Protestant errors and inventions (3)

[tadoflamb]

By the way, brother tadoflamb, do you know where brother Erose is? I sent him a PM but he has not yet opened it. Is he away on a holiday or something?

I don't know, but then again I haven't spent much time on the forums.

 

[rockytopva]

While we are talking doctrine of the Holy Spirit let me throw in some Smith Wigglesworth devotions on being filled with the Spirit...

For sixteen years Smith Wigglesworth preached that he had received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, when in fact he had only received the anointing of the spirit. He explains that it was though he was on the outside of the Garden of Eden looking in. But after he received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, it was as though he had regained access to the Garden of Eden, with the Holy Spirit serving as the fiery sword keeping evil out while he tasted of the good of the Lord. Smith Wigglesworth believed that there were three variations of tongues:

1. The initial tongues giving upon baptism.
2. The tongues spoken in prayer not meant to be interpreted.
3. The tongues given out with a purpose of being interpreted to your native language.

Smith Wigglesworth reminds his audience that since he left their presence, they do not know what he has done. He may have lost anointing or favor with God. He might be like people who have lived holy lives, preached sanctification, and their initial tongues were helpful; but they are now in a backslidden condition… A life not worthy of the language… Something got in the way. They have kept their language, but have lost their zeal and fire. Wherefore Smith Wigglesworth re-emphasizes…

1. Go two days without growing… You have lost your vision!
2. Go a week without growing… You are a backslider!

Smith Wigglesworth encourages people to grow daily into the kingdom. He said that he would rather hear Christians who knew not the power of God, but were growing; than hear people who received the fullness of the power of God, and were now self-satisfied. Smith Wigglesworth also reemphasizes that, like the apostles, he did very little for the kingdom of God before he got the Holy Ghost. Smith Wigglesworth also emphasizes that the Giver is to be received before the gifts. Salvation always precedes sanctification, and sanctification will always precede the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Sanctification prepares the body for the Holy Spirit, and when the body is rightly prepared for the Holy Spirit, and then it is the work of Jesus to baptize with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit then makes Jesus king in your life; you regard him as Lord and Master over all things, and you become submissive to him in all things. You are not afraid to say, “You are mine! I love you!”

The difference between those being led by the Holy Spirit and those who are deceived by Satan is joy, gladness, and a good countenance instead of sadness, sorrow, and depression. Jesus comes with joy into the soul and lifts you higher and higher, it is the spirit who gives light. When satanic power begins to rule; then there is weariness, then people’s faces are like a tragedy, and then their eyes glare as though they have passed through a terrible trial. You are always right to test the spirits (1 John 4:1), if not you will be sure to be caught napping.

 

[tadoflamb]

Can you please answer that question?

No I can't, I'm not a sola scripturist.

Now, using the Sacred Scriptures, Sacred Tradition and the teaching Magisterium of the Church I would be able to. But, you don't need me for that, you can go the Church, which is visible, recognizable and easily approached.

 

[Stryder06]

Id' reply to your last two posts, brother Stryder06, but for the absence of substance that is exhibited in them. Did you have something specific to say, if so, please say it directly rather than by innuendo.

God bless

Self proclaimed authority and saying that Sola Scriptura contradicts the scripture. Your church has no grounds for its authority in the scripture and it contradicts various biblical teachings to uphold its traditions.

Is that direct enough for you

 

[Isatis]

Now, using the Sacred Scriptures, Sacred Tradition and the teaching Magisterium of the Church I would be able to.

Ok, go ahead and tell us please.

 

[Root of Jesse]

57 protestant errors! That's not too bad compared with Luther's 95 thesis.


Martin Luther's 95 Theses

Ya know, of the 95 Theses, I count only about 5 different real issues that Luther had with Catholicism. Repentence, the authority of the Church hierarchy, and the sale of indulgences, primarily. What's funny, though, is that it wasn't Church teaching that indulgences could be sold, or that buying indulgences put you in heaven.

