Proof that the Book of Mormon is a fraud!!!

A New Dawn · Sep 16, 2004

CrownCaster said:
Hi,

I am not sure how this could be so. In the description of the translation process for the BOM, it was said that J.S. would put his head into the hat and out would come a parchment with the symbols and the translation written on them. They would disappear when and only when the piece was written down PERFECTLY. So, they could not even go on to the next word or sentence until it was done perfectly. Now, this has always confused me as there was so many grammatical errors in the original. Does this mean that God is unable to punctuate and spell correctly? If it is true that God would not allow the translation to continue until it was done perfectly, then that is what is being said here. Also, this would make the idea of man made mistakes obsolete. Thanks.

Apex- still waiting for some comment on the post I made. Thanks.

God did have to work within the boundaries of what the men who were transcribing knew. That is why the disclaimer is there. If the person transcribing was not aware of how to spell certain words, or didn't know the word at all (and if you look at a lot of books from that time period and it is not a unique problem to the BoM), they spelled them the best they knew how.

There are similar problems within the confines of the Bible. Am I supposed to throw out the whole Bible because of mistakes in translation that lead to jumbled sentences?

Doc T · Sep 16, 2004

happyinhisgrace said:
No, not that I am aware of. Why? Do you only acknowlege changing in text that alter the meaning of the passage if there are a certian number of changes?

No, I just wanted to make sure that if I listed them all that there were no more than these.

Doc

~

Doc T · Sep 16, 2004

happyinhisgrace said:
The fact is that the changes were made and those changes totally alter the meaning of the passage. So much for "the most correct book on the earth". I guess the mormon god could not get his own meaning right the first time.

Could you elucidate specifically which scriptures were changed and how those changes "totally alter[ed] the meaning of the passage."

Thanks

Doc

~

Fit4Christ · Sep 16, 2004

Jenda said:
God did have to work within the boundaries of what the men who were transcribing knew. That is why the disclaimer is there. If the person transcribing was not aware of how to spell certain words, or didn't know the word at all (and if you look at a lot of books from that time period and it is not a unique problem to the BoM), they spelled them the best they knew how.

There are similar problems within the confines of the Bible. Am I supposed to throw out the whole Bible because of mistakes in translation that lead to jumbled sentences?

It's amusing that for thousands of years, God never had to make a disclaimer about anything any one of His scribes wrote down. Then, all of a sudden, 170 or so years ago, He did need to. I believe that if JS was really insprired by God during his translation, God would have provided the means to get it right the first time without any such disclaimer. It's also amusing that you compare a lot of books from that time period with the BoM, seeing as how many outside the lds (or RLDS in your case) believe a few of those books were plagurized by or had a large degree of influence on JS in his dictation of the BoM.

Your comparisons of the translation processes of the BoM and Bible are invalid. First, the Bible is not translated by 1 person alone. All the translations I am aware of were done by a group of Biblical scholars, inlcuding the KJV that lds and rlds use. Second, not one translator or translation group of the Bible has ever claimed to stick their face in a hat to see what to write down in the translation process. Nor has any one of these translators ever stated that they could not move on until they had it written it correct. Lastly, if mistakes were made in the translation process of a Bible, there were Hebrew/Greek texts for someone to check their work by. Not so with the BoM.

jezusfreak · Sep 16, 2004

I will state this though,

Revelation 22

A Warning

18 For[1] I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add[2] to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away[3] his part from the Book[4] of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I believe in what the Bible says. The Bible is complete, from Gen to Revelations, and there is NO need to add to the Bible.

Anyone who adds or takes away from God's word, I will have NO PART in. So therefore Momonism is a falicy and a cult, and one in which I will have nothing to do with.

I stand by one, and one truth only. JESUS IS THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE. The Book of John calls Him the Word. He had fulfilled the Word in the Bible, and that which has yet to be fulfilled will be done so before He comes again, or when He comes again.

But all other books, no matter if it is the Koran, the Mormon book, the JW bible (which changes the truth) or any other book, does not testify to the truth of Christ. It is HIS WORD, the Bible from Gen to Rev, from start to finish, that is true.

It is to that that I live and testify. I will not be a part of any farce. Only truth.

AMEN and AMEN.
Genesis...1:1 "In the beginning"...in other words "once upon a time". The best part though is that it isn't a fairy tale.
Revelation 22:21 "....AMEN"...in other words...it is finished or it is done. Can't you see how the Bible starts in Genesis and ends in Revelation. It is the "COMPLETE" word of God FROM God!!!

jezusfreak · Sep 16, 2004

Apex said:
So this verse is reffering to the Bible???

