. The seven Churches prove that denominations existed in the first century AD.
   [*]A future seven year reign of anti-christ with three and a half years of Israelite temple worship.
   [*]Dispensationalism: scripture must be rightly divided by applying a scheme of dispensations to it; usually seven dispensations are taken as normative but other additional dispensations are sometimes included.
   [*]The sermon on the mount as "old testament teaching" that's not applicable under the new covenant.
   [*]Sermon centric worship - being an explanation of the meaning of the text of scripture or a lesson on morals or doctrine for the instruction of the congregation - is the central act of worship in the gathering of the Lord's people on the Lord's day.
   [*]The One True Church is not a visible institution.
   
   1. The One True Church is made up of all true believers scattered throughout all denominations.
   [*]Denominationalism.
   [*]Rejection of the threefold office in the church. Deacon, Presbyter, and Bishop are the offices identified in sacred scripture and present in the church from the beginning. Some protestant bodies reduce this to Deacon and Elder some to Deacon and Pastor and some teach Deacon, Elder, and Pastor with Pastor distinguished only by being the "teaching elder" in a congregation.
   [*]Rejection of clerical laity distinction in the church.
   [*]The pulpit ought to be the focus of a church building's architecture and the table for use on communion ought to be to the side or located in a different part of the church because there is no altar in the church and no sacrifice is made in a church service.
   [*]Equivocating "worship" and "worship service" - meaning that worship in a small group consisting of two or more is the same as the 'worship service' one would normally experience on a Sunday in a church [building]. [Not a formal doctrine but a widely held view of Christian worship among some of those in denominations and also some in non-denominational and other groups.]
   [*]Being a Christian while eschewing any church affiliation. Is the belief that one need not be associated with any church or group. While this is not a denominational belief it is sufficiently widespread to make a kind of theology of its own.
   [*]Emerging church movement; Emerging churches are fluid, hard to define, and varied; they contrast themselves with what has gone before by using the term "inherited church." Key themes of the emerging church are couched in the language of reform, Praxis-oriented lifestyles, Post-evangelical thought, and incorporation or acknowledgement of political and Post-modern elements. ... -- from Wikipedia
   [*]Prosperity gospel: Prosperity theology (sometimes referred to as the prosperity gospel, the health and wealth gospel, or the gospel of success) is a Christian religious doctrine that financial blessing is the will of God for Christians, and that faith, positive speech, and donations to Christian ministries will always increase one's material wealth.
   [*]Congregations electing their ministers.
   [*]Seeker sensitive churches.
   [*]Accountability partners.
   [*]Altar calls.
   [*]Church discipline effectively nullified because of the difficulty of enforcement in a multi-denominational community.
   [*]Temperance movement. ... Alcohol is wicked, "a devil's brew".
   [*]Old covenant Dietary laws applied to new covenant Christians: Christians shall have no shellfish, crustaceans, pork, or any 'unclean meat' because they are forbidden in the Law of Moses.
   [*]The papacy is the antichrist.
   [*]A specific pope will be the antichrist.
   [*]Michael the Archangel and Jesus being the same person.
   [*]Heaven being in the Orion nebula.
   [*]Soul Sleep: Death is an unconscious, sleep-like state. When Jesus Christ comes again, He will resurrect the dead who believe in Him and will take them to heaven. The dead who are unbelievers will be resurrected 1000 years later.
   [*]For a period of a thousand years the earth will be utterly desolate and only Satan and his angels will be on earth. At the end of the thousand years the the Holy City in heaven will descend to earth. The unrighteous dead will be resurrected and with Satan and his angels, they will surround the Holy City to attack God and His people. God will destroy Satan and his followers, hence removing sin forever.
   [*]Trail of blood - also known as Baptist successionism. It is the theory (unsupported by fact) that Jesus Christ is the founder of the Baptist denomination (Which in fact started around 1605 AD in England).
   [*]The Jesuit oath - An absurd fake oath that among other things says "make and wage relentless war, secretly and openly, against all heretics, Protestants and Masons".
   [*]Oneness (denying the Trinity) - some might think this is a non-christian sect's doctrine while others are inclined to believe that Oneness Pentecostalism is within the confines of Christianity.
   [*]Errors about indulgences:
   1. Indulgences forgive sins. This is more of a common error held by some Protestants because they either do not know what an indulgence is or because they believe anti-catholic propaganda. An indulgence does not cause any sins to be forgiven.
   2. The Catholic Church taught that indulgences were to be sold. This too is a common error held by some but not backed up by the facts of history. The Catholic Church does not and never did teach that one could buy an indulgence. But, alas, some unscrupulous people no doubt did sell them.

