Proof that Gay Relationships are Wrong

[MKJ]

As far as the idea that the Fathers and Paul were commenting only on rather depraved aspects of homosexual behavior, I don't think that is a fair statement, though in some cases that seems to be the kind of activity under discussion.

But many of the Fathers had read Plato, for example, who discussed a much more loving and affectionate kind of homosexual relationship, suggesting even that a real loving relationship between men and women was difficult because of disparities in their education and experience. So some of the Fathers at least were familiar with his writings, and I can only think that they also say such examples in real life.

I think, for me, the main thing to take from what the church teaches about homosexuality, and really marriage and love in general, is that love is not, for Christians, an emotional connection, but an act of the will; that many people are called to vocations other than marriage and therefore celibate lives; and even within marriage there is much call for continence, abstinence, and self-control. Sometimes God seems to give us a choice in the matter, other times, he doesn't. Each of these states have their own difficulties and consolations, marriage is not without difficulties of it's own, including sometimes being sexually active when the person doesn't "feel" like it, which seldom is held up as a burden comparable with celibacy, though I'm not sure that it isn't.

 

[ArmyMatt]

love is not, for Christians, an emotional connection, but an act of the will

yeah, the best definition of what love is that I have heard, is that it is doing to the highest good of another, even at the sacrifice of the self. the Church has made it clear that as far as acting on physical attraction, the highest good is between a husband and a wife.

 

[cobweb]

Even married couples are often expected to practice self control and abstain for over half of the year (fasts).

 

[Barky]

Looks like what is written in the Bible really doesn't matter to you at all, Justin. May God be with you, but you are living a delusion, just as the Bible says. You do not belong in Orthodoxy with attitudes like this. I hope you change your mind, someday, but it looks like you are throwing a blind eye to whatever we say here.

YES!!!

Thank you for posting this. How many times have we had this conversation with Justin? How many times have we given him the same answers? Justin is a smart guy, he knows what we say is true about the Church. You don't have to look very far to see that homosexual relations is wrong, that's for sure. perhaps I should make one post and just copy/paste it every time Justin makes this thread.

Justin, you're struggling, we know this. However, this seeking of justification has got to stop. Lord have Mercy.

 

[Barky]

yeah, the best definition of what love is that I have heard, is that it is doing to the highest good of another, even at the sacrifice of the self. the Church has made it clear that as far as acting on physical attraction, the highest good is between a husband and a wife.

I would argue that love simply is self sacrifice. It is the natural response of love in a person. If there is not self sacrifice, there is not love.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

Justin, you're struggling, we know this. However, this seeking of justification has got to stop. Lord have Mercy.

Keep in mind: delusions are always a part of struggling with any temptation or passion.

M.

 

[127.0.0.1]

I'm a tad shocked that some people here would be willing to reduce the concept of love to a series of actions. Is that all love is to you? A bunch of robot motions? Certainly God's Love for us is more than just a bunch of actions! I would argue that it is not possible to fully understand what love itself it; it is a mystery.


PS
I read the Rudder that was put of for dl, it does mention homosexuality in there, interesting how the Greek word that is used is different than the one I'm familiar with.

PPS
Sin is anything you do that severs your relationship with God. Anything you do that self-negates your own calling towards Theosis, is a sin. Evil is anything you do to negate the Theosis of another. That is what I was told.

 

[Barky]

I'm a tad shocked that some people here would be willing to reduce the concept of love to a series of actions. Is that all love is to you? A bunch of robot motions? Certainly God's Love for us is more than just a bunch of actions! I would argue that it is not possible to fully understand what love itself it; it is a mystery.


PS
I read the Rudder that was put of for dl, it does mention homosexuality in there, interesting how the Greek word that is used is different than the one I'm familiar with.

PPS
Sin is anything you do that severs your relationship with God. Anything you do that self-negates your own calling towards Theosis, is a sin. Evil is anything you do to negate the Theosis of another. That is what I was told.

True love is stone cold sober. It is not a bunch of warm feelings or drunk emotionality. This is one of the things that gets shoved down our throats in American culture, that love is all about emotion. In reality, it has very little to do with emotion. When that honey moon wears off is when all that emotion becomes bankrupt, and you better be <staff edit> sure you have a concrete foundation in God. True love is a struggle, filled with blood. Is this not what Christ showed us on the cross? It is not what you find in romance movies or novels, it is not what is on tv. True Love never fails.

