Proposed Changes the SDA doctrine in order to make more accurate and based on the Bible And not EGW

[Adventist Dissident]

Below is a list of the proposed Changes in doctrine of the SDA Church by The SEA movement.

1. Christ ruling in Jerusalem for 1000 years. Isa 66:23, Rev 15:4, Ps 86:9, Rev 20:4,6
2. The sabbath as a sign and prediction of the 1000 years regin. Isa 66:23, Heb 4:9-11
3. Sunday, as mark of the beast, for trying to set up the kingdom of God on earth and not waiting for Jesus to come and rule from Jerusalem for 1000 years.
4. 666 pointing to Solomon , A type of Christ and Anti-Christ, making a compermise with the world. 1 Kings 10:4, 2 Chron 9:13.
5. The pre-fall nature of Christ. To be fair most of Mainline SDA Church believes this. it is only those that support EGW that believe Jesus had a post fall nature.
6. Soul Sleep - there is a Body, Soul & Spirit and upon death, the Spirit return to God, the Body return to the dust and the Soul goes to Sheol, the Chamber of Darkness and is a sleep. This is in the O.T. After Christ come a Modification take places. if a person accepts Christ, then the Soul & Spirit will go to heaven for the believer, and the body to the grave. the soul and spirit are reunited with the body at the Advent, when the saints are taken to the marriage supper of the lamb (1Thess. 4:13,14). For the Unbeliever it is the same as the OT.
7. The Advent happens before the tribulation, where the faithful saints are taken out of this world to the Marriage supper of the Lamb and return at the beginning of the 1000 years.

8. The unfaithful saints must go through the tribulation and are part of the 144000 & The Great multitude that no man can number. Rev 7:4, Rev 14:1,3, Ezra 2:13, Rev 13:18, 1Kings 10:14, 2Chron 9:13
9. changes to the view of the Sabbath to Sunday.
1. Sabbath was kept changed for over 300 years until the time of Constintine, then due to politics , the Holiness of the Day was transferred to the first day of the Week or the Lords's day. it was now a sign of loyality to the State. Sabbath was eventually banned due to defection during a time of persecution. It became "anathama" to observe sabbath.
2. The Lord's Day - was established by the Apostles. it was based on the Resurrection, the post ressurecction of Jesus and Jesus Fulfilling the Festivals: Palm Sunday(Lamb selection Sunday) Resurrection Sunday(First Fruits) & Holy Spirit Sunday (Pentacost). All on the first day of the week. It was an ADDITION to the Sabbath observance not a Replacement. It was Observed as a Festival, NOT a Sabbath, NOT a day of no work, until the time of Constantine. Due to politics, Sylverter I the bishop of Rome transfered the Holiness of Sabbath to the Lord's day. Eventually due to politics the Lord's day usurped the Sabbath and then replaced it.

 

[tall73]

Below is a list of the proposed Changes in doctrine of the SDA Church by The SEA movement.

2. The sabbath as a sign and prediction of the 1000 years regin

Does this also mean that you hold to a roughly 6k year old earth with a 1k year millennium? Or just that it will be kept in the millennium?

 

[tall73]

6. Soul Sleep - there is a Body, Soul & Spirit and upon death, the Spirit return to God, the Body return to the dust and the Soul goes to Sheol, the Chamber of Darkness and is a sleep. This is in the O.T. After Christ come a Modification take places. if a person accepts Christ, then the Soul will go to heaven for the believer and the unbeliever goes to the Chambers of Darkness asleep.

This is specifically after the death, and resurrection of Christ? In other words, Lazarus, Jairus' daughter, etc. were prior to the cross, so you would not see them going to heaven upon death until they were raised?

What do you do with the "sleep" language in this text, in a time clearly after the cross?

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

 

[tall73]

Due to Politics Sylverter I the bishop of Rome transfered the Holiness of Sabbath to the Lord's day. Eventually due to politics the Lord's day usurped the Sabbath and then replaced it.

The way this is phrased could be confusing to people, but I gather you do not actually agree that the holiness or solemnity was transferred, but are saying this was the historical claim?

 

[Adventist Dissident]

The way this is phrased could be confusing to people, but I gather you do not actually agree that the holiness or solemnity was transferred, but are saying this was the historical claim?

what do you suggest?

 

[Adventist Dissident]

This is specifically after the death, and resurrection of Christ? In other words, Lazarus, Jairus' daughter, etc. were prior to the cross, so you would not see them going to heaven upon death until they were raised?

