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PROOFS OF THE EXISTENCE OF GOD

DogmaHunter

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We live in a reasonable world and yours is not reasonable even if it is possible

It seems like you are not aware that forensics will practically always do an autopsy to determine the actual cause of death.

It is also possible the stabber of the dead corpse was martians.

Yep. But not very plausible, though.
You understand the difference between "possible" and "plausible", right?

If your scenario is possible, why is my addition impossible?

I don't think I called your addition "impossible".
If the question is "who or what put those stabs there?", then the most reasonable answer are those things that we know engage in stabbing, which is humans.

It is "possible" (in the sense that it can't be shown false) that the stabber was an alien, an angel, the cat, or a god. However given what we know about knives and humans, it doesn't seem very reasonable to suggests anything but a human.

Now, let's contrast that with living things...
I know of no factory where living things come rolling down the assembly line. Do you?

But we DO know about a process that makes living things change over generations. And this process makes a boatload of predictions about what we should and shouldn't see in the world. And all of them check out - no exceptions.


If you find a dead body with multiple stab wounds and a knife sticking out of her chest then the most reasonable is a murder.

At first sight, yes. Now, what if the autopsy shows that the person actually died from a heart attack and was already dead for 2 days when the stabbing took place?

Besides either scenario refutes your original assertion.

What assertion?

Well really what can you say since you all would have us believe an organism as complicated as a jumbo jet

A jumbo jet is a machine, not an organism.

can self assemble under magical circumstances along with imaginary precursors. It is blind faith.

There is nothing "magical" about a natural process of mutate, survive, reproduce, repeat.
Neither do I require "faith" (blind or otherwise) to accept facts of reality.
 
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xianghua

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Because of the evidence that it did.
so if we have no good evidence that a motor can evolve then you will conclude design? remember:you will need a very strong evidence that a motor can evolve naturally. because as far as we know- only an intelligent can produce a motor.
 
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DogmaHunter

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so if we have no good evidence that a motor can evolve then you will conclude design?

No, because it would still be a baseless assertion.
You have to actually demonstrate the causal chain - not just assert it.

I already explained to you why calling it a motor only works in the sense of comparing function.

remember:you will need a very strong evidence that a motor can evolve naturally.

And we have that evidence.
In contrast, you have exactly ZERO evidence that the flagellum was manufactured (this is the part where we stop calling it a "motor", because of the implications of baggage I explained earlier).

because as far as we know- only an intelligent can produce a motor.

That is only true for motors that look like this:
upload_2017-6-6_14-43-22.png


upload_2017-6-6_14-43-46.png


upload_2017-6-6_14-44-1.png


You know.... things that are assembled from materials that don't even occur in the wild. Things that bare all the hallmarks of manufacturing. Things that have brand names on them and labels reading "made in china".

Biological organisms don't exhibit such traits.
 
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Speedwell

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so a ufo isnt evidence for aliens. i think that most scientists will disagree with this.
Intentionally misrepresenting what I said will not help you.

If we found one of your imaginary self-replicating organic autogyros on another planet,
1. we might conclude it was designed, or
2. we might not be able to tell if it was designed or not.

Those are the only two options.

But complexity and functionality are not evidence of design. In order to conclude that the imaginary self-replicating organic autogyro was designed, there would have to be some other evidence.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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That is complexity not specified complexity. A snowflake is highly complex but low to no specification (complexity allowing functional specified role). That is the coffee cup cream / entropy you describe.
Specified complexity is a nonsense.

What we see in cellular life is vastly different. Highly complex and highly specified. Nature's laws have not and cannot account for it describe this.
If you were to take specified complexity seriously (I'd advise against it), you should be able to see that what evolution by natural selection does is to produce specified complexity in abundance.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Easy to claim but very impossible to convincingly and specifically demonstrate how in many specific cases.

Extremely easy to demonstrate.

Even a simple piece of software using a genetic algorithm already demonstrates it.
 
