Proof that God exists?

[Elioenai26]

And how do you know this is true?

Because I have tried it, many many many times, and found it to be the only true wisdom and knowledge which enlightens one's heart and mind.

Kind of like a light within a flashlight that you depend on so much when your power goes out during a severe thunderstorm.

 

[Elioenai26]

If I was heading in a wrong direction, I would want someone to save me straightaway, instead of tell lies about me, and only after being called on them repeatedly try and pretend to be concerned for me.

Stop trying to ingratiate yourself. You cocked this one up, Elioenai. Deal with it, instead of insisting that we owe you some response to this touchy-feely crap.

How are you going to be saved straightaway if you be unwilling?

 

[Danyc]

Because I have tried it, many many many times, and found it to be the only true wisdom and knowledge which enlightens one's heart and mind.

Why don't you expound upon this. Go a little further.

Tell me why the line in bold does not mean "made me feel good".

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Yes you are correct, "religion" can pretend to know and give answer to those important questions.

When you lump a living, loving, intimate relationship with Christ in with these "religions", you misconstrue what it means to be a disciple of Christ.

I for one agree with all of you in that religion is merely a means by which men attempt to answer those important questions of life. Some religions are closer to the truth than others. There is only one truth however, and that Truth has been the number one cause for division and unity amongst men for nearly 2,000 years.

I'm sure someone like you, but of a different faith, also feels that they are not part of a religion, but are in a living, loving relationship with their deity. The fact of the matter is that we call that religion. And it pretends to answer questions about life.

 

[Gadarene]

How are you going to be saved straightaway if you be unwilling?

Which hardly justifies the telling of the number of lies you did about atheists.

I know I'm a lot less unwilling than I would have been if you hadn't done that, if you had actually listened to those that you were witnessing to.

There's at least one Christian on this board who's gotten my story out of me - how did he manage that? Well, when he made a stupid mistake and implied that I wasn't interested in truth, I called him on it, he apologised. That at least indicated he had a modicum of humility, which was a good starting point.

Something you could stand to learn.

 

[Elioenai26]

Just not in any way that you can demonstrate, apparently. Does not this phrase mean anything to you?

Yes I know.

However, I do not have to demonstrate the things I am saying to you because you know them to be true.

That just begs the question: what makes "Why do we exist?" a valid question?

It is important because a good case can be made for stating that everyone wants to know why they exist! I cannot think of one person who has ever maintained the position of complete apathy as to why they are living and breathing and are conscious human beings.

Do you desire to know why you exist, or have you accepted the fact that you just do and that there is no answer or rhyme or reason behind your existence except that your parents decided to engage in sexual relations and as a result, you were born after approximately 9 months in your mother's womb?

<looks for a good case for such a question - sees none>

The fact that you have to look for a reason as to why the question: "Why do we exist?" is important is indicative of your unwillingness to see what has been made so clearly evident to all.

You said you would worship it, not me.

Did I? Where did I say this?

 

[Danyc]

Yes I know.

However, I do not have to demonstrate the things I am saying to you because you know them to be true.

Wait, what? You don't...have to?

Do you mean to say that you can, but you won't?

 

[Elioenai26]

Which hardly justifies the telling of the number of lies you did about atheists.

I know I'm a lot less unwilling than I would have been if you hadn't done that, if you had actually listened to those that you were witnessing to.

There's at least one Christian on this board who's gotten my story out of me - how did he manage that? Well, when he made a stupid mistake and implied that I wasn't interested in truth, I called him on it, he apologised. That at least indicated he had a modicum of humility, which was a good starting point.

Something you could stand to learn.

If telling you the truth is evidence of not being humble in your sight, then I am not humble nor ever will be in your sight.

We are to speak the truth in love. If in the process of doing this, you become resentful or offended by my words which are spoken in sincerity and truth, then the fault lies within you, not myself.

Christ offended a great many men while speaking to them the truth in love. So offended and jealous and envious and resentful of Him in fact, that they had Him crucified!

Yet He prayed for them, while they were nailing Him to the cross.

Therefore in this it is made manifest who is acting in love and who is responding in hate.

 

[Gadarene]

If telling you the truth is evidence of not being humble in your sight, then I am not humble nor ever will be in your sight.

We are to speak the truth in love. If in the process of doing this, you become resentful or offended by my words which are spoken in sincerity and truth, then the fault lies within you, not myself.

Christ offended a great many men while speaking to them the truth in love. So offended and jealous and envious and resentful of Him in fact, that they had Him crucified!

Yet He prayed for them, while they were nailing Him to the cross.

Therefore in this it is made manifest who is acting in love and who is responding in hate.

Given your demonstrated ineptitude with logic, I don't expect you to notice that offence also correpsonds with being wrong, so you receiving it has nothing necessarily to do with being truthful.

And in this case you aren't. You are making claims about the attitudes of atheists here that are simply not true and that you know nothing about.

If you want to keep repelling people from your faith - that's your lookout.

 

[Elioenai26]

Wait, what? You don't...have to?

Do you mean to say that you can, but you won't?

That is correct.

Many many people sought after proof and signs from Jesus as a confirmation of His claims upon their lives.

He responded to them by telling them a parable at the end of which, it is shown that if one is unwilling to receive and act according to the light and illumination that they have, then no sign or proof shall convince them.

