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PROOFS OF THE EXISTENCE OF GOD

dmmesdale

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I'm not saying ID is wrong, but you want to prove it by showing that evolution is incapable, you'll have to deal with the math--what you call "esoteric mumbo jumbo."
Dealing with the math is one way. Not the exclusive only way.
Evolution is capable of producing the biological complexity we observe; the question is, did it?
They say natural processes or chemical reactions in which evolution is the supposed result. Our ancient ancestors were fish. It is a counter and inferior explanation based on modern and secular creation myths. Not exact science.
 
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Speedwell

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Dealing with the math is one way. Not the exclusive only way. They say natural processes or chemical reactions in which evolution is the supposed result. Our ancient ancestors were fish. It is a counter and inferior explanation based on modern and secular creation myths. Not exact science.
So what if our ancient ancestors were fish? We're here now regardless.
 
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dmmesdale

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So what if our ancient ancestors were fish? We're here now regardless.
Well then i suppose you would have to map out a transition scenario and deduce things like how many transitions would it take for fish to become humans and how does that align with the time and all by blind chance since the process is construed as upward in development in exact contradiction to everything we observe. Things aren't getting better overall. Species are dying out, not evolving. If the start is dirt or chemicals and the end is humans, then the path is upwards to an astounding degree. You can't drive across the United States in two hours, and you can't go from fish to humans in so short of time by blind change. The assertions are preposterous. By the by. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Fish to humans are about as believable as hippos to whales and both carry the exact amount of empirical evidence. Zilch. They are all faith.

If for example sonar in subs for the hunting of other subs is intelligently designed then why is sonar in whales for the hunting of squid the single result of natural processes?

If there is sonar in whales, then the system was installed. They did not evolve because the creature needed it to survive. Same with birds enabled with flight navigation to fly thousands of miles to exact nesting locations.

We can be inoculated for measles, but that immunity does not pass to our offspring. We do not necessarily pass advantages to our family to enable them to survive better even if we have them.

As far as I know, we can introduce the exact type of smallpox virus to children today, and they would come down with it as quick as could be. Even if our predecessors were massively inoculated and it was wiped out. If there was anything to evolution, then we should be able to predict at least a certain amount of immunity in later generations since that survival trait would be passed on. In the same way, whales somehow are enabled with sonar to hunt squid. Besides, if the whole process is blind then there is no way to make predictions and if you can't make predictions then is it science in the first place?

Or do them standards only apply to intelligent design and Evo gets a pass?
 
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Speedwell

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Well then i suppose you would have to map out a transition scenario and deduce things like how many transitions would it take for fish to become humans and how does that align with the time and all by blind chance since the process is construed as upward in development in exact contradiction to everything we observe. Things aren't getting better overall. Species are dying out, not evolving. If the start is dirt or chemicals and the end is humans, then the path is upwards to an astounding degree. You can't drive across the United States in two hours, and you can't go from fish to humans in so short of time by blind change. The assertions are preposterous. By the by. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

If for example sonar in subs for the hunting of other subs is intelligently designed then why is sonar in whales for the hunting of squid the single result of natural processes?

If there is sonar in whales, then the system was installed. They did not evolve because the creature needed it to survive. Same with birds enabled with flight navigation to fly thousands of miles to exact nesting locations.

We can be inoculated for measles, but that immunity does not pass to our offspring. We do not necessarily pass advantages to our family to enable them to survive better even if we have them.
I'm not trying to justify the theory of evolution to you. I'm asking you, so what if it was correct? This thread is supposed to be about the existence of God, which evolution does not deny.
 
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dmmesdale

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I'm not trying to justify the theory of evolution to you. I'm asking you, so what if it was correct? This thread is supposed to be about the existence of God, which evolution does not deny.
I would ask the theistic evos the same. Why did it take humans 190 K years to domesticate animals, use seed, invent the wheel, or write anyting down? Asuming humans came to be 200K years? There lies the actual evidence. Not cooked up nonsense to to validate a fairy tale. The ancients had their myths and we have ours. If you wish to assert humans came from fish then you need to produce some sort of empirical evidence. Otherwise it is more akin to blind faith, long on story and short on evidence.
 
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JDD_III

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New traits have been observed to develop. Nylon-eating bacteria is a great example.

Mutations make random changes to the genome, there is a chance that any given change creates a increased statistical likelihood of survival. That and reproductive isolation is all evolution needs.

I've never seen a useful and measurable definition of the creationist version of "Information", but I'd be very interested if you have one.

This is not new information resulting in new beneficial functionality. It is mutational adaptation of degenerating existing information to provide new functionality. A loss in specificity of an already existing complex enzyme does not fit the bill of new information resulting in new beneficial function.

