Propitiation

[Hammster]

We're the wildcard, not Him. His grace is sufficient for all.

It sure isn’t in your theology. It’s necessary, but not sufficient.

 

[fhansen]

It sure isn’t in your theology. It’s necessary, but not sufficient.

No, it's sufficient-we're the wildcard, not Him. God's handiwork in creation, alone, should be sufficient according to Paul in Rom 1.

 

[Hammster]

No, it's sufficient-we're the wildcard, not Him.

Right. It’s necessary. God needs you to save you.

 

[fhansen]

Right. It’s necessary. God needs you to save you.

No, God wants me to participate in my salvation. He wants me to want Him.

But God made you without any cooperation on your part. For you did not lend your consent so that god could make you. How could you have consented, when you did not exist? But He who made you without your consent does not justify you without your consent. He made you without your knowledge, but He does not justify you without you willing it.” Augustine

That's wisdom, God drawing us into increasing "ownership" of our justice, corresponding to increasing nearness to Him.

 

[Hammster]

No, God wants me to participate in my salvation. He wants me to want Him.

It’s not your want that saves you. His grace is sufficient to regenerate you. Everything after that is a response to the new birth. That’s what’s meant by sufficient.

Your theology has grace as a necessity. But it isn’t sufficient to regenerate. God needs you to do something first.

 

[zoidar]

I am glad that we agree that God can forgive past, present, as well as future sins. The question now is, why is God unwilling to forgive some sins of Christians?

Because they don't repent?

 

[zoidar]

Forgiveness happened at the cross, as I keep pointing out.

When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
— Colossians 2:13-14

Sorry for barging in, but isn't Col 2:13-14 saying we were forgiven when we were dead in transgressions as we were made alive? From my understanding we are made alive when we receive Christ by faith. We were hardly made alive the moment Christ was crucified, while we were still dead in sin.

 

[Hammster]

Sorry for barging in, but isn't Col 2:13-14 saying we were forgiven when we were dead in transgressions and made alive? From my understanding we are made alive when we receive Christ by faith.

He made us alive having forgiven by our debt being cancelled at the cross.

 

[zoidar]

He made us alive having forgiven by our debt being cancelled at the cross.

I think he is describing the means of forgiveness, it's through the cross we are forgiven. As we are forgiven we are made alive, and that is through the cross.

 

[Hammster]

I think he is describing the means of forgiveness, it's through the cross we are forgiven. As we are forgiven we are made alive, and that is through the cross.

Except that’s not what it says.

Here’s a way to rewrite what it says.

Having forgiven us all our transgressions, when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him,
— Colossians 2:13

 

[bbbbbbb]

We're the wildcard, not Him. His grace is sufficient for all.

Different amounts of talents were given to different servants with differing amounts of return expected-but some amount of effort at investing with some return was always expected. Failing to invest was not an option, with that wicked and lazy servant booted from the kingdom.

Apparently His grace is easily trumped by His creatures. Is grace some sort of ephemeral substance which has no true reality behind it?

 

[fhansen]

Apparently His grace is easily trumped by His creatures. Is grace some sort of ephemeral substance which has no true reality behind it?

Grace is God's operation/work/life/Spirit/love in us. It accomplishes whatever He wants it to.

 

[zoidar]

Except that’s not what it says.

Here’s a way to rewrite what it says.

Having forgiven us all our transgressions, when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him,
— Colossians 2:13

HCSB

13 And when you were dead in trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive with Him and forgave us all our trespasses.

This is quite obvious to me, this part happens when we repent and have faith. Since we are dead in sins (uncircumcised) until we are made alive (circumcised by the Holy Spirit).

14 He erased the certificate of debt, with its obligations, that was against us and opposed to us, and has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the cross.

This second part might refer to what happened at the time of the crucifixion. Or it might be a reference to what happens when we come to faith, our sins, our guilt, our trespasses, our certificate of dept is nailed to the cross in an actual fashion.

 

[Hammster]

HCSB

13 And when you were dead in trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive with Him and forgave us all our trespasses.

This is quite obvious to me, this part happens when we repent and have faith. Since we are dead in sins (uncircumcised) until we are made alive (circumcised by the Holy Spirit).

14 He erased the certificate of debt, with its obligations, that was against us and opposed to us, and has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the cross.

This second part might refer to what happened at the time of the crucifixion. Or it might be a reference to what happens when we come to faith, our sins, our guilt, our trespasses, our certificate of dept is nailed to the cross in an actual fashion.

When did the erasing happen? At the cross, or when you were made alive?

Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God,
— Hebrews 10:11-12

If your understanding is correct, Christ the High priest offers time after time the same sacrifice.

 

[fhansen]

That’s irrelevant whether or not we know. God knows who are His. That is what is relevant.

Then what's the point? It's sort of redundant to say that the elect are the elect-and will go to heaven. No one disagrees there. Because if He alone knows with certainty who they are then we must do what most Christians generally do regardless, not presume that we're saved and strive and make effort to please God whatever that means. The rest is speculation-putting the cart ahead of the horse.

 

[Hammster]

Then what's the point? It's sort of redundant to say that the elect are the elect-and will go to heaven. No one disagrees there. Because if He alone knows with certainty who they are then we must do what most Christians generally do regardless, not presume that we're saved and strive and make effort to please God whatever that means. The rest is speculation-putting the cart ahead of the horse.

Why would someone who is saved by the loving grace of God not try to please Him?

 

[fhansen]

Why would someone who is saved by the loving grace of God not try to please Him?

Are you saying Christians don't sin-that everything they do is just somehow automatically pleasing to God-always consistent with love?? Are you saying there was no need for warning believers to refrain from returning to the flesh? Or to make effort to be holy because otherwise they won't see God? Or to overcome sin by the Spirit in order to gain eternal life?

Incidentally, the reason that a believer can finally please God isn't because of gratefulness per se but because of the change that's occurred in them as a result of being reborn, becoming His children. IOW, righteousness isn't merely imputed to or declared of them at justification but given to them. Otherwise they'd still just be sinners, forgiven but with no power over the old man and so with no reason or motivation to change behavior.

 

[fhansen]

It’s not your want that saves you. His grace is sufficient to regenerate you. Everything after that is a response to the new birth. That’s what’s meant by sufficient.

Your theology has grace as a necessity. But it isn’t sufficient to regenerate. God needs you to do something first.

Yes, grace is a necessity-and it’s actually sort of refreshing to know that some here at least understand the Catholic position pretty well. Anyway, God just refuses to make grace absolutely compelling, soliciting and coveting our participation instead. That's why faith pleases Him so immensely, for example-because of the possibility of our not embracing it, and of the good that comes as we do, as we begin to align ourselves with His will, with justice, with rectitude, with obedience.

And, again, that's why man wasn't simply compelled to obey in the beginning, in Eden, or ever since that time in the intervening centuries until “the fulness of time” had arrived and a sufficient maturity of sorts had been realized in humanity so that man might finally be ready for a "yes" to God, even if only a weak one at first. Grace couldn't have had the effect on Adam that it would as Adam (man) had a few centuries under his belt, a few centuries of man striving against and in competition with fellow man and the rest of creation, with all the ugly sin that selfishness and pride and covetousness pour out onto the earth when man is effectively “free” from God and His moral authority.

Meanwhile God was patiently working in and cultivating man. Revelation plays its part in this process, of course, with God demonstrating His anger over evils done by man and giving the law at another point in time so that we may gradually come to know righteousness and what it should consist of, and of our sinfulness in contrast, and so finally of our need for Him, now all the more ready to turn from our darkness when He shows us the light. Here, some will develop a hunger and thirst for righteousness and justice and hope and truth and love in a world that often seems to have little knowledge of or value for these things. Grace, revelation, experience: all ingredients, all part of the equation that turns a man to God.

 

[Hammster]

Are you saying Christians don't sin-that everything they do is just somehow automatically pleasing to God-always consistent with love??

No.

Are you saying there was no need for warning believers to refrain from returning to the flesh?

No.

Or to make effort to be holy because otherwise they won't see God?

It’s not because our holiness that we see God.

Or to overcome sin by the Spirit in order to gain eternal life?

Eternal life is a gift, not a wage.

Incidentally, the reason that a believer can finally please God isn't because of gratefulness per se but because of the change that's occurred in them as a result of being reborn, becoming His children.

Right. Grace.

IOW, righteousness isn't merely imputed to or declared of them at justification but given to them.

Righteousness is credited.

Otherwise they'd still just be sinners, forgiven but with no power over the old man and so with no reason or motivation to change behavior.

That is due to a new heart and the work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[zoidar]

When did the erasing happen? At the cross, or when you were made alive?

The punishment for sin happened at the cross, the erasing of our sins happened when we were made alive. It seems you want to put both the punishment for sin and the erasing of our sins at the time of the cross.

Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God,
— Hebrews 10:11-12

If your understanding is correct, Christ the High priest offers time after time the same sacrifice.

I don't think so because the sacrifice for sin is a one time deal, but forgiveness through the sacrifice is bestowed us when we are made alive.