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dmmesdale

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It seems like you are not aware that forensics will practically always do an autopsy to determine the actual cause of death.
The police do not need permission from the coroner to do an investigation. If it is a dead body with multiple stab wounds and a knife sticking out of her chest then the most plausible is a murder, not a heart attack in which somebody comes along and decides to multiple stab a dead corpse. I initially wrote it would be evidence of a murder and you denied that.
Nope. Not from these facts alone.
If it is not evidence of a murder then what is? They do not wait around for the coroner to OK a murder investigation. The coroner's report would determine whether it goes to court, it would not stop investigation.
The person could have died from a heart attack and stabbed a couple of hours later.
Do you know what plausible is? Or do you exempt yourself from your impositions? Do as you say and not as you do?
You need additional investigation to infer the actual cause of death.
You don't need it to do an investigation. Based on the initial facts, they can investigate it as a murder and start to look for suspects.
Yep. But not very plausible, though.
You understand the difference between "possible" and "plausible," right?
See above.
Now, let's contrast that with living things...
I know of no factory where living things come rolling down the assembly line. Do you?
No and assembly line would be an analogy of what happens inside a bacteria. It should be obvious to anybody and take it literally is what fundies do. Can't make the distinction between analogy and literal.
At first sight, yes. Now, what if the autopsy shows that the person actually died from a heart attack and was already dead for 2 days when the stabbing took place?
And what happens if a monkey did the stabbing? If your scenario is determined, then they would still look for the stabber of the corpse. The point being it did not happen naturally. There was an intervention of a living source.
A jumbo jet is a machine, not an organism.
Again Jumbo jet is an analogy, not literal. The same errors are repeated. The problem here is obstruction because you do not want to deal with the reality. Both are complicated and built by intelligence. That is an inference to the best explanation. If you are saying naturedidit then you bear the burden. Blind faith and wishful thinking not compelling and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
 
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DogmaHunter

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The police do not need permission from the coroner to do an investigation. If it is a dead body with multiple stab wounds and a knife sticking out of her chest then the most plausible is a murder, not a heart attack in which somebody comes along and decides to multiple stab a dead corpse. I initially wrote it would be evidence of a murder and you denied that.

I didn't deny anything of the sort. What I actually said is that in such cases, the "at first sight" plausible conclusion is rarely simply accepted with no further questions asked.
Which is why I said that even in such cases, autopsies are STILL done to objectively determine the cause of death, eventhough it might seem obvious at first sight.

This is what forensics does....

Do you know what plausible is?

Yes. Do you understand the difference between "plausible" and "possible"?


You don't need it to do an investigation. Based on the initial facts, they can investigate it as a murder and start to look for suspects.

Well, someone or something surely put those stabs and knife in that body.
Wheter or not it will be a murder trial will depend on the actual cause of death.
Yes, most likely the cause of death will be the stabbing and most likely it will result in a murder trial.

But, as I said, if the autopsy points out that the person died from natural causes and then was stabbed while already dead... it will no longer be a murder trial, but something else...
Or it might be the equivalent if the stabber thought the person was sleeping for example, then it will still have had the intention of murder.

The whole point here, is to show you that what might seem the case at first sight, is not necessarily the case after further investigation.

No and assembly line would be an analogy of what happens inside a bacteria. It should be obvious to anybody and take it literally is what fundies do. Can't make the distinction between analogy and literal.

LOL!!! says the guy who started the whole analogy thingy.
And, btw, what happens inside a bacteria, is biochemistry.


If your scenario is determined, then they would still look for the stabber of the corpse.

Yes. But it would not be a murder case. Which was the point.

Again to summarize that point: what seems the case at first sight, isn't necessarily the case.

So, when a living thing seems designed at first sight, it doesn't mean that it actually is.

Again Jumbo jet is an analogy, not literal.

It's a false analogy.

The problem here is obstruction because you do not want to deal with the reality.