What do you do with the "sleep" language in this text, in a time clearly after the cross?

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Does this also mean that you hold to a roughly 6k year old earth with a 1k year millennium? Or just that it will be kept in the millennium?

yes

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

This is specifically after the death, and resurrection of Christ? In other words, Lazarus, Jairus' daughter, etc. were prior to the cross, so you would not see them going to heaven upon death until they were raised?

What do you do with the "sleep" language in this text, in a time clearly after the cross?

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

I reworded it and added some additional things to it

 

[The Liturgist]

1. Sabbath was kept changed for over 300 years until the time of Constintine, then due to politics , the Holiness of the Day was transferred to the first day of the Week or the Lords's day. it was now a sign of loyality to the State. Sabbath was eventually banned due to defection during a time of persecution. It became "anathama" to observe sabbath.

That’s still completely historically inaccurate, however. We know from the writings of the second century St. Justin Martyr that as early as second century Rome the main worship was on the First Day.

Furthermore most Christians believe that evidence of Sunday being the principle day of worship is in the Book of Acts.

Also there were no actions taken by St. Constantine to anathematizs worship on the Sabbath, for to do so would have actively interfered with his newly found religion, since Holy Saturday has historically been one of the most important liturgical days, as well as Lazarus Saturday (the day before Palm Sunday) and the Soul Sundays, such as those in Lent. Indeed Canon XX of Nicaea, adopted at the Council of Nicaea presided over by St. Constantine, prohibits fasting and prostrations during worship on both Saturday and Sunday, and also throughout the entire Pentecost from Pascha (Easter) to Whitsunday.

Also, it was not until the reign of St. Theodosius that Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire, with severe restrictions imposed on Judaism, and the Pagan temples from Rome to Egypt began to be closed over the next few decades, with the last being shut down no later than 500 AD. The suppression of Paganism was a great accomplishment as the river of blood from animal sacrifices was ended.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

That’s still completely historically inaccurate, however. We know from the writings of the second century St. Justin Martyr that as early as second century Rome the main worship was on the First Day.

No quarrel here. It was both

Furthermore most Christians believe that evidence of Sunday being the principle day of worship is in the Book of Acts.

Not until Paul left the synagogue. But he did both

Also there were no actions taken by St. Constantine to anathematizs worship on the Sabbath,

That was done at the council of Orleans. After the regin of Julian the apostate

for to do so would have actively interfered with his newly found religion, since Holy Saturday has historically been one of the most important liturgical days, as well as Lazarus Saturday (the day before Palm Sunday) and the Soul Sundays, such as those in Lent. Indeed Canon XX of Nicaea, adopted at the Council of Nicaea presided over by St. Constantine, prohibits fasting and prostrations during worship on both Saturday and Sunday, and also throughout the entire Pentecost from Pascha (Easter) to Whitsunday.

Also, it was not until the reign of St. Theodosius that Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire, with severe restrictions imposed on Judaism, and the Pagan temples from Rome to Egypt began to be closed over the next few decades, with the last being shut down no later than 500 AD. The suppression of Paganism was a great accomplishment as the river of blood from animal sacrifices was ended.

This is after the Sabbath was banned

I'm sorry you're completely wrong on this matter. You've bought into the either/or scenario. It was either Sabbath or it was Sunday. No it was both. There are very practical reasons for why it was both. There are very good reasons why it was both. It was both. Trying reading Pagan & Christians by Robin Lane Fox.

 

[The Liturgist]

I'm sorry you're completely wrong on this matter. You've bought into the either/or scenario. It was either Sabbath or it was Sunday. No it was both. There are very practical reasons for why it was both. There are very good reasons why it was both. It was both. Trying reading Pagan & Christians by Robin Lane Fox.

That’s not true, I do not subscribe to the either/or scenario. The reality is that the early church, and to this day the Orthodox Church, has always stressed worship on Saturday, for the commemoration of the reposed and in particular the repose of Christ in the Tomb, and the raising of Lazarus, and also the Blessed Virgin Mary. Indeed in the Syriac Orthodox Church, the only days on which it is permitted to celebrate the Eucharist are Sunday, Wednesday, Friday, Saturday, and feast days (the early church always fasted on Wednesday and Friday, a practice continued by the Orthodox, which John Wesley sought to revive).

