Protestant errors and inventions (3)

[Rev Randy]

1. Priest shortage
2. Not a doctrinal problem
3. Pope Francis's recent comments


And I didn't suggest a change in that. I see what you're thinking, however.

I agree that the change, if it comes, will mean those who marry before ordination will be accepted. I do not foresee allowing those who have already taken vows of celibacy to back out of it.


Sure, but the clergy of every other Christian church expects about as much and they are managing. I don't doubt that some weighing of pros and cons will take place, but I'm confident that the church will approve the policy change.

I think you're right. I doubt they would ever allow a priest to marry while a priest vow or no vow. Meaning if a priest becomes a widower he'll remain unmarried and if he's ordained unmarried he'll remain unmarried. That was the way they used to do it. It's a come as you are called and remain as you are called thing.
I have a question for you: In the catholic style of the Anglicans can a priest who was ordained unmarried later get married and retain his clergy status?

 

[1Co13]

It's just the scripture teaches that elders are to be a man of one wife and that his children are to be above reproach it is prefaced that if he cannot take care of his own household how much more the household of God?

Well said. Amen.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I worship God in spirit and truth. I concern myself with my temple.

What does that even mean?!

 

[1Co13]

What does that even mean?!

Mt 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

 

[1Co13]

Joh 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

 

[MoreCoffee]

In the church age, after the apostles completed their task of establishing the Church everything is judged against scripture.
...

That's just wrong.

It took around 200 after the death of the last apostle for the canon of scripture to be defined. And even then the principle enunciated in your post was not taught or believed to be true. Scripture does not teach what you've stated.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I suppose you're referring to the Public School System in the US? As far as I know, that's the only system that permits such a thing...

Actually, no system permits it, but many struggle with what to do with those who do such things. The Catholic Church is no exception, but we do have policies in place, and have for quite a while, to do something about it when it arises. What do school systems do? They remove, rehab, and re-place those teachers. No jail time, it's all very quiet...

Not really. At least in my neck of the woods offenders in the public school system get both front page exposure in the newspapers and prime time television news coverage and when their cases go to trial the judges throw the books at them. Maybe it is different where you live.

 

[1Co13]

That's just wrong.

It took around 200 after the death of the last apostle for the canon of scripture to be defined. And even then the principle enunciated in your post was not taught or believed to be true. Scripture does not teach what you've stated.

No it didnt, it took as long as the apostles took to establish a gathering of believers known as the Church.

 

[MoreCoffee]

No it didnt, it took as long as the apostles took to establish a gathering of believers known as the Church.

Thanks for your time.

I see no reason to continue the conversation.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I don't think there's really a priest shortage. There are very few parishes here without a priest. While I realize this isn't true worldwide, many priests come from third-world countries. I agree, it's not a doctrinal problem. It's a discipline that exists for a reason and in this case the reasons are as ancient as the Church. They also happen to be very good reasons, pastorally and prudentially.

Just because the issue may become a topic of discussion within the Vatican does not mean change will happen anytime soon. The Catholic Church is not resistant to change, but is extremely judicious, so changes tend to be gradual and very carefully considered.

If a change happens, it will be the result of careful deliberation, pastoral and prayerful contemplation. This may not occur during the tenure of Pope Francis, in fact, it is unlikely to happen so soon, even from a Pope who seems full of surprises to the uninformed.

Pope Francis may approach the subject differently from his most recent predecessors, but that does not make him radical in any sense. While the media may hype him as overturning tables within the Vatican Pope Francis is doing no such thing.

Instead, he is simply reaffirming ancient and wise theological insights and leading by his personal example.

I doubt that any change will be forthcoming during this pontificate...

Again, I don't know your situation, but here in my little corner of the world I see billboards with Catholic messages to pray for more "religious". I think "religious" means a noun rather than an adjective - meaning that folks should be praying for more people to join the ranks of the clergy and other religious vocations in the Catholic Church.

As for a priest shortage, it is very real and not going away. A nearby city once had five thriving Catholic churches with multiple priests serving in each church. Today all five churches have been closed and there is one, new church with one priest serving in a single parish covering the entire city. Either membership has taken a genuine nosedive or there is a priest shortage. Take you pick. Neither scenario is particularly good IMO.

 

[bbbbbbb]

one Catholic related it to me that a number of women in europe were getting pregnant from the priests .

Goodness gracious! When I was young there was an orphanage in my Catholic city for the offspring of priests and nuns. It was not a large orphanage, mind you, but everyone knew why it was there and it was accepted primarily because it meant that the priests were not engaging in worse sexual proclivities.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Mt 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

So I ask you a question, and you respond with some cryptic remark that doesn't actually answer my question.