It sure is...

The Bible did not exist when this was written. If the Bible did not exist when this was written then how could it refer to a book that did not exist?

Did God NOT exist until the Bible was written? God is the AUTHOR of the Bible...that is the point. It was inspired by his Spirit..NOT by men.

I personally belive that it means you should not add or take away from Gods teachings, not necisaraly the Bible.

Exactly...the Bible TEACHES God's teachings...so if you take away from it or ADD to it then you stand to be condemned as the book of Revelation states. It doesn't get any plainer than that.

And if you belive it means the Bible then what about the group of people who put the Bible together? They certinly added and subtracted from it. For some books were choosen to put into the Bible and others were not. Also God may add to his teachings whenever and whatever he wants.

Is God NOT ALL POWERFUL? Inspired of the Holy Spirit, the Bible was written as a guide for us in life. God is God...he can make men do whatever he wants. I'm sorry that you feel God is changing. The God of the BIble is NEVER changing. That is what the problem is with the world today...so many gods have been created in the minds of people so that he is what THEY want him to be. Yes God may add to them...but he doesn't. It was COMPLETED in the Bible.

happyinhisgrace · Sep 16, 2004

Doc T said:
Could you elucidate specifically which scriptures were changed and how those changes "totally alter[ed] the meaning of the passage."

Thanks

Doc

~

Doc, refer to to the link I provided. You can read if for yourself and see how the words changed the meaning.

happyinhisgrace · Sep 16, 2004

Doc T said:
No, I just wanted to make sure that if I listed them all that there were no more than these.

Doc

~

There may be more, I don't know. Those are the only ones I am aware of.

Doc T · Sep 16, 2004

happyinhisgrace said:
Doc, refer to to the link I provided. You can read if for yourself and see how the words changed the meaning.

I have. . . I did. . . and I don't see any change of meaning.

I'll be looking forward to your response.

Doc

~

happyinhisgrace · Sep 16, 2004

Doc T said:
I have. . . I did. . . and I don't see any change of meaning.

I'll be looking forward to your response.

Doc

~

Originally I tried to post the info on the link but it is in block form and did not post correctly to CF.

You don't see a difference in changing the words "God" to "the son of God"?

Doc T · Sep 16, 2004

happyinhisgrace said:
Originally I tried to post the info on the link but it is in block form and did not post correctly to CF.

You don't see a difference in changing the words "God" to "the son of God"?

I've had that problem myself. To answer your question. . .no not according to LDS theology. Christ is "God" and Christ is the "Son of God". So it looks like JS made a clairification for those who may read the BofM and not have this understanding.

Doc

~

CrownCaster · Sep 16, 2004

Jenda said:
God did have to work within the boundaries of what the men who were transcribing knew. That is why the disclaimer is there. If the person transcribing was not aware of how to spell certain words, or didn't know the word at all (and if you look at a lot of books from that time period and it is not a unique problem to the BoM), they spelled them the best they knew how.

There are similar problems within the confines of the Bible. Am I supposed to throw out the whole Bible because of mistakes in translation that lead to jumbled sentences?

but if it appeared on the parchment in perfect form you would just have to copy it verbatim. God would not spell it wrong.

CrownCaster · Sep 16, 2004

Apex, I will take this silence as being unaware of what to say. Thats okay. It is hard stuff to hear about something so dear to you. I know, it happened to me. If you would like to talk about them in a p.m. I would be happy to do so.

happyinhisgrace · Sep 16, 2004

Doc T said:
I've had that problem myself. To answer your question. . .no not according to LDS theology. Christ is "God" and Christ is the "Son of God". So it looks like JS made a clairification for those who may read the BofM and not have this understanding.

Doc

~

Doc, come on. No need to try and be sneaky with your words. LDS theology is that Jesus is A god, not God the Father or the "main" god of Mormonism. If Mormon belief was that Jesus is actually their God, then they would be praying to him and worshiping him in church, not just God the father. LDS do not believe they are the same God that are of the same essense, they believe they are 2 seperate gods that are one in purpose.

You are going to have to try harder than that to fool those of us who actually know what Mormons believe about God.

Serapha · Sep 16, 2004

Original 1830 Text

Current, Altered Text

1 Nephi 3, p. 25* And he said unto me, Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of God, after the manner of the flesh

[View the 1830 Book of Mormon text.]

*The 1830 text did not have verse divisions.

1 Nephi 11:18 And he said unto me, Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God.

1 Nephi 3, p. 25 And the angel said unto me, behold the Lamb of God, even the Eternal Father!

[View the 1830 Book of Mormon text.]