 

[Root of Jesse]

No. I mean why is this only found in your church? Hate to break it to you but your church does not teach what Christ taught.

So you're belief is that we're not a Christian Church?

(Getting to the crux of the matter now...)

I don't recall the deposit of faith being given away lol. All who hear His voice and come are given a measure of faith. The truth is in the writen word, and that word is to be taught by faithful men. All who hear and walk accordingly are a part of the church.

Christ told his apostles "Who hears you hears me." Note he didn't say "If you write what I'm saying, you will be writing the faith" or some such.

At least you got the part about the truth being taught by faithful men, those who the Holy Spirit has ordained...

Sunday Sacredness
Veneration of Saints
Eucharist
Papal System
Immortality of the Soul

I do believe that sums them up nicely. I may be missing a few but I'm certain they'd fit in there somewhere.

How do any of these contradict Scripture?

Ok.



People get fuzzy because people don't want to be politically correct. In some cases though it is possible to say the same thing, have two different meanings, and both be correct. That however is seldom true when it comes to doctrinal differences. We have one word. We serve One God. It simply isn't possible for all of us to have such a variety about what a single text means, and we all be correct.

So we believe that what was meant by words when they were spoken carry more weight than what is meant by the same words now. And we have writers who heard those words, knew what they meant, and wrote about it. Under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Anything that contradicts Scripture, though, was thrown out. Some Christians were thrown with those contradictions.

 

[Root of Jesse]

This doens't work for the time Jesus was in. They didn't have rebar lol. And even still the foundation isn't the rebar. You can lay a foundation without using rebar.

What visible component for God did Israel have? And I have read the OT. The reason why Israel was constantly falling away from God wasn't because there wasn't a visible presence, it was because they discarded His law. Let that sink in for a second.

Right, and they didn't have a coherent authority, which made it easier to follow their own counsel.

Where? As already stated, when Christ left, the representative that replaced Him was the Holy Spirit.

Did Jesus say "Upon this Holy Spirit I will build my Church"? No, He gave it a visible component, flesh and blood. The apostles, and their successors. And promised the Holy Spirit to guide them-his ordained representatives.

 

[Stryder06]

Looks like we have something else in common

Right, and they didn't have a coherent authority, which made it easier to follow their own counsel.

Incorrect. They had a very coherent authority, but they desired to imitate the nations surrounding them. Turning their back on God's law is what lead them to apostasy. Again, let that sink in for a few.

Did Jesus say "Upon this Holy Spirit I will build my Church"? No, He gave it a visible component, flesh and blood. The apostles, and their successors. And promised the Holy Spirit to guide them-his ordained representatives.

No, Jesus said:

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth...

and

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

So yeah, Jesus did leave someone in His place. It wasn't Peter though. As these texts point out, it was the Holy Spirit.

 

[Stryder06]

So you're belief is that we're not a Christian Church?

(Getting to the crux of the matter now...)

Not sure I'm allowed to answer that question. I will say that I believe there are a lot of Christians in your church.

Christ told his apostles "Who hears you hears me." Note he didn't say "If you write what I'm saying, you will be writing the faith" or some such.

As if that would be necessary. Whatever they would say or write would have to fall in line with what had already been said, and what had already been written.

How do any of these contradict Scripture?

Exodus 20:8-11
Isa 8: 19, 20
Ecc 9:5
Lev 17:11, 12

So we believe that what was meant by words when they were spoken carry more weight than what is meant by the same words now. And we have writers who heard those words, knew what they meant, and wrote about it. Under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Anything that contradicts Scripture, though, was thrown out. Some Christians were thrown with those contradictions.

Saying someone did something under the guidance of the Holy Spirit is easy. It is upon us however to test those teachings according to the scripture to make sure it is true.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Not sure I'm allowed to answer that question. I will say that I believe there are a lot of Christians in your church.

Not sure what that means...