 

[Adventist Dissident]

That’s not true, I do not subscribe to the either/or scenario. The reality is that the early church, and to this day the Orthodox Church, has always stressed worship on Saturday, for the commemoration of the reposed and in particular the repose of Christ in the Tomb, and the raising of Lazarus, and also the Blessed Virgin Mary. Indeed in the Syriac Orthodox Church, the only days on which it is permitted to celebrate the Eucharist are Sunday, Wednesday, Friday, Saturday, and feast days (the early church always fasted on Wednesday and Friday, a practice continued by the Orthodox, which John Wesley sought to revive).

Ephesus Theory

The Ephesus Theory. An overview of the Sabbath-Sunday issues, concerning the origins of the Lord’s Day and its relationship to the Sabbath. The early Church, from the beginning, was worshiping on the Sabbath. They did so because they saw themselves not as a new religion, but as the fulfillment...

docs.google.com

 

[The Liturgist]

I will give you an outline of My views on the Sabbath Sunday issue. It is Called the Ephesus Theory.

The early Church from the beginning Worshiped on the Sabbath. They did so because they saw themselves not as a new religion, but the fulfillment of Judahism. This practice went on for about 15 years until it was necessary to establish a separate identity from Judahism. This was due to the Riots in Rome. in the 40's AD. Emperor Claudius expelled the Jews from Rome over a riot by someone named "Chrestus" among those expelled where Prycilla & Aquilla. They Traveled to Cornith where they were expelled from the Synagogue. In keeping with the Words of Jesus "they would be rejected by the Jews and kicked out of the synagogue" for preaching about Him. When Paul showed up in the synagogue to preach Christ, he was informed about these other who had preached the same thing, Prycilla & Aquilla, When he inquired about them he was told they were meeting down by the riverside. Paul went and found them and they began to discuss the problem in Rome.

Prycallia & Aquilla would travel with Paul to Ephesus, In Ephesus Paul entered a new phase of evangelism, He turned to the Gentiles and established the first separate Christian Service apart from Synagogue Worship, using the hall of Tyrannaus. Consulting with Prycilla & Aquilla about the events in Rome. Paul established a separate service on the 1st Day of the week, have a distinct Christian worship service, to keep the peace, establish a unique identity so outsiders could tell the difference. Prycilla & Aquilla would take this model back to Rome and implement the Lord's day there. Apollos, whom Prycilla & Aquilla instructed in Ephesus, would eventually join them in Rome and carry this new model back to Alexandria and implement it there. At no time did the apostles envision the Lord's as a replacement Sabbath or a day of no work. It was a festival in addition to their synagogue worship, in which they would attend to Hear the Word of God read. The Christian Scripture had not been written yet so in order to hear the Word of God they had to attend the synagogue. As recorded in Acts 15, Col 2 & Galatians.
.
The theological basis for the Lord's Day was Pentecost, First Fruits & Lamb selection all happened on the 1st day of the week. In addition to this, there are the post resurrection appearance of Christ on the first day of the week. These were the Historical basis and the Biblical basis for the Lord's day.

P.S. It is possible that a meeting, of some kind, was being practiced before Ephesus, but it is not clear. My theory is based on the dating of the book of 1 Corinthians being written after 50 AD. If it before then it is evidence that some type of service was going on prior to the establishment of the church in Ephesus.

Well that seems reasonable enough.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Well that seems reasonable enough.

Well I got a convert, you're my first

 

[The Liturgist]

Well I got a convert, you're my first

Alas I am a devout Orthodox with a great love of the Methodist and Anglican and high church Congregationalist and Lutheran churches and certain parts of the Roman Catholic Church, such as the Traditional Latin Mass communities, the Carthusian monasteries, and the Eastern Catholics, particularly the Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.

That said your proposal I support because it would lead to the SDA Church being able to engage in better ecumenical relations with the other churches, such as coordinated action on social issues like abortion and homosexuality.

One issue I feel you need to address is Christology, to make sure that your SEA movement would leave the Adventist Church free of Nestorianism, by embracing the doctrines of the Councils of Chalcedon or Ephesus.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Alas I am a devout Orthodox with a great love of the Methodist and Anglican and high church Congregationalist and Lutheran churches and certain parts of the Roman Catholic Church, such as the Traditional Latin Mass communities, the Carthusian monasteries, and the Eastern Catholics, particularly the Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.

That said your proposal I support because it would lead to the SDA Church being able to engage in better ecumenical relations with the other churches, such as coordinated action on social issues like abortion and homosexuality.

One issue I feel you need to address is Christology, to make sure that your SEA movement would leave the Adventist Church free of Nestorianism, by embracing the doctrines of the Councils of Chalcedon or Ephesus.

