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Propitiation

John Mullally

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My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
1 John 2:1-2

So it’s best to see “whole world” as referencing people throughout the world, as opposed to every single person in the world.
If John is referencing people throughout the world as you say instead of "the whole world", why didn't he just say that? Full acceptance of Gentile believers in Acts 15 happened at least 30 years earlier and there is no discussion of Jews or Gentiles in 1 John - so he is not telling his Jewish audience that Christ also atoned for Gentiles. 1 Timothy 2:6 confirms that Christ became a ransom for all.

1 Timothy 4:10 clearly states that God is the Savior of all people - how can God be the Savior of all people if Christ only atoned for some?

1 Timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
 
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d taylor

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This cannot be true since unbelief itself is a sin. In fact, there could be an argument made that it’s the greatest of all sins in that it ignores the very Creator of life Himself. Romans 1 makes it clear that everyone knows who God is, yet willfully suppresses that knowledge.

The sin of unbelief is forgiven. But just because that sin is forgiven, does not mean that God then will force His Eternal Life on a person.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
— 1 John 2:1-2

It’s is commonly understood that propitiation is the atoning sacrifice that appeases God’s wrath. That’s the definition I’m going with here. Looking at this passage, we can conclude one of two things. God's wrath was satisfied for some or for all. Those who think it’s for all take “whole world” prima facia and say God loved the whole world and bore the sins of every man. Those who say it’s only for some look at the context and see the “our sins” as John’s immediate audience, and “whole world” as indicating that it’s just not his audience, but others throughout the world.

My argument against the former is that if God’s wrath is satisfied by His Son’s sacrifice, then He would be unjust for sending anyone to hell. It would be akin to someone paying off my house in full, yet the bank foreclosing on my house. That would not be just.

So it’s best to see “whole world” as referencing people throughout the world, as opposed to every single person in the world.

The wrath of God is not taken away entirely by the cross. The cross just affords forgiveness, in the same way, the OT sacrifices did. We are warned not to take the cross lightly.

1Co 11:27-28 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup.

1Co 10:1-13 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness. Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, "THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND ROSE UP TO PLAY." Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

So the wrath of God, is against sin, and disobedience. It is not taken away by the cross. We must work together in unity with God to move away from our sins.


Rom 2:3-11 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who "WILL RENDER TO EACH ONE ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.

Rom 1:18-19 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
 
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biblelesson

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My cross-examination is to challenge what you say. It’s easy to post an opinion. It’s much harder to defend it.
What a Christian is going to tell you is based from the Bible, which the Christian did not write. A Christian will guide you to what God said from His word. A Christian will not debate opinions that do not line up with the Bible, but will try and help you understand the word. If you are debating what a Christian say, who is trying to guide you to scriptures, then the Christian cannot debate with you because most likely your debate is with God and His word, and not the Christisn.

I hope you understand.
 
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Hammster

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If John is referencing people throughout the world as you say instead of "the whole world", why didn't he just say that?
He did.
Full acceptance of Gentile believers in Acts 15 happened at least 30 years earlier and there is no discussion of Jews or Gentiles in 1 John - so he is not telling his Jewish audience that Christ also atoned for Gentiles. 1 Timothy 2:6 confirms that Christ became a ransom for all.
You are countering an argument I’ve not made.
1 Timothy 4:10 clearly states that God is the Savior of all people - how can God be the Savior of all people if Christ only atoned for some?

1 Timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
We are discussing propitiation in 1 John 2. So my question is, what’s your definition of propitiation?
 
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Hammster

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The sin of unbelief is forgiven. But just because that sin is forgiven, does not mean that God then will force His Eternal Life on a person.
I never said anything about forcing eternal life on anyone. All I’ve ever said was that if all sins are forgiven, then it would be unjust to send anyone to hell.
 
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Hammster

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The wrath of God is not taken away entirely by the cross. The cross just affords forgiveness, in the same way, the OT sacrifices did. We are warned not to take the cross lightly.

1Co 11:27-28 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup.

1Co 10:1-13 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness. Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, "THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND ROSE UP TO PLAY." Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

So the wrath of God, is against sin, and disobedience. It is not taken away by the cross. We must work together in unity with God to move away from our sins.


Rom 2:3-11 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who "WILL RENDER TO EACH ONE ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.

Rom 1:18-19 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
What’s your definition of propitiation?
 
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John Mullally

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If John is referencing people throughout the world as you say instead of "the whole world", why didn't he just say that?
You did not answer my question.
You are countering an argument I’ve not made.
I argued against your interpretation. Just like you argue against other's interpretations. It is called debate.
We are discussing propitiation in 1 John 2. So my question is, what’s your definition of propitiation?

Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more
pro·pi·ti·a·tion

noun
  1. the action of propitiating or appeasing a god, spirit, or person. "he lifted his hands in propitiation"
  1. atonement, especially that of Jesus Christ.

Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more
a·tone·ment

noun
  1. reparation for a wrong or injury. "she wanted to make atonement for her husband's behavior" (in religious contexts) reparation or expiation for sin. "an annual ceremony of confession and atonement for sin"
  2. CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY the reconciliation of God and humankind through Jesus Christ.
 
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d taylor

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I never said anything about forcing eternal life on anyone. All I’ve ever said was that if all sins are forgiven, then it would be unjust to send anyone to hell.

But you are still missing the point. No one is ever sent to hell because of sin. There is nowhere in The Bible that states that. The only reason a person goes to hell is because they lack the life of God.

having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart;

An unbeliever spends eternity in the lake of fire as a forgiven sinner who lacks the life of God.

I believe Jesus's accomplishment of taking away the sin of the world, was so complete. That even if an unbeliever who remains a sinner (their worm never dies) is able to comment sin in the lake of fire, those sins are also forgiven for all of eternity.

It is finished!
 
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Hammster

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What a Christian is going to tell you is based from the Bible, which the Christian did not write. A Christian will guide you to what God said from His word. A Christian will not debate opinions that do not line up with the Bible, but will try and help you understand the word. If you are debating what a Christian say, who is trying to guide you to scriptures, then the Christian cannot debate with you because most likely your debate is with God and His word, and not the Christisn.

I hope you understand.
I see. So since I’m a Christian, you believe that my OP is true. Cool.
 
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Hammster

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You did not answer my question.
I did. I said John said just that.
I argued against your interpretation. Just like you argue against other's interpretations. It is called debate.
Except I’m telling you that you are arguing against a point I’ve not made.
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more
pro·pi·ti·a·tion

noun
  1. the action of propitiating or appeasing a god, spirit, or person. "he lifted his hands in propitiation"
  2. atonement, especially that of Jesus Christ.

Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more
a·tone·ment

noun
  1. reparation for a wrong or injury. "she wanted to make atonement for her husband's behavior" (in religious contexts) reparation or expiation for sin. "an annual ceremony of confession and atonement for sin"
  2. CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY the reconciliation of God and humankind through Jesus Christ.
So we agree that God’s wrath was satisfied by Christ’s death for everyone whom it was intended for.
 
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Hammster

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But you are still missing the point. No one is ever sent to hell because of sin. There is nowhere in The Bible that states that. The only reason a person goes to hell is because they lack the life of God.

having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart;
Where is hell mentioned?
An unbeliever spends eternity in the lake of fire as a forgiven sinner who lacks the life of God.

I believe Jesus's accomplishment of taking away the sin of the world, was so complete. That even if an unbeliever who remains a sinner (their worm never dies) is able to comment sin in the lake of fire, those sins are also forgiven for all of eternity.

It is finished!
For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
— Ephesians 5:5

This definitely doesn’t describe someone who is forgiven.
 
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d taylor

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Where is hell mentioned?

For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
— Ephesians 5:5

This definitely doesn’t describe someone who is forgiven.

Inheritance is addressing rewards for believers a impure believer forfeits their inheritance in The Kingdom.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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What’s your definition of propitiation?

The one who has faith in Jesus according to scripture, God's wrath no longer remains on him/her. But this is not unconditional. The average Christain is genuine in commitment to God and seeks repentance, such a person experiences no wrath. But one who lacks respect, and seeks sin over God is on very shaky ground. The cross is not a sin excuser, it is a heart changer.

Romans 2:3-5 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
 
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fhansen

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You limit the atonement in that it didn’t pay for all sins. Limit means to restrict or confine. That’s what your view does in that God’s wrath isn’t applied to all sins.
You limit the atonement to applying to some people only. I view the atonement according to God's wise purpose for it.
 
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fhansen

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You limit the atonement in that it didn’t pay for all sins. Limit means to restrict or confine. That’s what your view does in that God’s wrath isn’t applied to all sins.
No, it doesn't apply if and when our sins become tantamount to mocking Him and the sacrifice of His Son, which has the purpose of overcoming sin and restoring true justice to His world. God awaits all men with open arms-He graces all, calling and enabling them to join in His embrace, but compels none to do so.
 
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d taylor

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Where is hell mentioned?

For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
— Ephesians 5:5

This definitely doesn’t describe someone who is forgiven.

Well it is not actually hell, but the lake of fire in Revelation
 
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John Mullally

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If John is referencing people throughout the world as you say instead of "the whole world", why didn't he just say that?
I did. I said John said just that.
I don't see any English translations of that passage reading like you say.
So we agree that God’s wrath was satisfied by Christ’s death for everyone whom it was intended for.
No we do not agree. You can review my answer in Post 60.
 
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Hammster

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I don't see any English translations of that passage reading like you say.
Do you know the definition of pas? If so, you’ll understand my point.
No we do not agree. You can review my answer in Post 60.
I have gone back and reread it. I’m not seeing where you disagree with my statement.
 
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Hammster

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Inheritance is addressing rewards for believers an impure believer forfeits their inheritance in The Kingdom.
I get that. But he’ll is punishment for sin.
 
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