As if that would be necessary. Whatever they would say or write would have to fall in line with what had already been said, and what had already been written.

Yup. And so it is with the Catholic Church.

Exodus 20:8-11
Isa 8: 19, 20
Ecc 9:5
Lev 17:11, 12

So in what way do we violate Exodus 20:8-11?
And in what way do we inquire of soothsayers or converse with the dead?

Saying someone did something under the guidance of the Holy Spirit is easy. It is upon us however to test those teachings according to the scripture to make sure it is true.

But when Christ promises the Holy Spirit to the apostles in Scripture, it's another matter, wouldn't you agree?

 

[Root of Jesse]

Looks like we have something else in common



Incorrect. They had a very coherent authority, but they desired to imitate the nations surrounding them. Turning their back on God's law is what lead them to apostasy. Again, let that sink in for a few.



No, Jesus said:

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth...

and

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

So yeah, Jesus did leave someone in His place. It wasn't Peter though. As these texts point out, it was the Holy Spirit.

The funny thing is that He was speaking to the Apostles when he said he shall give "you another Comforter,,," He gave the Apostles the Spirit of Truth. The Apostles, in turn, knew, somehow, that they had to maintain their ranks, and when Judas committed suicide, they prayed, and chose Matthias.

 

[98cwitr]

Let us continue

1. The sermon - being an explanation of the meaning of the text of scripture or a lesson on morals or doctrine for the instruction of the congregation - is the central act of worship in the gathering of the Lord's people on the Lord's day.
2. The pulpit ought to be the focus of a church building's architecture and the table for use on communion ought to be to the side or located in a different part of the church because there is no altar in the church and no sacrifice is made in a church service.
3. Sola Scriptura - In English "Scripture alone" is the theory (unsupported by sacred scripture) that "all things necessary for God's glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: to which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or apostolic tradition".
4. Prima Scriptura - A doctrine teaching that besides canonical scripture, there are other guides for what a believer should believe, and how he or she should live; the ways of knowing or understanding God and his will, that do not originate from canonized scripture, are in a second place, perhaps helpful in interpreting that scripture, but testable by the canon and correctable by it, if they seem to contradict the scriptures.[Editorial note: in many ways Prima Scriptura is an improvement over sola scriptura, it does, however, suffer from the core disadvantage of sola scriptura in that it is neither a teaching of scripture itself nor does it adequately deal with Apostolic Tradition and Magisterial authority.]
5. Personal & Private interpretation of scripture
6. Faith alone - In Latin "sola fide" is the theory (unsupported by scripture fact) that salvation is obtained by faith alone.
7. The One True Church is made up of all true believers scattered throughout all denominations.
8. The One True Church is not a visible institution.
9. Denominationalism
10. A bible with only 66 books.
11. Saint Paul's letters are not inspired.
12. Lone ranger Christianity - the belief that one need not be associated with any church or group. While this is not a denominational belief it is sufficiently widespread to make a kind of theology of its own.
13. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto. [This is rather similar to Total Depravity (see below) it may be double counting let me know if you think that it is.]
14. Total depravity - one of the five points of Calvinism (All human beings are affected by sin in every area of thought and conduct so that nothing that comes out of anyone apart from the regenerating grace of God can please God. As far as our relationships to God are concerned, we are all so ruined by sin that no one can properly understand either God or God's ways. Nor do we seek God, unless He is first at work within us to lead us to do so).
15. Unconditional election - second point of Calvinism (If sinners are as helpless in their depravity as the Bible says they are, unable to know and unwilling to seek God, then the only way they could possibly be saved is for God to take the initiative to change and save them. This is what election means. It is God choosing to save those who, apart from His sovereign choice and subsequent action, certainly would perish.).
16. Limited atonement - third point of Calvinism (Reformed theology stresses that Jesus actually atoned for the sins of those the Father had chosen. He actually propitiated the wrath of God toward His people by taking their judgment upon Himself, actually redeemed them, and actually reconciled those specific persons to God. A better name for "limited" atonement would be "particular" or "specific" redemption.).
17. Irresistible grace - fourth point of Calvinism (When God works in our hearts, regenerating us and creating a renewed will within, then what was undesirable before becomes highly desirable, and we run to Jesus just as previously we ran away from Him. Fallen sinners do resist God's grace, but His regenerating grace is effectual. It overcomes sin and accomplishes God's purpose).
18. Perseverance of the saints - the fifth point of Calvinism (You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.) [This belief is similar to OSAS but not quite the same.]
19. Double predestination.
20. Lapsarian views:
    1. Supralapsaranism
    2. Infralapsarianism
    3. Sublapsarianism.
21. Penal substitutionary atonement - A widespread Reformed conception of the Atonement is that in Christ’s Passion and death, God the Father poured out all of His wrath for the sins of the elect, on Christ the Son. In Christ’s Passion and death, Christ bore the punishment of the Father’s wrath that the elect deserved for their sins.
22. Prosperity gospel
23. Ordinances (instead of sacraments?)
24. Baby dedication (not baptism) in a worship-service. [This is a common practise in many groups but rarely has a formal doctrine accompanying it as an explanation of why it is done.]
25. Believer's baptism as a public testimony to one's faith but not as the washing away of one's sins nor as the means by which God brings about the birth from above.
26. Covenant baptism as a sign and symbol of inclusion into the new covenant community but not as the means by which God gives sanctifying grace.
27. The Lord's supper as sign and symbol but not as the body and blood of the Lord.
28. Two greater and five lesser Sacraments
29. Dispensing with baptism and the Lord's supper altogether. [A few groups have dropped all sacraments.]
30. The rapture
31. The Rapture divided into three different flavours:
    1. A pre tribulation rapture.
    2. A mid tribulation rapture.
    3. A post tribulation rapture.
32. A seven year reign of anti-christ with three and a half years of Israelite temple worship.
33. Dispensations through which scripture must be rightly divided.
34. The sermon on the mount as "old testament teaching" that's not applicable under the new covenant.
35. Once saved always saved.
    1. Once saved always saved even when one denies the faith some time after being saved.
    2. Rededications even though once saved always saved.
36. Congregations electing their ministers.
37. Seeker sensitive churches.
38. Accountability partners.
39. Altar calls.
40. Church discipline effectively nullified because of the difficulty of enforcement in a multi-denominational community. [You can't excommunicate a protestant - seems to be an observation about the effective impossibility of excommunicating or otherwise disciplining a person in one denomination if they can hop over to some other denomination and fellowship there as if nothing had happened.]
41. Alcohol is wicked, "a devil's brew".
42. Christians shall have no shellfish, crustaceans, pork, or any 'unclean meat' because they are forbidden in the Law of Moses.
43. It isn't baptism unless one is submerged.
44. Only people old enough to say the sinner's prayer can be baptised.
45. One is born again by saying & believing the sinner's prayer (or a near equivalent).
46. The papacy is the antichrist.
47. A specific pope will be the antichrist.
48. Trail of blood - also known as Baptist successionism. It is the theory (unsupported by fact) that Jesus Christ is the founder of the Baptist denomination (Which in fact started around 1605 AD in England).
49. The Jesuit oath - An absurd fake oath that among other things says "make and wage relentless war, secretly and openly, against all heretics, Protestants and Masons".
50. Michael the Archangel and Jesus being the same person.
51. Blessed assurance - possibly a variant on the perseverance of the saints, like once saved always saved.
52. Oneness (denying the Trinity) - some might think this is a non-christian sect's doctrine while others are inclined to believe that Oneness Pentecostalism is within the confines of Christianity.
53. Heaven being in the Orion nebula.
54. Death is an unconscious, sleep-like state. When Jesus Christ comes again, He will resurrect the dead who believe in Him and will take them to heaven. The dead who are unbelievers will be resurrected 1000 years later.
55. For a period of a thousand years the earth will be utterly desolate and only Satan and his angels will be on earth. At the end of the thousand years the the Holy City in heaven will descend to earth. The unrighteous dead will be resurrected and with Satan and his angels, they will surround the Holy City to attack God and His people. God will destroy Satan and his followers, hence removing sin forever.
56. Equivocating "worship" and "worship service" - meaning that worship in a small group consisting of two or more is the same as the 'worship service' one would normally experience on a Sunday in a church [building]. [Not a formal doctrine but a widely held view of Christian worship among some of those in denominations and also some in non-denominational and other groups.]

Another day, another continuation thread

A BIG AMEN to points #6 and #7!