 

[Root of Jesse]

It's funny to hear a catholic talk about self proclaimed authority. Maybe I understand Sola Scriptura differently than it was intended, but I was of the mindset that the teaching emphasized determining doctrine from the word of God over all else. In other words, if your doctrine goes against scripture than your doctrine is in error.

What's really funny is hearing protestant talk about who Jesus conferred authority upon. We determine Scripture from the Word of God, and what the apostles taught that God's Word meant by what he said.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Self proclaimed authority and saying that Sola Scriptura contradicts the scripture. Your church has no grounds for its authority in the scripture and it contradicts various biblical teachings to uphold its traditions.

Is that direct enough for you

But the sacred scriptures themselves testify to the authority given to Christ and by Christ to the apostles and through the apostles to the whole Church through the ages until our own day. Authority is always referred to Christ our God. He is the head of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church and it is he who sends the Spirit to guide and enlighten that church until the end of the ages. See Matthew 28:18-19; John 20:19-23; Acts 1:8; Acts 2:38-41. So it is not self proclaimed authority that matters nor is self proclaimed wisdom of any account but rather the wisdom of God given to his Church in the person of Jesus Christ through whom Authority is given over things on earth and in heaven.

Perhaps you object to the Catholic Church for whatever reasons you have received from your religious training and personal reflections on it. That would be no surprise if you have read "The Great Controversy" by Ellen White - for it is truly one of the most reprehensible anti-catholics works produced in the 19th century - but the truth of scripture is what you said you wish to stand for and it is the truth of sacred scripture that Jesus built and is building his church and that he gave authority to his church to forgive sins and to retain them as well as to bind and to unbind things on Earth in the sure knowledge that they are bound and unbound in heaven too. Thus the Catholic Church teaches and so I believe. You may differ, that is always your free choice to make in this life.

God grant clarity, mercy, and peace to us all in the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[tadoflamb]

It's funny to hear a catholic talk about self proclaimed authority. Maybe I understand Sola Scriptura differently than it was intended, but I was of the mindset that the teaching emphasized determining doctrine from the word of God over all else. In other words, if your doctrine goes against scripture than your doctrine is in error.

The problem is, in the absence of an authentic interpreter, what you really have is the private judgment of men (or women). The least the protestant could do is to allow the Catholic Church the same religious liberty it has afforded itself, and that is the authority to teach and interpret the Sacred Scriptures.

 

[tadoflamb]

What's really funny is hearing protestant talk about who Jesus conferred authority upon. We determine Scripture from the Word of God, and what the apostles taught that God's Word meant by what he said.

That's another issue I wanted to bring up. No Catholic doctrine contradicts the Sacred Scriptures. They may contradict the protestant's personal interpretation of the Sacred Scriptures, but they don't contradict the Sacred Scriptures.

 

[Stryder06]

What's really funny is hearing protestant talk about who Jesus conferred authority upon. We determine Scripture from the Word of God, and what the apostles taught that God's Word meant by what he said.

You determine scripture from the word of God? Did you mean doctrine? In either case you can't prove that what you believe is what the apostles taught. You have to take your churches word for it.

 

[shturt678]

Ya know, of the 95 Theses, I count only about 5 different real issues that Luther had with Catholicism. Repentence, the authority of the Church hierarchy, and the sale of indulgences, primarily. What's funny, though, is that it wasn't Church teaching that indulgences could be sold, or that buying indulgences put you in heaven.

I think that Mr. Luther was about putting forth solis fide, RCC of course is fides cartiate formata. We few non-modern Lutherans don't want to put forth RCC's canon 6 sessio 11, ie, anathama against anyone putting forth solis fide.

Just ol old Jack

 

[Stryder06]

The problem is, in the absence of an authentic interpreter, what you really have is the private judgment of men (or women). The least the protestant could do is to allow the Catholic Church the same religious liberty it has afforded itself, and that is the authority to teach and interpret the Sacred Scriptures.

As MC already pointed out, scripture is not of private interpretation. There is one message, one truth, that is applicabel to all. The problem is that your church has dubbed itself the sole interpreter of the bible and no such authority has been given it to do such a thing outside of itself.