1 Nephi 11:21 And the angel said unto me, behold the Lamb of God, even the Son of the Eternal Father!

1 Nephi 3, p. 26 And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people; yea, the Everlasting God, was judged of the world.

[View the 1830 Book of Mormon text.]

1 Nephi 11:32 And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people; yea, the Son of the Everlasting God, was judged of the world.

1 Nephi 3, p. 32 These last records ... shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Eternal Father and the Savior of the world.

[View the 1830 Book of Mormon text.]

1 Nephi 13:40 These last records ... shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father and the Savior of the world.

Fit4Christ · Sep 16, 2004

Originally Posted by: Doc T

I've had that problem myself. To answer your question. . .no not according to LDS theology. Christ is "God" and Christ is the "Son of God". So it looks like JS made a clairification for those who may read the BofM and not have this understanding.

Doc

~

happyinhisgrace said:
Doc, come on. No need to try and be sneaky with your words. LDS theology is that Jesus is A god, not God the Father or the "main" god of Mormonism. If Mormon belief was that Jesus is actually their God, then they would be praying to him and worshiping him in church, not just God the father. LDS do not believe they are the same God that are of the same essense, they believe they are 2 seperate gods that are one in purpose.

You are going to have to try harder than that to fool those of us who actually know what Mormons believe about God.

Doc, where in your lds theology does it specifically say that Jesus Christ and God are one in the same? I'm pretty sure it was clarified on another recent thread (now probably buried somewhere ) that Jesus and God are 2 distinct personages. If not, that would putting it pretty close to a Trinity POV, and we know the lds don't subsribe to that. Besides, if you believe Jesus and God are one in the same, then what does that say about JS's first vision account where he claims to have seen both?? Was JS drunk and seeing double that night??

CrownCaster · Sep 16, 2004

happyinhisgrace said:
Doc, come on. No need to try and be sneaky with your words. LDS theology is that Jesus is A god, not God the Father or the "main" god of Mormonism. If Mormon belief was that Jesus is actually their God, then they would be praying to him and worshiping him in church, not just God the father. LDS do not believe they are the same God that are of the same essense, they believe they are 2 seperate gods that are one in purpose.

You are going to have to try harder than that to fool those of us who actually know what Mormons believe about God.

Doc, you really cant deny this and be honest about mormon theology. The LDS people have long viewed Jesus as one of many gods. Was He not according to your faith one of the many gods who attended the great council? What about Him appearing side by side in bodily form next to His Father to J.S.? This is foundational. I wont say that it is necessarily YOUR view but to be honest you must see that the LDS church has historically taught this view.

CrownCaster · Sep 16, 2004

Fit4Christ said:
Was JS drunk and seeing double that night??

I would imagine that comments like that wont open too many lines of communication. The LDS hold J.S. high in view and offending someone wont make them too quick to discuss the issues. Just my .02

Alma · Sep 16, 2004

Fit4Christ said:
[/i]

Fit4Christ said:
Doc, where in your lds theology does it specifically say that Jesus Christ and God are one in the same? I'm pretty sure it was clarified on another recent thread (now probably buried somewhere ) that Jesus and God are 2 distinct personages. If not, that would putting it pretty close to a Trinity POV, and we know the lds don't subsribe to that. Besides, if you believe Jesus and God are one in the same, then what does that say about JS's first vision account where he claims to have seen both?? Was JS drunk and seeing double that night??

I think you're having trouble perceiving LDS theology, Fit4. The Father and the Son both qualify as "God" in LDS theology. However, they don't qualify as the same being or person. Just as Stephen saw Jesus "standing on the right hand of the Father" Joseph Smith saw two persons. As far as LDS theology specifying that Jesus is God, try these verses:

THUS saith the Lord your God, even Jesus Christ, the Great I AM, Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the same which looked upon the wide expanse of eternity, and all the seraphic hosts of heaven, before the world was made; The same which knoweth all things, for all things are present before mine eyes; I am the same which spake, and the world was made, and all things came by me. (D&C 38:1-3)

There are lots of passages throughout LDS scripture indicating that Jesus is God. The claim that he is only "a god" comes from critics of Mormonism not Mormonism.

Alma

Apex · Sep 16, 2004

CrownCaster said:
Apex, I will take this silence as being unaware of what to say. Thats okay. It is hard stuff to hear about something so dear to you. I know, it happened to me. If you would like to talk about them in a p.m. I would be happy to do so.

What??? I havent really check in for a day or two so what did I miss?

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