 

[bbbbbbb]

A BIG AMEN to points #6 and #7!

 

[Root of Jesse]

A BIG AMEN to points #6 and #7!

Yes, we agree. They're errors. Amen to that, brother!

 

[shturt678]

Rom.3:28, solis fides, "faith" is the positve advantage, the revelation of the one and only means for the removal of sin, God's righteousness through "faith" in Christ. yet we must not space out the negative side, Rom.3:1-20 resulting in a justifying "faith" effected thru a genuine repentance.

My uncomfortable, lose money point: Therefore one must turn from sin to the faith!, ie, not just turn to the faith as 101% on this thread, for example only, have done.

Hence thumbs down with points 6 & 7

Just ol' old Jack trying to batten down the hatches, ie, the storm of what it thinks that it really is, what only pretends to be coming.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Rom.3:28, solis fides,

Sorry brother shturt678, but you got the text wrong, it says "arbitramur enim iustificari hominem per fidem sine operibus legis" (Romans 3:28) not a word about solis.

"faith" is the positve advantage, the revelation of the one and only means for the removal of sin, God's righteousness through "faith" in Christ. yet we must not space out the negative side, Rom.3:1-20 resulting in a justifying "faith" effected thru a genuine repentance.

Faith and fidelity go together like hand and glove in saint Paul's letters. One does not understand what faith is if one does not grasp that fidelity to God is at its core and without which faith is dead.

My uncomfortable, lose money point: Therefore one must turn from sin to the faith!, ie, not just turn to the faith as 101% on this thread, for example only, have done.

Hence thumbs down with points 6 & 7

The list was revised so they are no longer points 6 & 7 but rather points #9 and #36.

Just ol' old Jack trying to batten down the hatches, ie, the storm of what it thinks that it really is, what only pretends to be coming.

 

[shturt678]

Sorry brother shturt678, but you got the text wrong, it says "arbitramur enim iustificari hominem per fidem sine operibus legis" (Romans 3:28) not a word about solis.

Good job, ie, hard to startle me, ie you did, I agape it! Rom.3;28 Your absolutely correct "alone" is not found in the Greek text and yet is there. The vocable is not there, the sense is. If faith alone is not the sense, what else goes with it? And you already responded to this one. Great!, ie, how does it feel to work together with an ol' old non-modern Lutheran?

Faith and fidelity go together like hand and glove in saint Paul's letters. One does not understand what faith is if one does not grasp that fidelity to God is at its core and without which faith is dead.

I thought you folks went more with fiducia, and not so much with fidelis. Thank you for bringing me up to speed.

The list was revised so they are no longer points 6 & 7 but rather points #9 and #36.

Got it! I asked my good RCC brother and friend what he believed and he replied: "Whatever the church believes." You know what I then asked him, and even his response, ie, "I do not know, but nevertheless believe what the church believes." Thanks to him, I understand modern-Lutherans and RCCs better. Modern-Luth. the same mindset.

Who was it that said: "Never give in" mindset saying, that sometimers again

Just ol' old allstimers Jack

 

[Rick Otto]

It was Churchill, at least.
I'm sure there's been others...

 

[shturt678]

It was Churchill, at least.
I'm sure there's been others...

After one hits about 50, "we shall never surrender," is more of the rule than the exception, ie, I've had it, ie, wwaaayyyyyyy past 50, and this is why the positions in the top level of hell are filled, ie, I put in for it long ago.

Just ol' old meningistic Jack (spelling?), eg, I think the Jews had this ailment too?

 

[Stryder06]

The funny thing is that He was speaking to the Apostles when he said he shall give "you another Comforter,,," He gave the Apostles the Spirit of Truth. The Apostles, in turn, knew, somehow, that they had to maintain their ranks, and when Judas committed suicide, they prayed, and chose Matthias.

Fail to see what this has to do with my response. Jesus was speaking to the disciples when He said a lot of things, doens't make them any less applicable to us. But now that you bring it up, it does help to reinforce the fact that Peter would not have seen himself as the visible head, given that Jesus told them that His replacement/representative would be the Holy Spirit.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Fail to see what this has to do with my response. Jesus was speaking to the disciples when He said a lot of things, doens't make them any less applicable to us. But now that you bring it up, it does help to reinforce the fact that Peter would not have seen himself as the visible head, given that Jesus told them that His replacement/representative would be the Holy Spirit.

