Proper form of Baptism

[Godslilgurlalways]

That scripture directs how to baptize.

Right "the proper form for Baptism as far as the words are concerned." ( I think that it what you mean when you say directs how to baptized)

 

[JacktheCatholic]

All Pentecostals, Assembly of God, and Charismatics, goodness all of us use Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, except for oneness, or United Pentecostals. On that doctrine, we are all agreed with you. When I baptize someone, I say, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the name of Jesus. LOL That covers it. They get baptized both ways so no one can question it. More and more are just adding the name of Jesus to it after the Trinity.

I see...

Thanks the additional information. It seems like the Pentecostal church is trying to make all of it's members happy by providing the baptism and they wish it. Am I right?

 

[Dave01]

I see...

Thanks the additional information. It seems like the Pentecostal church is trying to make all of it's members happy by providing the baptism and they wish it. Am I right?

Not the church, the members sometimes ask for it that way. It get's rid of the debate for some folks.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Not the church, the members sometimes ask for it that way. It get's rid of the debate for some folks.

Thanks Dave.

 

[ehebett]

​

Personally I think what’s in your heart is more important then what was said over you.

​

 

[AllTalkNoAction]

Baptism is by full immersion (that's what the word means),
for believers only (otherwise you are not using faith so you are not pleasing God),
and it is identifying with the death of the saviour Jesus Christ for you
- that's what it means to be baptised "in his name".

The Acts accounts never say what was actually said by the baptiser when they baptised, so that isn't an issue.

What was asked was:-
"Unto what then were ye baptized?" (Acts 19:3)

Paul had just asked:-
"Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?" (v2)

So we are supposed to expect to receive the Holy Spirit, and we will know that we have received
(otherwise Paul would be asking a question they couldn't answer!).

Many preach a words-only "Jesus", and are told they are "saved" because they say they believe and are baptised.
Such people are not saved if they have not received the Holy Spirit the way the bible details
(Acts 19:6, 10:44-46, 2:4, 33, 39).

 

[Dave01]

Baptism is by full immersion (that's what the word means),
for believers only (otherwise you are not using faith so you are not pleasing God),
and it is identifying with the death of the saviour Jesus Christ for you
- that's what it means to be baptised "in his name".

The Acts accounts never say what was actually said by the baptiser when they baptised, so that isn't an issue.

What was asked was:-
"Unto what then were ye baptized?" (Acts 19:3)

Paul had just asked:-
"Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?" (v2)

So we are supposed to expect to receive the Holy Spirit, and we will know that we have received
(otherwise Paul would be asking a question they couldn't answer!).

Many preach a words-only "Jesus", and are told they are "saved" because they say they believe and are baptised.
Such people are not saved if they have not received the Holy Spirit the way the bible details
(Acts 19:6, 10:44-46, 2:4, 33, 39).

This is the sort of wrong teaching that get's thrown on this board because of a master list.

Everyone who is born-again received The Holy Spirit at that moment. The Apostles received The Holy Spirit when they were born-again back in John 20:22 and so do we,..

22 (ASV) And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Spirit:

This was prior to His ascension. Acts 2 happened after His ascension and is an entirely different event. They did not receive The Holy Spirit during that event, they received the gifts and power for service at that point.

No one receives The Holy Spirit after water baptism, they receive Him when they are born-again. Salvation is not dependant on water baptism. None of the apostles were water baptised after John 20:22, so water baptism has no part whatsoever in our salvation, it is only an obediance command.

The idea that you are not saved unless you are water baptized in the name of Jesus is a heretical teaching, and one that oneness pentecostals like to promote.

 

[AllTalkNoAction]

. .. Everyone who is born-again received The Holy Spirit at that moment. The Apostles received The Holy Spirit when they were born-again back in John 20:22 and so do we,..

John 21:21: Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
:22: Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
:23: Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

Why did I quote that from the proceeding chapter to John 20:21 ?

Simple !
- because you have made exactly the same mistake !

In John 20:22, Jesus does NOT say that they received the Holy Spirit, or that they were born again !!

He commands them to receive the Holy Spirit, but he has already carefully explained over the space of several chapters (John 14-16, and see John 7:39) that the Holy Spirit would not be sent until after he had returned to the Father.

To say that they were born again / received the Holy Spirit in John 20:20 is gross and dangerous error.