Christiology is one of the things i wrote down. it is a problem.

the SDA view is very antigonastic and unecessarialy so. In this view the Lord's day is a positive that surpassed the orignal intent due to out side influences & politics.

 

[tall73]

From a big picture view, why do you think reform is needed in the Adventist church?

And how would people start to act on this locally?

 

[Adventist Dissident]

From a big picture view, why do you think reform is needed in the Adventist church?

I think there are a number of reasons for the SEA Movement.
1. need for adjustment - theological adjustment - there are error that need to be fixed.
2. need for moral reform. - the church is corrupt and failing as a moral agent., this is demonstrated by the high divorce rate, the LGBTQ+, Drug use in the schools and corruption on a local level.
3. need for Accountability. =
4. need to be Bible Based- The SDA church can no longer hide that it is using a second source of authority, EGW, that is unreliable and creates confusion and conflict with Gods word, This must be droped for she lock in to place any error the pioneers has made.
5. need to be Christ centered - instead of being Last days centered or EGW centered we need to be Christ centered.
6. the need to be Grace centered.- Chruch need to rid itself of it salvation + works emphesis. not salvation + obediance.

And how would people start to act on this locally?

1. For Pastors & Elders they start preaching exigetically. meaning preaching book by book, chapter by chapter, verse by verse, rather then topical preaching where you pick a topic and talk on that subject. Pastor should pick a book and go through it chapter by chapter, next weeks sermon is the next chapter or the next story in the book if you preach story by story through a book. For example you might preach through Genesis and when you come to Abraham preach chapter by chapter or break up the story in to relevent section and preach the sections. the story might cover 20 chapter and you preach on 3 chapter in 1 story and 4 chapters in the next story and 2 in the next section of the story.
This would be your main way of preaching, topical preaching would be reserved for occasional preaching when the situation merited it or a subject needs to be address.

2. The second way is to have bible studies using the bible and the bible only. If you have a large enough group then an O.T. & N.T study would be good. If you only have a small group then a class where you pick a book and go chapter by chapter verse by verse. sit in a circle or square and go around and read the text, 1 or 2 at a time until the chapter is read. As you read pay attention to the text that speak to you. That is the Holy Spirit talking to you.

 

[The Liturgist]

I think there are a number of reasons for the SEA Movement.
1. need for adjustment - theological adjustment - there are error that need to be fixed.
2. need for moral reform. - the church is corrupt and failing as a moral agent., this is demonstrated by the high divorce rate, the LGBTQ+, Drug use in the schools and corruption on a local level.
3. need for Accountability. =
4. need to be Bible Based- The SDA church can no longer hide that it is using a second source of authority, EGW, that is unreliable and creates confusion and conflict with Gods word, This must be droped for she lock in to place any error the pioneers has made.
5. need to be Christ centered - instead of being Last days centered or EGW centered we need to be Christ centered.
6. the need to be Grace centered.- Chruch need to rid itself of it salvation + works emphesis. not salvation + obediance.

1. For Pastors & Elders they start preaching exigetically. meaning preaching book by book, chapter by chapter, verse by verse, rather then topical preaching where you pick a topic and talk on that subject. Pastor should pick a book and go through it chapter by chapter, next weeks sermon is the next chapter or the next story in the book if you preach story by story through a book. For example you might preach through Genesis and when you come to Abraham preach chapter by chapter or break up the story in to relevent section and preach the sections. the story might cover 20 chapter and you preach on 3 chapter in 1 story and 4 chapters in the next story and 2 in the next section of the story.
This would be your main way of preaching, topical preaching would be reserved for occasional preaching when the situation merited it or a subject needs to be address.

2. The second way is to have bible studies using the bible and the bible only. If you have a large enough group then an O.T. & N.T study would be good. If you only have a small group then a class where you pick a book and go chapter by chapter verse by verse. sit in a circle or square and go around and read the text, 1 or 2 at a time until the chapter is read. As you read pay attention to the text that speak to you. That is the Holy Spirit talking to you.

Well I am increasingly encouraged by what you are doing.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Well I am increasingly encouraged by what you are doing.

I was thinking about trying to develop a certificate for SEA theology.


In addition to that I was thinking about is it possible to reconcile covenantalism and dispensationalism

 

[The Liturgist]

I was thinking about trying to develop a certificate for SEA theology.


In addition to that I was thinking about is it possible to reconcile covenantalism and dispensationalism

If you look at Patristic and Eastern theology, which heavily influenced Martin Luther, John Calvin, Thomas Cranmer and especially John Wesley, you will find a scenario where they are kept in harmony with each other.