Also, love on a certain level is actions. That is how we manifest our love is by sacrifice, an action. Anything else is false.

 

[cobweb]

True love is stone cold sober. It is not a bunch of warm feelings or drunk emotionality. This is one of the things that gets shoved down our throats in American culture, that love is all about emotion. In reality, it has very little to do with emotion. When that honey moon wears off is when all that emotion becomes bankrupt, and you better be <staff edit> sure you have a concrete foundation in God. True love is a struggle, filled with blood. It is not what you find in romance movies or novels, it is not what is on tv. True Love never fails.

Also, love on a certain level is actions. That is how we manifest our love is by sacrifice, an action. Anything else is false.

Amen. Romantic feelings and sexual attraction are not the same as love.

Love is sacrifice. It is getting up at 3 am to clean up vomit when they are sick even though you are exhausted. It is overlooking all of those annoying habits for decades. It is being completely faithful even though they have lost their hair or sight of their feet.

The butterflies in the pit of your stomach go away after a while (although they do occasionally pop up now and then). They rarely are enough to keep a couple together for a decade, much less 5 or 6. Ask any couple who has celebrated their golden wedding anniversary and they will probably tell you the same thing.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

I'm a tad shocked that some people here would be willing to reduce the concept of love to a series of actions. Is that all love is to you? A bunch of robot motions? Certainly God's Love for us is more than just a bunch of actions! I would argue that it is not possible to fully understand what love itself it; it is a mystery.

I don't see anyone saying that love is only a series of actions. Romance is wonderful and it helps people bond. It is just like when your baby is just born and they are so beautiful and luminous and perfect. Then comes the poop, the spit-up, the crying, the sleepless nights, the struggle to nurse through pain, etc. It is not always fun to love your child and it is certainly not always pretty.

Marriage is the same. There are fun, pleasurable parts, but let's face it: most of the time is spent talking about bills, taxes, getting to church on time, the kid's school, the in-laws coming, the roof repair, his job, my job, what to make for coffee hour, Sally's cough, etc. etc. Sure, there is physical intimacy and date nights, but the vast majority of the time, married people spend their days serving each other and their children. And that is love.

M.

 

[Dorothea]

I don't see anyone saying that love is only a series of actions. Romance is wonderful and it helps people bond. It is just like when your baby is just born and they are so beautiful and luminous and perfect. Then comes the poop, the spit-up, the crying, the sleepless nights, the struggle to nurse through pain, etc. It is not always fun to love your child and it is certainly not always pretty.

Marriage is the same. There are fun, pleasurable parts, but let's face it: most of the time is spent talking about bills, taxes, getting to church on time, the kid's school, the in-laws coming, the roof repair, his job, my job, what to make for coffee hour, Sally's cough, etc. etc. Sure, there is physical intimacy and date nights, but the vast majority of the time, married people spend their days serving each other and their children. And that is love.

M.

Boy, you got that right.

 

[Kristos]

I think once a month there should be a designated "hug day" and you MUST give everyone you know a big hug, friend and foe.

 

[127.0.0.1]

Certainly love manifests itself in many ways, and it shows itself to us in many different forms. One such manifestation being actions. All I'm saying is that actions alone doesn't completely cover it; they we can never hope to understand what love really is...fully. I'm not reducing love to emotions or sexual initimacy (though they are a few of its many manifestations). I'm saying love is best thought of as a mystery, something that we can never hope to completely understand, just like we, with out little human minds, can never completely understand God (in fact His essense is unkowable).

 

[Andrew21091]

Justin, you must know that everyone here loves and cares about you. You asked for proof of where it teaching homosexuality is wrong and I provided quotes from the Holy Scriptures and from the Fathers. It is all there in black and white. You cannot twist Orthodoxy the way you want it as others have said. The Church can't change but we have to change for the Church and for our love of Jesus Christ. I've seen many people have been very loving to you and then you say that we are intolerant; in a sense that is true that Orthodoxy is intolerant toward any kind of sin weather it be theft, murder, adultery, masturbation, abortion, pride, hate, you get the idea but we aren't intolerant to you. We have to work hard towards God and it is going to be hard but we have to endure all things for our love of God.