This was prior to His ascension. Acts 2 happened after His ascension and is an entirely different event. They did not receive The Holy Spirit during that event, they received the gifts and power for service at that point.

That's what you say, but let's see what the bible says:-

Ac:2:33: Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

So you are saying that they had already received the Holy Spirit, but not the promise of the Holy Spirit ?

This is complicated confusion!

There is "one Spirit", who is synonymously referred to as "the Spirit of promise" (Eph.4:5, 1:13), "the promise of my Father" (Luke 24:49). You have 2 classes of Christian !
Those with and those without this promise !

How can you have received the Spirit of God (a Spirit of power, love and sound mind - 2 Tim.1:7) but not his power ?

Either you have The Spirit or you don't !

No one receives The Holy Spirit after water baptism,

That's what you say, but let's see what the bible says:-

Ac:8:15: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
:16: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

(see also Acts 19:5-6)

 

[Dave01]

John 21:21: Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
:22: Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
:23: Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

Why did I quote that from the proceeding chapter to John 20:21 ?

Simple !
- because you have made exactly the same mistake !

I think you may have your chapters and quotes messed up.

In John 20:22, Jesus does NOT say that they received the Holy Spirit, or that they were born again !!

He commands them to receive the Holy Spirit, but he has already carefully explained over the space of several chapters (John 14-16, and see John 7:39) that the Holy Spirit would not be sent until after he had returned to the Father.

Incorrect.

The reason why they received at that point, is there is action associated with what Jesus said,..

22 (ASV) And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Spirit:

This event is also verfied in Acts 1:2,..

2 (LIT) until the day He was taken up, having given directions to the apostles whom He chose, through the Holy Spirit,

This greek structure is in our earliers greek manuscripts. It is also seen in the syriac translation,..

2 (Murdoch) until the day when he was taken up, after he had instructed those legates {or: apostles} whom he had chosen by the Holy Spirit.

Very simple for people to see now that we have greek manuscripts that spell it out better. Acts describes the Apostles as being chosen by The Holy Spirit already, which relates to what Jesus did in John 20:22. There is no other event that describes a sort of "choosing" by Jesus.

That's what you say, but let's see what the bible says:-

Ac:2:33: Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

So you are saying that they had already received the Holy Spirit, but not the promise of the Holy Spirit ?

This is complicated confusion!

There is "one Spirit", who is synonymously referred to as "the Spirit of promise" (Eph.4:5, 1:13), "the promise of my Father" (Luke 24:49). You have 2 classes of Christian !
Those with and those without this promise !

How can you have received the Spirit of God (a Spirit of power, love and sound mind - 2 Tim.1:7) but not his power ?

Either you have The Spirit or you don't !


That's what you say, but let's see what the bible says:-

Ac:8:15: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
:16: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

(see also Acts 19:5-6)

Again incorrect in your examples.

Before Jesus ascended to heaven, He commanded the believers to do certain things, and one of those things was recorded near the end of the gospel of Luke,..

49 (ASV) And behold, I send forth the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city, until ye be clothed with power from on high.

The text is witnessed in Acts also,..

8 (LIT) but you will receive power, the Holy Spirit coming upon you, and you will be witnesses of Me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.

Jesus told them twice that they would recieve the power of The Holy Spirit coming "upon" them, not within them, because they had receive The Holy Spirit already prior to His ascension.

There is one area that requires looking at also, Acts 2:38,..

38 (ASV) And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

If the english translation is left to read this way, it leads a person to think that Christians don't receive The Holy Spirit until after they are water baptised, which is baptismal regeneration in it's purest sense,...and a big no-no.

The greek article in front of "gift" can be translated as "this or that" instead of just "the" to align with scripture, or else it won't agree with the actions and sayings of Jesus prior to His ascension.

This has been pointed out to you before alltalknoaction, and you have continued to sidestep it somehow, and all I can assume is you wish to teach baptismal regeneration, which is an unorthodox teaching.

 

[AllTalkNoAction]

I think you may have your chapters and quotes messed up.

No, you missed the point Dave.

Incorrect.
The reason why they received at that point, is there is action associated with what Jesus said,..

Poor reasoning Dave.
Many of Jesus' physical actions throughout his earthly ministry were prophetic of his ministry now through the Holy Spirit.