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19&#8220;Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20&#8220;And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, 21and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man&#8217;s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. 22&#8220;Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham&#8217;s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23&#8220;In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24&#8220;And he cried out and said, &#8216;Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.&#8217; 25&#8220;But Abraham said, &#8216;Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26&#8216;And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.&#8217; 27&#8220;And he said, &#8216;Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father&#8217;s house&#8212; 28for I have five brothers&#8212;in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.&#8217; 29&#8220;But Abraham said, &#8216;They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.&#8217; 30&#8220;But he said, &#8216;No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!&#8217; 31&#8220;But he said to him, &#8216;If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.&#8217;&#8221; Luke 16:19-31

Italics, underlining, and bolding mine.

 

[Gadarene]

That is correct.

Many many people sought after proof and signs from Jesus as a confirmation of His claims upon their lives.

He responded to them by telling them a parable at the end of which, it is shown that if one is unwilling to receive and act according to the light and illumination that they have, then no sign or proof shall convince them.

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19“Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20“And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, 21and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. 22“Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23“In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24“And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ 25“But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ 27“And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— 28for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29“But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30“But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31“But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Italics and bold mine.

Ah, these excuses are always hilarious.

In this case, the Bible self-refutes. There is plenty of Biblical evidence that people converted on seeing miracles, so this claim is an utter nonsense.

 

[Danyc]

That is correct.

Many many people sought after proof and signs from Jesus as a confirmation of His claims upon their lives.

He responded to them by telling them a parable at the end of which, it is shown that if one is unwilling to receive and act according to the light and illumination that they have, then no sign or proof shall convince them.

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19“Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20“And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, 21and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. 22“Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23“In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24“And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ 25“But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ 27“And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— 28for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29“But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30“But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31“But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’” Luke 16:19-31

Italics, underlining, and bolding mine.

So you actually believe that if I saw a miracle for myself, express evidence of God's existence, I wouldn't believe?

And this is why you do not demonstrate for me? Because it would not make any difference?

I am irrevocably lost?

So why did you even come here, Elio? What was the damn point?

Did you think some philosophical argument would convince us more efficiently than a real demonstration?

I am just about fed up with you. And so, I think, is everyone else.

 

[Gadarene]

So you actually believe that if I saw a miracle for myself, express evidence of God's existence, I wouldn't believe?

And this is why you do not demonstrate for me? Because it would not make any difference?

I am irrevocably lost?

So why did you even come here, Elio? What was the damn point?

Did you think some philosophical argument would convince us more efficiently than a real demonstration?

I am just about fed up with you. And so, I think, is everyone else.

Precisely. If nothing can be presented either demonstratively or philosophically then this has just been one long exercise in self-aggrandising for our apologist wannabe.

 

[Elioenai26]

Given your demonstrated ineptitude with logic, I don't expect you to notice that offence also correpsonds with being wrong, so you receiving it has nothing necessarily to do with being truthful.

And in this case you aren't. You are making claims about the attitudes of atheists here that are simply not true and that you know nothing about.

If you want to keep repelling people from your faith - that's your lookout.

You know Gadarene, I could respond in kind to you, but I wont.

Just know that there are people who care for you and want to see you do good in life.

Telling you the truth in love is my duty, yea, it is my delight and pleasure to help you.

But I cannot make you surrender your life to Christ, that is something that you must choose to do.

I pray you find The Way.

 

[Elioenai26]

Precisely. If nothing can be presented either demonstratively or philosophically then this has just been one long exercise in self-aggrandising for our apologist wannabe.

I present myself, I am at your disposal. Do with me what you will, I desire only your profit, your benefit, your salvation.

 

[Gadarene]

You know Gadarene, I could respond in kind to you, but I wont.

Just know that there are people who care for you and want to see you do good in life.

Telling you the truth in love is my duty, yea, it is my delight and pleasure to help you.

But I cannot make you surrender your life to Christ, that is something that you must choose to do.

I pray you find The Way.

If you really cared, you wouldn't have lied about us. And if you actually are a representative of Christ, I want nothing - nothing at all - to do with it. That is your fault. That is your responsibility.

 

[Elioenai26]

So you actually believe that if I saw a miracle for myself, express evidence of God's existence, I wouldn't believe?

And this is why you do not demonstrate for me? Because it would not make any difference?

I am irrevocably lost?

So why did you even come here, Elio? What was the damn point?

Did you think some philosophical argument would convince us more efficiently than a real demonstration?

I am just about fed up with you. And so, I think, is everyone else.

The point is simply that if you are not willing to see the truth, then no one can show it to you.

 

[Tiberius]

God speaks reality as we know it into existence, and then speaks to us in His word's.

This is the only true illumination, this is the knowledge and wisdom which comes from above and is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. James 3:17

And once again we have a quote from the Bible.

You may not be properly understanding what I am asking.

Going just from what you can see for yourself in reality, how would you reach the conclusion that God existed?

 

[Elioenai26]

If you really cared, you wouldn't have lied about us. And if you actually are a representative of Christ, I want nothing - nothing at all - to do with it. That is your fault. That is your responsibility.

If I have lied, bear witness of the lie, if not, then why do you falsely accuse me?

 

[Gadarene]

The point is simply that if you are not willing to see the truth, then no one can show it to you.

No-one is even trying seriously, because they're too busy lying about us to even start.