And that is the claim evolution makes has occurred literally billions of times.

Nylonase is also literally the best example anyone seems to be able to cite when asked this question.
 
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JDD_III

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Yet Markov processes based on variation and selection are demonstrably capable of producing biological complexity--the math is air tight.
False. Markov processes are able to predict the future.

Evolution cannot even explain the present.

If you want predictability and true Markov processes see Behe's Edge of Evolution. He made a prediction based on random mutations and observations that predicted something that turned out to be exactly true. And it is in line with a limit of evolution that is impossible to reconcile any of the grand claims of macroevolution.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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So remind me how science has demonstrated scientifically that RM + NS can result in functionally new and beneficial information?
Assuming you mean random mutation, and natural selection; the mutations provide the variation (novel genetic sequences, i.e. new information) and the selection preferentially filters out the significantly disadvantageous changes. What's left are the changes that are not sufficiently deleterious to be a reproductive disadvantage. These may include some reproductively advantageous changes.

It's not rocket science, it happens to any group of replicators that have heritable variability and are under selection pressure(s).
 
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Shemjaza

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The cell or the bacteria itself is the evidence. The complication of a jumbo jet on a speck is an observation, and the intelligent source is the conclusion based on the observation. They are reasoning from effect to cause. It is following the evidene and not explaining it away due to prior comittments to myths. Assigning supernatural creative powers to chemical reactions etc.

If the earth is the right size, the right temp, the right atmosphere along with the right distance from the sun with the exact right type of moon then it is all evidence of construction not natural processes or blind circumstances. So you have a host of external and internal circumstances far sufficient enuf to convince reasonable persons unhindered by denial of the obvious.
Repeating yourself that it's obvious doesn't make it evidence.

No one is disputing that life is complicated, but the changes we observe from mutations and the winnowing we observe in form of selection are sufficient to account for the changes. If you want to add extra processes that design or build life you need to demonstrate that they are necessary and/or possible.

The unusual characteristics of the Earth certainly allow for the environment for life like ours to exist, but in a universe of over a hundred billion galaxies with over a hundred billion stars in each, the concept of unlikely seems to fade away.
This is not new information resulting in new beneficial functionality. It is mutational adaptation of degenerating existing information to provide new functionality. A loss in specificity of an already existing complex enzyme does not fit the bill of new information resulting in new beneficial function.

And that is the claim evolution makes has occurred literally billions of times.

Nylonase is also literally the best example anyone seems to be able to cite when asked this question.
Can you please define information and how you measure it in the context that you use?

Segments of DNA can be changed, duplicated, swapped and all of these can have an effect on fitness and function. So that is all that is needed to allow for evolution.

AGGACTAATG
AGGBCTAATG
AGGBCTAATAATG
AGGBCTAATAGTG
AGGACTAATAGTG

How do you measure the "information" changes in these generations of DNA sequences?

Nylonase is the best example because it is literally what Creationists seem to be calling impossible and it can be repeatedly observed in human time frames. We have genetic and fossil evidence for much larger scale developments, but they take a little more evidence to understand. Human lactose tolerance is an example.
 
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JDD_III

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Repeating yourself that it's obvious doesn't make it evidence.

No one is disputing that life is complicated, but the changes we observe from mutations and the winnowing we observe in form of selection are sufficient to account for the changes. If you want to add extra processes that design or build life you need to demonstrate that they are necessary and/or possible.

The unusual characteristics of the Earth certainly allow for the environment for life like ours to exist, but in a universe of over a hundred billion galaxies with over a hundred billion stars in each, the concept of unlikely seems to fade away.

Can you please define information and how you measure it in the context that you use?

Segments of DNA can be changed, duplicated, swapped and all of these can have an effect on fitness and function. So that is all that is needed to allow for evolution.

AGGACTAATG
AGGBCTAATG
AGGBCTAATAATG
AGGBCTAATAGTG
AGGACTAATAGTG

How do you measure the "information" changes in these generations of DNA sequences?

Nylonase is the best example because it is literally what Creationists seem to be calling impossible and it can be repeatedly observed in human time frames. We have genetic and fossil evidence for much larger scale developments, but they take a little more evidence to understand. Human lactose tolerance is an example.
New information is what i am after. That is, nylonase is information but not new. The reason it is not new is because it does not have any explanatory power for increased complexity and introducing truly novel function.

It is not difficult - enzymes around us have high specificity, usually log-fold for preferred substrates. This is the general observation we have. Nylonase is a pre-existing complex enzyme that has activity for a substrate structurally similar to synthetic nylon. Mutations give a reduced specificity version of the enzyme. That is not an increase in new information of benefit. That is more like genetic entropy some have postulated.