So I follow up asking for an explanation, and you give me a passage of scripture that further doesn't answer me question.

You know this is a discussion forum, right?

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

No it didnt, it took as long as the apostles took to establish a gathering of believers known as the Church.

Yes it did. It took time for the particular documents of the New Testament to be accepted by the early Christian churches. There were disputes about Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, and Revelation right up into the fourth century. And even before then, it wasn't clear which documents were known to which Christian groups. Christians in the first half of the second century (like Clement, the author of the Didache, Ignatius, and Polycarp) seem to have had no knowledge of John, and the gospel of Mark was pretty much ignored for the first couple centuries.

We don't get our exact canon of scripture recorded until Athanasius' Easter letter of 367.

Have you ever read a history of Christianity? Really, any history will do.

 

[1Co13]

So I ask you a question, and you respond with some cryptic remark that doesn't actually answer my question.

So I follow up asking for an explanation, and you give me a passage of scripture that further doesn't answer me question.

You know this is a discussion forum, right?

The answer is as valid as the question.

 

[1Co13]

Yes it did. It took time for the particular documents of the New Testament to be accepted by the early Christian churches. There were disputes about Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, and Revelation right up into the fourth century. And even before then, it wasn't clear which documents were known to which Christian groups. Christians in the first half of the second century (like Clement, the author of the Didache, Ignatius, and Polycarp) seem to have had no knowledge of John, and the gospel of Mark was pretty much ignored for the first couple centuries.

We don't get our exact canon of scripture recorded until Athanasius' Easter letter of 367.

Have you ever read a history of Christianity? Really, any history will do.

So you say, and there still are disputes but that proves nothing. I could establish doctrine with only a few letters and a Gospel. You just need to Justify the Pope and RC.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Recent discussion reveals yet another error/invention regarding the bible

1. A bible with only 66 books.
2. The list of books constituting the bible is implied by the books themselves.
3. The King James Version of the bible is the only trustworthy bible in English.
   Rick Flanders: Why We Use the King James Version of the Bible (Lancaster Baptist Church) - YouTube
4. Sola Scriptura - In English "Scripture alone" is the theory (unsupported by sacred scripture) that "all things necessary for God's glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture.
   [*]Prima Scriptura - A doctrine teaching that besides canonical scripture, there are other guides for what a believer should believe, and how he or she should live; the ways of knowing or understanding God and his will, that do not originate from canonized scripture, are in a second place, perhaps helpful in interpreting that scripture, but testable by the canon and correctable by it, if they seem to contradict the scriptures.
   [*]Personal interpretation of scripture as normative (see J I Packer's, FUNDAMENTALISM AND THE WORD OF GOD)
   [*]Arminianism.
   Arminianism is based on the theological ideas of the previously Dutch Reformed theologian Jacobus Arminius (1560–1609) and his historic supporters known as the Remonstrants. ... They asserted that:
   

   1. election (and condemnation on the day of judgment) was conditioned by the rational faith or nonfaith of man;
   2. the Atonement, while qualitatively adequate for all men, is efficacious only for the man of faith;
   3. unaided by the Holy Spirit, no person is able to respond to God’s will;
   4. grace is resistible; and
   5. believers are able to resist sin but are not beyond the possibility of falling from grace.