There's a difference between the disciples and the Apostles. What it has to do with the Apostles is that, by the act of ordination to the priesthood, the Apostles, in concert with St. Peter, have the Holy Spirit protecting them from teaching error to the Church.
Question: Why would Jesus replace the visible Him with something invisible, without including some visible component?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Do we need new entries in the list to cater for untrained pastors as preferable to trained ones? I am sure some groups probably eschew seminary and bible college trained folk as their pastors because they think that such training created 'devils disciples' rather than doctors of divinity.

Should I move the "one true church is invisible" entry up to number 8 or so, right after the bible errors? Like this:

1. A bible with only 66 books.
2. The list of books constituting the bible is implied by the books themselves.
3. The King James Version of the bible is the only trustworthy bible in English.
   Rick Flanders: Why We Use the King James Version of the Bible (Lancaster Baptist Church) - YouTube
4. Jesus spoke in parables most of the time so his words are mostly metaphorical.
5. Sola Scriptura - In English "Scripture alone" is the theory (unsupported by sacred scripture) that "all things necessary for God's glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture.
   [*]Prima Scriptura - A doctrine teaching that besides canonical scripture some other guides for what a believer should believe may helpful but scripture always retains the role of final arbiter of doctrine and practise.
   [*]Personal interpretation of scripture as normative (see J I Packer's, FUNDAMENTALISM AND THE WORD OF GOD)
   [*]The One True Church is not a visible institution.
   
   1. The One True Church is made up of all true believers scattered throughout all denominations.
   [*]Arminianism.
   Arminianism is based on the theological ideas of the previously Dutch Reformed theologian Jacobus Arminius (1560–1609) and his historic supporters known as the Remonstrants. ... They asserted that:
   

   1. election (and condemnation on the day of judgment) was conditioned by the rational faith or nonfaith of man;
   2. the Atonement, while qualitatively adequate for all men, is efficacious only for the man of faith;
   3. unaided by the Holy Spirit, no person is able to respond to God’s will;
   4. grace is resistible; and
   5. believers are able to resist sin but are not beyond the possibility of falling from grace.