The example most people use is of Lenski's experiments and that is 95% of the time presented in a highly deceptive manner.

I know well the theory of how random mutations and natural selection produces adaptive changes and we see this in practice. However every example i have seen is a loss of information which means the evidence for this process producing increased complexity (think unicellular to multicellular multi-organ system organisms) is inferred, extrapolated, assumed. It then comes down to arguments from homology which is antecedent fallacy all over again.

The evolution might posit that nylonase is a step-wise fashion towards a duplication then increase in specificity towards nylon with a version retaining specificity towards the pre-existing substrate, but even then there us no mechanism described to account for the origin of that first enzyme - you are still using pre-existing information already at many bits of complexity, beyond what chance would suggest probable.

A stepwise amino acid sequence shoeing benegit at each stage to achieve something as fundamental to life as ATPase would be impressive and convincing evidence.

But as Behe successfully predicted, the limit if evolution really only is a very few number of amino acid changes due to the deleterious effects that pervade getting from one beneficial protein step-wise to another in the timeframes, generation times, mutation rates and other considerations. In fact some evolutionary studies have looked at homologous sequences and determined many routes of mutation have this struggle to achieve - i.e. get through severely deleterious mutations to get from one sequence to the next inter-organism (see publications from Thornton).
 
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xianghua

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The difference is that when scientists use those words, they aren't implying additional baggage like "machines and motors are manufactured!!!".
so the flagellum is a spinning motor. even according to scientists. great. why we should believe that a motor can evolve without a designer?
 
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Speedwell

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so the flagellum is a spinning motor. even according to scientists. great. why we should believe that a motor can evolve without a designer?
It might have been designed, but there are also possible evolutionary pathways based on random variation and selection which would work.
 
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dmmesdale

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Repeating yourself that it's obvious doesn't make it evidence.
If a car is evidence of a factory and a suit is evidence of a tailor and you post is evidence of you then why is bacteria not evidence of intelligence? That being if it has the complexity of a Jumbo Jet according to the experts? Does a Jumbo jet self assemble?
No one is disputing that life is complicated, but the changes we observe from mutations and the winnowing we observe in form of selection are sufficient to account for the changes.
That sounds like another assertion absent one shred of evidence. What we observe is an increase overall in genetic load and species extinction.
''ge·net·ic load
noun
Biology
noun: genetic load
  1. the presence of unfavorable genetic material in the genes of a population.''
If you want to add extra processes that design or build life you need to demonstrate that they are necessary and/or possible.
Now you are shifting the burden. If the simplest life (bacteria) is as complicated as a jumbo jet, duplicates itself, has enormous amounts of front-loaded digital information, no known ancestors, cannot be broken down since the result is death and not simpler life then why are we to assume mutations or a host of nonintelligent random changes are sufficient enough to explain all these incredible complexities? Things do not move from simple to complex. They move from complex to simple. That is what we observe. If the proposed path is from chemicals to people, then the overall trajectory is from simple to complex.
The unusual characteristics of the Earth certainly allow for the environment for life like ours to exist, but in a universe of over a hundred billion galaxies with over a hundred billion stars in each, the concept of unlikely seems to fade away.
Speculation. There is a host of circumstances indicative of a design engineer, not natural processes. Earth is a set up for bio life. That easiest accounts for all the compiled facts given the options of A. Natural processes or B. Design Engineer.
Can you please define information and how you measure it in the context that you use?
They have ways of doing that, and I would have to look it up and if I can find it then so can you. Your above sentence is an example of complex specified information. Morse and binary code are two character examples, French, Latin, etc. all indicative of complex specified. DNA is four character code which can be mapped etc. Part of the argument goes if has high amounts of complex specified front-loaded information then that is the fingerprint of intelligence, not natural processes.
 
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JDD_III

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DNA is four character code which can be mapped etc.
And yet the problem for the materialist is even harder than this would suggest.

Not only is DNA a 3-letter code of information transmission but it is also such in 4-dimensions and multilayered.

So incredible is this that there have been protein-encoding sequences derived from overlapping codes in different reading frames that when translated turn out to be functional proteins that actually interact with the protein product of the canonically produced sequence they derive from.

Thus you have a protein produced from a DNA sequence, and another protein produced from within the same DNA sequence that have completely unrelated amino acid sequences amd they functionally interact.

Try to explain the natural selection process that enabled such a sequence to arrive in an unguided fashion.
 
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Speedwell

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Radrook

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I don't think anyone is disputing that it is a rotation mechanism.

But the concern is that an implication is: "It's a motor, so someone built it" as a premise rather then a conclusion from evidence.
What nullifies it as evidence?
 
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