   ​
   [*]Faith alone - In Latin "sola fide" is the theory (unsupported by scripture fact) that salvation is obtained by faith alone.
   [*]Antinomianism.
   In Christianity, an antinomian is "one who holds that under the gospel dispensation of grace the moral law is of no use or obligation because faith alone is necessary to salvation". ... Antinomianism in modern times is commonly seen as the theological opposite to Legalism or Works righteousness, the notion that obedience to religious law earns salvation. This makes antinomianism an exaggeration of justification by faith alone. -- Wikipedia​
   [*]Total depravity - one of the five points of Calvinism (All human beings are affected by sin in every area of thought and conduct so that nothing that comes out of anyone apart from the regenerating grace of God can please God. As far as our relationships to God are concerned, we are all so ruined by sin that no one can properly understand either God or God's ways. Nor do we seek God, unless He is first at work within us to lead us to do so).
   [*]Unconditional election - second point of Calvinism (If sinners are as helpless in their depravity as the Bible says they are, unable to know and unwilling to seek God, then the only way they could possibly be saved is for God to take the initiative to change and save them. This is what election means. It is God choosing to save those who, apart from His sovereign choice and subsequent action, certainly would perish.).
   [*]Limited atonement - third point of Calvinism (Reformed theology stresses that Jesus actually atoned for the sins of those the Father had chosen. He actually propitiated the wrath of God toward His people by taking their judgment upon Himself, actually redeemed them, and actually reconciled those specific persons to God. A better name for "limited" atonement would be "particular" or "specific" redemption.).
   [*]Irresistible grace - fourth point of Calvinism (When God works in our hearts, regenerating us and creating a renewed will within, then what was undesirable before becomes highly desirable, and we run to Jesus just as previously we ran away from Him. Fallen sinners do resist God's grace, but His regenerating grace is effectual. It overcomes sin and accomplishes God's purpose).
   [*]Perseverance of the saints - the fifth point of Calvinism (You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.)
   [*]Once saved always saved.
   1. Once saved always saved even when one denies the faith some time after being saved.
   2. Rededications even though once saved always saved.
   [*]Double predestination. [In the Reformed view God from all eternity decrees some to election and positively intervenes in their lives to work regeneration and faith by a monergistic work of grace. To the non-elect God withholds this monergistic work of grace, passing them by and leaving them to themselves. He does not monergistically work sin or unbelief in their lives. Even in the case of the "hardening" of the sinners' already recalcitrant hearts, God does not, as Luther stated, "work evil in us (for hardening is working evil) by creating fresh evil in us." -- R. C. Sproul]
   [*]Lapsarianism:The logical order of God's decrees in Calvinist theology is the study of the logical order (in God's mind, before Creation) of the decree to ordain or allow the fall of man and reprobation in relation to his decree to elect and save sinners. Several opposing positions have been proposed, all of which have names with the Latin root lapsus meaning fall.
   1. Supralapsaranism.
   2. Infralapsarianism/Sublapsarianism.
   [*]Penal substitutionary atonement - Penal substitutionary atonement refers to the doctrine that Christ died on the cross as a substitute for sinners. God imputed the guilt of our sins to Christ, and he, in our place, bore the punishment that we deserve. This was a full payment for sins, which satisfied both the wrath and the righteousness of God, so that He could forgive sinners without compromising His own holy standard.
   [*]Ordinances/Anti-sacramentalism.
   [*]Infant dedication (not baptism).
   [*]It isn't baptism unless one is submerged.
   [*]Only people old enough to say the sinner's prayer can be baptised.
   [*]One is born again by saying & believing the sinner's prayer (or a near equivalent).
   [*]Believer's baptism as a public testimony to one's faith but not as the washing away of one's sins nor as the means by which God brings about the birth from above.
   [*]Covenant baptism as a sign and symbol of inclusion into the new covenant community but not as the means by which God gives sanctifying grace.
   [*]The Lord's supper as sign and symbol but not as the body and blood of the Lord.
   [*]Two greater and five lesser Sacraments.
   [*]Dispensing with baptism and the Lord's supper altogether. [A few groups have dropped all sacraments.]
   [*]Errors about The rapture
   1. A pre tribulation rapture.
   2. A mid tribulation rapture.
   [*]Errors about the seven churches in the Apocalypse of saint John. These errors are not formal components in denominational statements of belief although they are commonly held among some groups within Protestantism.
   1. The seven Churches represent seven ages.
   2. The seven Churches prove that denominations existed in the first century AD.
   [*]A future seven year reign of anti-christ with three and a half years of Israelite temple worship.
   [*]Dispensationalism: scripture must be rightly divided by applying a scheme of dispensations to it; usually seven dispensations are taken as normative but other additional dispensations are sometimes included.
   [*]The sermon on the mount as "old testament teaching" that's not applicable under the new covenant.
   [*]Sermon centric worship - being an explanation of the meaning of the text of scripture or a lesson on morals or doctrine for the instruction of the congregation - is the central act of worship in the gathering of the Lord's people on the Lord's day.
   [*]The One True Church is not a visible institution.
   