   ​
   [*]Faith alone - In Latin "sola fide" is the theory (unsupported by scripture fact) that salvation is obtained by faith alone.
   [*]Antinomianism.
   In Christianity, an antinomian is "one who holds that under the gospel dispensation of grace the moral law is of no use or obligation because faith alone is necessary to salvation". ... Antinomianism in modern times is commonly seen as the theological opposite to Legalism or Works righteousness, the notion that obedience to religious law earns salvation. This makes antinomianism an exaggeration of justification by faith alone. -- Wikipedia​
   [*]Total depravity - one of the five points of Calvinism (All human beings are affected by sin in every area of thought and conduct so that nothing that comes out of anyone apart from the regenerating grace of God can please God. As far as our relationships to God are concerned, we are all so ruined by sin that no one can properly understand either God or God's ways. Nor do we seek God, unless He is first at work within us to lead us to do so).
   [*]Unconditional election - second point of Calvinism (If sinners are as helpless in their depravity as the Bible says they are, unable to know and unwilling to seek God, then the only way they could possibly be saved is for God to take the initiative to change and save them. This is what election means. It is God choosing to save those who, apart from His sovereign choice and subsequent action, certainly would perish.).
   [*]Limited atonement - third point of Calvinism (Reformed theology stresses that Jesus actually atoned for the sins of those the Father had chosen. He actually propitiated the wrath of God toward His people by taking their judgment upon Himself, actually redeemed them, and actually reconciled those specific persons to God. A better name for "limited" atonement would be "particular" or "specific" redemption.).
   [*]Irresistible grace - fourth point of Calvinism (When God works in our hearts, regenerating us and creating a renewed will within, then what was undesirable before becomes highly desirable, and we run to Jesus just as previously we ran away from Him. Fallen sinners do resist God's grace, but His regenerating grace is effectual. It overcomes sin and accomplishes God's purpose).
   [*]Perseverance of the saints - the fifth point of Calvinism (You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.)
   [*]Once saved always saved.
   1. Once saved always saved even when one denies the faith some time after being saved.
   2. Rededications even though once saved always saved.
   [*]Double predestination. [In the Reformed view God from all eternity decrees some to election and positively intervenes in their lives to work regeneration and faith by a monergistic work of grace. To the non-elect God withholds this monergistic work of grace, passing them by and leaving them to themselves. He does not monergistically work sin or unbelief in their lives. Even in the case of the "hardening" of the sinners' already recalcitrant hearts, God does not, as Luther stated, "work evil in us (for hardening is working evil) by creating fresh evil in us." -- R. C. Sproul]
   [*]Lapsarianism:The logical order of God's decrees in Calvinist theology is the study of the logical order (in God's mind, before Creation) of the decree to ordain or allow the fall of man and reprobation in relation to his decree to elect and save sinners. Several opposing positions have been proposed, all of which have names with the Latin root lapsus meaning fall.
   1. Supralapsaranism.
   2. Infralapsarianism/Sublapsarianism.
   [*]Penal substitutionary atonement - Penal substitutionary atonement refers to the doctrine that Christ died on the cross as a substitute for sinners. God imputed the guilt of our sins to Christ, and he, in our place, bore the punishment that we deserve. This was a full payment for sins, which satisfied both the wrath and the righteousness of God, so that He could forgive sinners without compromising His own holy standard.
   [*]Ordinances/Anti-sacramentalism.
   [*]Infant dedication (not baptism).
   [*]It isn't baptism unless one is submerged.
   [*]Only people old enough to say the sinner's prayer can be baptised.
   [*]One is born again by saying & believing the sinner's prayer (or a near equivalent).
   [*]Believer's baptism as a public testimony to one's faith but not as the washing away of one's sins nor as the means by which God brings about the birth from above.
   [*]Covenant baptism as a sign and symbol of inclusion into the new covenant community but not as the means by which God gives sanctifying grace.
   [*]The Lord's supper as sign and symbol but not as the body and blood of the Lord.
   [*]Two greater and five lesser Sacraments.
   [*]Dispensing with baptism and the Lord's supper altogether. [A few groups have dropped all sacraments.]
   [*]Errors about The rapture
   1. A pre tribulation rapture.
   2. A mid tribulation rapture.
   [*]Errors about the seven churches in the Apocalypse of saint John. These errors are not formal components in denominational statements of belief although they are commonly held among some groups within Protestantism.
   1. The seven Churches represent seven ages.
   2. The seven Churches prove that denominations existed in the first century AD.
   [*]A future seven year reign of anti-christ with three and a half years of Israelite temple worship.