Forgive me Justin if I have ever been unloving, intolerant, or insensitive to you. I really don't mean to be and nobody here does, everyone tries their best to help you but you have to be patient to human weakness, especially mine.

 

[127.0.0.1]

I think once a month there should be a designated "hug day" and you MUST give everyone you know a big hug, friend and foe.

Australia already beat us to it. They have a national snuggling day. Something we overworked and overstressed Americans could certainly use.

 

[buzuxi02]

Was Jesus' main message not "love your neighbor?" I mean at this point in our world God's main message is that we need to love one another. In doing so we are human and are bound to fall a little deeper for certain people. Whether that person is the same sex as you or not, love is love. As a Christian I find it is my responsibility to uphold my faith and live by grace. My role is not to judge and tell someone the way they love is wrong. If you ask me most herteosexual relationships are shams so why not embrace the one person you can truly love regardless of race, sex, or personal beliefs.

This is why in my first response I said that "Love" is not mentioned in the Orthodox crowning ceremony accept a couple of quick references in the betrothal part. This divine Love has nothing to do with how we understand love today. In modern usage love is simply a marketing gimmick, a mythical concept just like the easter bunny, used to justify immoral behavior. This notion of love has been further complicated in english as it translates a number of greek words as 'love". Words like eros and philia and storge. Ayape has nothing to do with the passions of the flesh as your describing above.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Justin, this must be very hard for you.. I'm sorry. I just wanted to say... I don't know what the Orthodox teaching is on this, but I think it must be very similar if not exactly like the Catholic teaching:
sex is not just an expression of love between two people.... it also leads to a new life, a child. Just like God created the world with love... so are we created, out of the love of two people, our parents. And God creates our souls directly...
even if a homosexual couple gets married, it would not be in Church... so it would not be a sacramental marriage...
but even more than this, - sex between two men or two women..can't produce children. Christianity would say, this goes against natural law... God made us male and female, Adam and Eve. Marriage is for having children as well as for love.

Sorry if I've said anything wrong.

God bless.

 

[Memento Mori]

I hope it is okay for me to post here.

Justin, I live with the same sexual orientation you do. It sucks. It really, really does. But the worst thing, I've learned, is to try to justify it. I've tried that, but it's not real. It's a fantasy, a lie, a self-deception. If you want to be happy, you have to learn to live with this because it is not going to go away and it is not going to become right or natural either. Seek the Lord's face, reach out for the hem of His garment.

Jesus is the only beloved you and I are meant to have.

 

[Michael G]

Was Jesus' main message not "love your neighbor?" I mean at this point in our world God's main message is that we need to love one another. In doing so we are human and are bound to fall a little deeper for certain people. Whether that person is the same sex as you or not, love is love. As a Christian I find it is my responsibility to uphold my faith and live by grace. My role is not to judge and tell someone the way they love is wrong. If you ask me most herteosexual relationships are shams so why not embrace the one person you can truly love regardless of race, sex, or personal beliefs.

I am sorry, but homosexual love is completely disordered. Justifying evil can never make the evil right, it can only make the evil even more painful to the person caught up in it in the end. Loving ones neighbor means having the guts to look them in the eye when they are caught in sin and challenging them to look to Christ and live a Christian life.

 

[Spiritus7]

I think it's important not to forget that being gay is not who you are. It is a battle that you struggle with, a distortion of God's intended purpose for sexual relations within the covenant of marriage. Don't let this sin become your identity. Christ is your identity, you are made new in Him. You must truly believe that Christ is the living God who was incarnate and took on human flesh to overcome all sin and death, not just the ones that are easy to overcome, but the temptation of homosexuality as well.

That is something that I have difficulty with, we all do. Christ overcame every aspect of our fallen nature, to the point of complete isolation from God the father, in a way we cannot comprehend. (How could the Lord isolate Himself from Himself, for he is God?) He overcame this so that we could be made perfect in Him. The Lord loves you Justin, and He will overcome this for you, you just have to receive the grace. My prayers are with you, my brother.