   1. The One True Church is made up of all true believers scattered throughout all denominations.
   [*]Denominationalism.
   [*]Rejection of the threefold office in the church. Deacon, Presbyter, and Bishop are the offices identified in sacred scripture and present in the church from the beginning. Some protestant bodies reduce this to Deacon and Elder some to Deacon and Pastor and some teach Deacon, Elder, and Pastor with Pastor distinguished only by being the "teaching elder" in a congregation.
   [*]Rejection of clerical laity distinction in the church.
   [*]The pulpit ought to be the focus of a church building's architecture and the table for use on communion ought to be to the side or located in a different part of the church because there is no altar in the church and no sacrifice is made in a church service.
   [*]Equivocating "worship" and "worship service" - meaning that worship in a small group consisting of two or more is the same as the 'worship service' one would normally experience on a Sunday in a church [building]. [Not a formal doctrine but a widely held view of Christian worship among some of those in denominations and also some in non-denominational and other groups.]
   [*]Being a Christian while eschewing any church affiliation. Is the belief that one need not be associated with any church or group. While this is not a denominational belief it is sufficiently widespread to make a kind of theology of its own.
   [*]Emerging church movement; Emerging churches are fluid, hard to define, and varied; they contrast themselves with what has gone before by using the term "inherited church." Key themes of the emerging church are couched in the language of reform, Praxis-oriented lifestyles, Post-evangelical thought, and incorporation or acknowledgement of political and Post-modern elements. ... -- from Wikipedia
   [*]Prosperity gospel: Prosperity theology (sometimes referred to as the prosperity gospel, the health and wealth gospel, or the gospel of success) is a Christian religious doctrine that financial blessing is the will of God for Christians, and that faith, positive speech, and donations to Christian ministries will always increase one's material wealth.
   [*]Congregations electing their ministers.
   [*]Seeker sensitive churches.
   [*]Accountability partners.
   [*]Altar calls.
   [*]Church discipline effectively nullified because of the difficulty of enforcement in a multi-denominational community.
   [*]Temperance movement. ... Alcohol is wicked, "a devil's brew".
   [*]Old covenant Dietary laws applied to new covenant Christians: Christians shall have no shellfish, crustaceans, pork, or any 'unclean meat' because they are forbidden in the Law of Moses.
   [*]The papacy is the antichrist.
   [*]A specific pope will be the antichrist.
   [*]Michael the Archangel and Jesus being the same person.
   [*]Heaven being in the Orion nebula.
   [*]Soul Sleep: Death is an unconscious, sleep-like state. When Jesus Christ comes again, He will resurrect the dead who believe in Him and will take them to heaven. The dead who are unbelievers will be resurrected 1000 years later.
   [*]For a period of a thousand years the earth will be utterly desolate and only Satan and his angels will be on earth. At the end of the thousand years the the Holy City in heaven will descend to earth. The unrighteous dead will be resurrected and with Satan and his angels, they will surround the Holy City to attack God and His people. God will destroy Satan and his followers, hence removing sin forever.
   [*]Trail of blood - also known as Baptist successionism. It is the theory (unsupported by fact) that Jesus Christ is the founder of the Baptist denomination (Which in fact started around 1605 AD in England).
   [*]The Jesuit oath - An absurd fake oath that among other things says "make and wage relentless war, secretly and openly, against all heretics, Protestants and Masons".
   [*]Oneness (denying the Trinity) - some might think this is a non-christian sect's doctrine while others are inclined to believe that Oneness Pentecostalism is within the confines of Christianity.
   [*]Errors about indulgences:
   1. Indulgences forgive sins. This is more of a common error held by some Protestants because they either do not know what an indulgence is or because they believe anti-catholic propaganda. An indulgence does not cause any sins to be forgiven.
   2. The Catholic Church taught that indulgences were to be sold. This too is a common error held by some but not backed up by the facts of history. The Catholic Church does not and never did teach that one could buy an indulgence. But, alas, some unscrupulous people no doubt did sell them.

 

[1Co13]

Wow, my way is simple, have faith in Gods promises, pray and obey the scriptures, the HS is the teacher, all things are mine. It seems good.

 

[Rev Randy]

So you say, and there still are disputes but that proves nothing. I could establish doctrine with only a few letters and a Gospel. You just need to Justify the Pope and RC.

Just wondering??? Why would a Lutheran need to justify the Pope and the RC?
Hey Morecoffee. I think I just found #61.
#61. Lutherans are Roman Catholics.

Curiouser and curiouser it gets.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Just wondering??? Why would a Lutheran need to justify the Pope and the RC?
Hey Morecoffee. I think I just found #61.
#61. Lutherans are Roman Catholics.

Curiouser and curiouser it gets.

heh heh heh

 

[1Co13]

Just wondering??? Why would a Lutheran need to justify the Pope and the RC?
Hey Morecoffee. I think I just found #61.
#61. Lutherans are Roman Catholics.

Curiouser and curiouser it gets.

I'm not sure, maybe he had his own church in mind, it doesn't matter because scripture and the holy spirit teach truth and he needs no denomination. The body being the temple and spirit being teacher isn't an analogy, its the reality and the carnal building structure is the analogy.