Says the guy who goes with his interpretation of an ancient text which is in direct contradiction with reality....

Both are complicated and built by intelligence

That's just your bare claim. And you are using that bare claim as a premise in your analogy. Which is exactly why it is a false analogy.

Jumbo Jets don't reproduce with variation, don't compete with peers over limited resources and aren't engaged in a struggle for survival.

This means that jumbo jets aren't subject to the process of evolution. Living things are. Because living things DO reproduce with variation, DO compete with peers over limited resources and ARE engaged in a struggle for survival.

Since that is the actual subject of discussion, to compare life with jumbo jets is a false analogy.

That is an inference to the best explanation.

No, it's just a claim with zero explanatory power. In fact, the actual facts of reality contradict your claim.

If you are saying naturedidit then you bear the burden.

That burden has been met a long time ago. It seems you missed 200 years of biological science. +300.000 papers have been published on the subject.

You can read in my signature what Francis Collins, a devout christian and biologist, has to say on the subject.

Blind faith and wishful thinking not compelling and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Indeed. So when you make the wild claims that you make, it seems you have your work cut out for you.
 
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Motherofkittens

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This is the best of all of the arguments. I wish I could award the 'winner' rating to only this part of the post.
In a few decades Islam will be the biggest religion. Not all religious people have "experiences" but those that do are from every single religion. So what makes your "experience" true will millions if not billions of other peoples "experiences" are wrong?
 
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Speedwell

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In a few decades Islam will be the biggest religion. Not all religious people have "experiences" but those that do are from every single religion. So what makes your "experience" true will millions if not billions of other peoples "experiences" are wrong?
My "experience" is shaped by my expectations. True or false does not come into it.
 
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AV1611VET

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Evidence of intelligent manufacture; refined materials, tool marks, etc. Really, Xianghua, we've been over this with you many times.
Tool marks are flaws, caused by hammer strikes, metal etching, and the like.

An omnipotent God could create things without tool marks.

Especially if He didn't use tools to do it.
 
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Motherofkittens

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I would ask the theistic evos the same. Why did it take humans 190 K years to domesticate animals, use seed, invent the wheel, or write anyting down? Asuming humans came to be 200K years? There lies the actual evidence. Not cooked up nonsense to to validate a fairy tale. The ancients had their myths and we have ours. If you wish to assert humans came from fish then you need to produce some sort of empirical evidence. Otherwise it is more akin to blind faith, long on story and short on evidence.

Why do you think it took 6000 (or 20000 or what ever amount you think it took) years for the industrial and technological revolutions? Is it because things go very slow and slowly progress and then sometimes there might be fast advancments? Thhere are still tribes that have neither of those and one tribe in a property of India doesn't even have fire. Why is it taking them so long to advance?

There are books all about that and the building of societies. Its very interesting. But basically when some groups finally figured out how to seed they settled in that area and grew they then had new problems from when they were small groups hunting and gathering they then needed writing and shelter and to domesticate animals and so on .

Why it took so long to seed? Perhaps because they thrived or at least survived without it. Why look for new things when you are doing fine without it? You should read books and articles about it. I'm not doing it justice.
 
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AV1611VET

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Why do you think it took 6000 (or 20000 or what ever amount you think it took) years for the industrial and technological revolutions?
It's called the Tower of Babel incident.

Technology was advancing faster than normal (due to our sin nature), and it was starting to surpass the mores of the time; getting to the point where God had to do something, lest technology outclass their ability to handle it.

Genesis 11:5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
Genesis 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

Motherofkittens said:
Is it because things go very slow and slowly progress and then sometimes there might be fast advancments?
It is because God hid easter eggs (resources) in the earth, that wouldn't be discovered until the proper time.

With the confusion that resulted from the incident, technology suffered a severe setback; and actually got back on God's timetable.

Later on, Aristotle would come along with junk science and stunt its growth for two thousand years.
 
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