   [*]Dispensationalism: scripture must be rightly divided by applying a scheme of dispensations to it; usually seven dispensations are taken as normative but other additional dispensations are sometimes included.
   [*]The sermon on the mount as "old testament teaching" that's not applicable under the new covenant.
   [*]Sermon centric worship - being an explanation of the meaning of the text of scripture or a lesson on morals or doctrine for the instruction of the congregation - is the central act of worship in the gathering of the Lord's people on the Lord's day.
   [*]Denominationalism.
   [*]Rejection of the threefold office in the church. Deacon, Presbyter, and Bishop are the offices identified in sacred scripture and present in the church from the beginning. Some protestant bodies reduce this to Deacon and Elder some to Deacon and Pastor and some teach Deacon, Elder, and Pastor with Pastor distinguished only by being the "teaching elder" in a congregation.
   [*]Rejection of clerical laity distinction in the church.
   [*]Seminary and Bible colleges damage one's faith and ought to be avoided.
   [*]Pastors and elders need not be graduates of a seminary or an accredited bible college.
   [*]The pulpit ought to be the focus of a church building's architecture and the table for use on communion ought to be to the side or located in a different part of the church because there is no altar in the church and no sacrifice is made in a church service.
   [*]Equivocating "worship" and "worship service" - meaning that worship in a small group consisting of two or more is the same as the 'worship service' one would normally experience on a Sunday in a church [building]. [Not a formal doctrine but a widely held view of Christian worship among some of those in denominations and also some in non-denominational and other groups.]
   [*]Being a Christian while eschewing any church affiliation. Is the belief that one need not be associated with any church or group. While this is not a denominational belief it is sufficiently widespread to make a kind of theology of its own.
   [*]Emerging church movement; Emerging churches are fluid, hard to define, and varied; they contrast themselves with what has gone before by using the term "inherited church." Key themes of the emerging church are couched in the language of reform, Praxis-oriented lifestyles, Post-evangelical thought, and incorporation or acknowledgement of political and Post-modern elements. ... -- from Wikipedia
   [*]Prosperity gospel: Prosperity theology (sometimes referred to as the prosperity gospel, the health and wealth gospel, or the gospel of success) is a Christian religious doctrine that financial blessing is the will of God for Christians, and that faith, positive speech, and donations to Christian ministries will always increase one's material wealth.
   [*]Congregations electing their ministers.
   [*]Seeker sensitive churches.
   [*]Accountability partners.
   [*]Altar calls.
   [*]Church discipline effectively nullified because of the difficulty of enforcement in a multi-denominational community.
   [*]Temperance movement. ... Alcohol is wicked, "a devil's brew".
   [*]Old covenant Dietary laws applied to new covenant Christians: Christians shall have no shellfish, crustaceans, pork, or any 'unclean meat' because they are forbidden in the Law of Moses.
   [*]The papacy is the antichrist.
   [*]A specific pope will be the antichrist.
   [*]Michael the Archangel and Jesus being the same person.
   [*]Heaven being in the Orion nebula.
   [*]Soul Sleep: Death is an unconscious, sleep-like state. When Jesus Christ comes again, He will resurrect the dead who believe in Him and will take them to heaven. The dead who are unbelievers will be resurrected 1000 years later.
   [*]For a period of a thousand years the earth will be utterly desolate and only Satan and his angels will be on earth. At the end of the thousand years the the Holy City in heaven will descend to earth. The unrighteous dead will be resurrected and with Satan and his angels, they will surround the Holy City to attack God and His people. God will destroy Satan and his followers, hence removing sin forever.
   [*]Trail of blood - also known as Baptist successionism. It is the theory (unsupported by fact) that Jesus Christ is the founder of the Baptist denomination (Which in fact started around 1605 AD in England).
   [*]The Jesuit oath - An absurd fake oath that among other things says "make and wage relentless war, secretly and openly, against all heretics, Protestants and Masons".
   [*]Oneness (denying the Trinity) - some might think this is a non-christian sect's doctrine while others are inclined to believe that Oneness Pentecostalism is within the confines of Christianity.
   [*]Errors about indulgences:
   1. Indulgences forgive sins. This is more of a common error held by some Protestants because they either do not know what an indulgence is or because they believe anti-catholic propaganda. An indulgence does not cause any sins to be forgiven.
   2. The Catholic Church taught that indulgences were to be sold. This too is a common error held by some but not backed up by the facts of history. The Catholic Church does not and never did teach that one could buy an indulgence. But, alas, some unscrupulous people no doubt did sell them.