 

[MoreCoffee]

As MC already pointed out, scripture is not of private interpretation. There is one message, one truth, that is applicable to all. The problem is that your church has dubbed itself the sole interpreter of the bible and no such authority has been given it to do such a thing outside of itself.

On the contrary; it is not the church that granted authority to interpret sacred scripture to herself but Christ who gave that authority to her when he gave the Holy Spirit to her to be her life and her light and her breath. The Church lives because she is the body of Christ enlivened by his Spirit and guided into all truth by the same Spirit as the scriptures teach,

"And I will ask the Father, and he will give another Advocate to you, so that he may abide with you for eternity: the Spirit of Truth, whom the world is not able to accept, because it neither perceives him nor knows him. But you shall know him. For he will remain with you, and he will be in you. I will not leave you orphans. I will return to you. Yet a little while and the world will not see me any longer. But you will see me. For I live, and you shall live. In that day, you shall know that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever holds to my commandments and keeps them: it is he who loves me. And whoever loves me shall be loved by my Father. And I will love him, and I will manifest myself to him."

Judas, not the Iscariot, said to him: "Lord, how does it happen that you will manifest yourself to us and not to the world?"

Jesus responded and said to him: "If anyone loves me, he shall keep my word. And my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and we will make our dwelling place with him. Whoever does not love me, does not keep not my words. And the word that you have heard is not of me, but it is of the Father who sent me. These things I have spoken to you, while abiding with you. But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will suggest to you everything whatsoever that I have said to you." (John 14:16-26)​

 

[Stryder06]

But the sacred scriptures themselves testify to the authority given to Christ and by Christ to the apostles and through the apostles to the whole Church through the ages until our own day. Authority is always referred to Christ our God. He is the head of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church and it is he who sends the Spirit to guide and enlighten that church until the end of the ages. See Matthew 28:18-19; John 20:19-23; Acts 1:8; Acts 2:38-41. So it is not self proclaimed authority that matters nor is self proclaimed wisdom of any account but rather the wisdom of God given to his Church in the person of Jesus Christ through whom Authority is given over things on earth and in heaven.

You know what I don't see in the scripture I don't see "He is the head of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church". And I've never questioned the Authority of Christ. What I said was that your church has assumed authority that it was not given, and not a single text when understood properly supports what you're saying.

Perhaps you object to the Catholic Church for whatever reasons you have received from your religious training and personal reflections on it. That would be no surprise if you have read "The Great Controversy" by Ellen White - for it is truly one of the most reprehensible anti-catholics works produced in the 19th century - but the truth of scripture is what you said you wish to stand for and it is the truth of sacred scripture that Jesus built and is building his church and that he gave authority to his church to forgive sins and to retain them as well as to bind and to unbind things on Earth in the sure knowledge that they are bound and unbound in heaven too. Thus the Catholic Church teaches and so I believe. You may differ, that is always your free choice to make in this life.

I absolutely love the free publicity you give to Sr White

Thing is that I don't need to turn to The Great Controversy or any other book by her to vent my issues with your church. All she does is bring to light that which has already been proclaimed in the scripture, she just does it in the modern vernacular. I've asked you this before, and I'll ask you this again, how does your church get around the following text:

Isa 8:20 To the law and the testimony, if they speak not according to this word it is because there is no light in them?

Every time I present this to you, you simply brush it off. If your church has the authority you think it does, than you should have no problem explaining this text. Not a single doctrine or teaching that you have should go against the law or the testimony. If the Spirit is guiding your church as you proclaim it is, you should be in harmony with the law and the testimony. Are you?