Spitting on the dust to make clay, turning water into wine, walking on water, washing feet . . . .

This "breathing on them" points to Pentecost where there is a rushing mighty "wind", the word translated "wind" is not the normal word for wind, such as what happened on the sea of Galilee where they thought they would drown, the word is actually breath.

The Spirit ("The Comforter") could not be given until Jesus had returned to heaven to receive Him from the Father .. .

Joh:15:26: But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father,:16:7: Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
. . . 10 . .I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

See also John 14:16-20, 7:39, Acts 2:33.

Your doctrine also means that Jesus had received the Holy Spirit to impart which means he must have secretly returned to the Father without the bible mentioning this great event, only to come down again and be seen by them, then to rise a second time - is this what you believe ?

This event is also verfied in Acts 1:2,..

Nonsense Dave, He originally chose his apostles at the beginning of his ministry, not the end !

Jesus told them twice that they would recieve the power of The Holy Spirit coming "upon" them, not within them, because they had receive The Holy Spirit already prior to His ascension.

Just because 2 different words are used "in" and "upon" does not mean there are 2 stages of receiving the Holy Spirit, first without, then with his power.

Different terms are often used to describe the same thing .. . we have "the Spirit of Truth", "the Comforter", etc, describing the same "ONE Spirit".

Jesus has already said when the Spirit would be in them - it is when he is back with the Father, not still on earth with them - you are clearly not understanding or believing the scriptures I quoted at the top of this post.

. . . and your doctrine would have us beliebe there is a difference between receiving the Holy Spirit and receiving the promise of The Holy Spirit !!

There is one area that requires looking at also, Acts 2:38,..
If the english translation is left to read this way, it leads a person to think that Christians don't receive The Holy Spirit until after they are water baptised,

So, when you quote Acts 2:38 to people, you quickly re-interpret it to say:-
"repent and you receive the Holy Spirit, then get baptised"

How does one know one has received the Spirit given that "the heart is deceitful above all things" (Jer. 17:9)

Because you think you have repented, or do you do as the apostles did and wait for God to bare independant witness with his sign of tongues, or just hope for the best, or some other way ?

This has been pointed out to you before alltalknoaction, and you have continued to sidestep it somehow, and all I can assume is you wish to teach baptismal regeneration, which is an unorthodox teaching.

If you listened the first time you wouldn't have to make incorrect assumptions.
Regeneration is when a person received the Holy Spirit, this can happen before or after water baptism and water baptism does not mean that the person has received, even if they were baptised as a believer.

And you are saying people didn't receive the Holy Spirit after baptism, when the bible says:-
Acts 8:15: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
:16: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

 

[Dave01]

Poor reasoning Dave.
Many of Jesus' physical actions throughout his earthly ministry were prophetic of his ministry now through the Holy Spirit.

Spitting on the dust to make clay, turning water into wine, walking on water, washing feet . . . .

This "breathing on them" points to Pentecost where there is a rushing mighty "wind", the word translated "wind" is not the normal word for wind, such as what happened on the sea of Galilee where they thought they would drown, the word is actually breath.

The Spirit ("The Comforter") could not be given until Jesus had returned to heaven to receive Him from the Father .. .

Joh:15:26: But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father,:16:7: Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
. . . 10 . .I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

See also John 14:16-20, 7:39, Acts 2:33.

Your doctrine also means that Jesus had received the Holy Spirit to impart which means he must have secretly returned to the Father without the bible mentioning this great event, only to come down again and be seen by them, then to rise a second time - is this what you believe ?

Nonsense Dave, He originally chose his apostles at the beginning of his ministry, not the end !

Just because you refuse to believe what the early greek manuscripts say, doesn't make it mean anything different here. Pay attention to the wording,..

2 (LIT) until the day He was taken up, having given directions to the apostles whom He chose, through the Holy Spirit,

The Apostles were not chosen by The Holy Spirit prior to Jesus's death since the new testament required His shed blood to be in effect. The only point the apostles could have received the new testament born-again experience was after Jesus rose from the grave, elsewise you are attempting to say that the OT saved people and thereby invalidating the work on the cross that Jesus did.