 

[Stryder06]

There's a difference between the disciples and the Apostles. What it has to do with the Apostles is that, by the act of ordination to the priesthood, the Apostles, in concert with St. Peter, have the Holy Spirit protecting them from teaching error to the Church.

This is incorrect. The apostles are simply disciples that have moved on from learning to teaching. That's the only difference. No where in scripture do we see a promise given to the disciples where they are "protected" from teaching error.

Didn't Paul say that he had to confront Peter for leading others in hypocrisy against gentiles? Isn't that error?

Question: Why would Jesus replace the visible Him with something invisible, without including some visible component?

Because that's what He said He'd do. He said the Holy Spirit would come as another Comforter once He left. The Holy Spirit was His replacement, not Peter. Visible or invisible wouldn't matter because we walk by faith, not by sight.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I thought you folks went more with fiducia, and not so much with fidelis. Thank you for bringing me up to speed.

Technically, Lutherans are the ones that contend that saving faith contains not only notia (knowledge) and assensus (assent), but ficudia (fidelity). The Catholic definition of faith only includes the first two, which is why it is so important to place fidelity under the headings of hope and love (works).

There is further debate between Lutherans and Reformed as to the essential nature of faith. While Lutherans and Reformed both agree that full, mature faith involves fidelity as well as knowledge and assent, the Reformed tend to see assent as the more important part (giving rise to the Calvinist-Arminian debate over the origin of that assent) whereas Lutherans tend to see fidelity, or trust, as basic (something even an infant can have just by being in a state of dependence, or grace).