 

[Stryder06]

On the contrary; it is not the church that granted authority to interpret sacred scripture to herself but Christ who gave that authority to her when he gave the Holy Spirit to her to be her life and her light and her breath. The Church lives because she is the body of Christ enlivened by his Spirit and guided into all truth by the same Spirit as the scriptures teach,

"And I will ask the Father, and he will give another Advocate to you, so that he may abide with you for eternity: the Spirit of Truth, whom the world is not able to accept, because it neither perceives him nor knows him. But you shall know him. For he will remain with you, and he will be in you. I will not leave you orphans. I will return to you. Yet a little while and the world will not see me any longer. But you will see me. For I live, and you shall live. In that day, you shall know that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever holds to my commandments and keeps them: it is he who loves me. And whoever loves me shall be loved by my Father. And I will love him, and I will manifest myself to him."

Judas, not the Iscariot, said to him: "Lord, how does it happen that you will manifest yourself to us and not to the world?"

Jesus responded and said to him: "If anyone loves me, he shall keep my word. And my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and we will make our dwelling place with him. Whoever does not love me, does not keep not my words. And the word that you have heard is not of me, but it is of the Father who sent me. These things I have spoken to you, while abiding with you." (John 14:16-25)
​

Sorry, still looking for the text where Christ invested that authroity in the Catholic church. Your problem is that you don't seem to realize that the church is not some centralized locale of congregants. Its the body of Christ scattered about. Christ made disciples, and those disciples were commissioned to make other disciples. The body of believers, in short, is a body of disciples, with various talents, lead by Christ. Notice how you said that Christ is the head of the church. Compare that with your church having it's own visible head who you call "Holy Father".

 

[Isatis]

Ya know, of the 95 Theses, I count only about 5 different real issues that Luther had with Catholicism.

Well, OP established a list of 9 protestant errors and inventions FIVE YEARS AGO here http://www.christianforums.com/t7291830/#post48812223.

And now, that list consists of 57 errors and inventions. I wonder why.

 

[Tzaousios]

I wonder why.

Which list are you talking about? Both have grown since they were resurrected.

 

[MoreCoffee]

...

Thing is that I don't need to turn to The Great Controversy or any other book by her to vent my issues with your church. All she does is bring to light that which has already been proclaimed in the scripture, she just does it in the modern vernacular. I've asked you this before, and I'll ask you this again, how does your church get around the following text:

Isa 8:20 To the law and the testimony, if they speak not according to this word it is because there is no light in them?

Every time I present this to you, you simply brush it off. If your church has the authority you think it does, than you should have no problem explaining this text. Not a single doctrine or teaching that you have should go against the law or the testimony. If the Spirit is guiding your church as you proclaim it is, you should be in harmony with the law and the testimony. Are you?

The meaning of that text is easily grasped when it is read in its context in history and in God's plan of salvation.

And should people say to you, 'Go and consult ghosts and wizards that whisper and mutter' -- a people should certainly consult its gods and the dead on behalf of the living! As regards instruction and testimony, without doubt this is how they will talk, and hence there will be no dawn for them. (Isaiah 8:19-20)
​

Clearly the words are a condemnation of the necromancy practised by the those who go to wizards that whisper and mutter.

 

[Stryder06]

The meaning of that text is easily grasped when it is read in its context in history and in God's plan of salvation.

And should people say to you, 'Go and consult ghosts and wizards that whisper and mutter' -- a people should certainly consult its gods and the dead on behalf of the living! As regards instruction and testimony, without doubt this is how they will talk, and hence there will be no dawn for them. (Isaiah 8:19-20)
​

Clearly the words are a condemnation of the necromancy practised by the those who go to wizards that whisper and mutter.

I've found it interesting how you've continued to use more modern translations instead of the KJV, but that's a conversation for another thread.

This isn't a condemnation against necromancy as much as it is a condemnation against those who try to communicate with the dead altogether. So you're not out of the woods yet sir.

And are you really willing to say that verse 20 has no application outside of dealing with those who speak to the dead? Do you really think you wouldn't be able to tell those who have light in them by testing what they say against the law and the testimony?

I ask that you consider the following text as well:
Isa 8:16 - Bind up the testimony. Seal the law among my disciples.

Would you say that the testimony is bound up among your church, or that the law has been sealed among you?