The only point in the gospels that states that they received The Holy Spirit was in John 20:22, no where else. You have nothing to point at and say the apostles had received the new-birth experienc of the new testament except for John 20:22. There is no other place that describes them receiving The Holy Spirit but there, unless you are trying to say that the Apostles were not born-again?!?

You are caught between a rock and a hard place here fella. You can't say that the apostles received the new birth under the OT because it never saved anyone and Jesus wasn't crucified yet, and you can't say they received it over in acts 2 because there is nothing in the scriptures in that area that identifies them ever being born-again, nothing.

The only logical conclusion one can make of John 20:22 is that The Apostles received The Holy Spirit at that moment when Jesus breathed upon them. That was their born-again experience that brought them into the new testament after Jesus rose again, and the early Greek manuscripts just happen to testify to that event. If you don't accept that as fact, the apostles have no record of them ever being true born-again Christians.

Just because 2 different words are used "in" and "upon" does not mean there are 2 stages of receiving the Holy Spirit, first without, then with his power.

Different terms are often used to describe the same thing .. . we have "the Spirit of Truth", "the Comforter", etc, describing the same "ONE Spirit".

Jesus has already said when the Spirit would be in them - it is when he is back with the Father, not still on earth with them - you are clearly not understanding or believing the scriptures I quoted at the top of this post.

. . . and your doctrine would have us beliebe there is a difference between receiving the Holy Spirit and receiving the promise of The Holy Spirit !!

So, when you quote Acts 2:38 to people, you quickly re-interpret it to say:-
"repent and you receive the Holy Spirit, then get baptised"

How does one know one has received the Spirit given that "the heart is deceitful above all things" (Jer. 17:9)

Because you think you have repented, or do you do as the apostles did and wait for God to bare independant witness with his sign of tongues, or just hope for the best, or some other way ?

If you listened the first time you wouldn't have to make incorrect assumptions.

You making things up here to try and justify your stance.

There is no, read that, no,..biblical example of anyone ever being born again from water baptism, none.

There are biblical examples of people being born-again from repentence,...

41 (ASV) They then {1} that received his word were baptized: and there were added unto them in that day about three thousand souls. {1) Or having received}

But there is NO biblical example of people being born-again by water baptism.

Also, the greek is very specific in this area,..

The main verb in this verse is Metanoesate (3340) meaning, "repent." This refers to that initial repentance of a sinner unto salvation. The verb translated "be baptized" is in the indirect passive imperative of baptizo (907), which means that it does not have the same force as the direct command of "repent." The preposition "for" in the phrase "for the remission of sins" in Greek is eis (1519), "unto." Literally it means "for the purpose of identifying you with the remission of sins." This same preposition is used in 1 Corinthians 10:2 in the phrase "and were all baptized unto (eis) Moses." These people were identifying themselves with the work and ministry of Moses. Repentance is something that concerns an individual and GOD, while baptism is intended to be a testimony to other people. That is why baptistheto, "to be baptized," is in the passive voice indicating that one does not baptize himself, but he is baptized by another usually in the presence of others.

That was from Zodhiates, the greek doesn't lie, it is very exact.

Regeneration is when a person received the Holy Spirit, this can happen before or after water baptism and water baptism does not mean that the person has received, even if they were baptised as a believer.

And this seems to be your whole focus really, attempting to say that we can receive The Holy Spirit at some point after we are born again instead of when we are born-again. You're trying to make a case of annuling the seal of redemption until after people are water baptised, and that is a heretical teaching fella. This is the sort of theology that Oneness Pentecostals promote.

And you are saying people didn't receive the Holy Spirit after baptism, when the bible says:-
Acts 8:15: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
:16: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

You threw that scripture out there real quick huh?

This is you attributing things incorrectly by scripture and not weighing everything accordingly. This is you not understanding two separate events demonstrated in our bible for a purpose.

Let's look at acts again,..

5 (LIT) for John indeed baptized in water, but you will be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days after."


8 (LIT) but you will receive power, the Holy Spirit coming upon you, and you will be witnesses of Me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.

Notice, nowhere in these two examples does Jesus attribute a saving grace here to the believers, nowhere. His focus is power to be witnesses of His unto the world, not repentance.

The main problem with your idea here is that you're attempting to say a true believer can be saved but not sealed with The Holy Spirit for the day of redemption.

That is impossible.

You didn't think this through did you?